What do you think about WoW?


Lapalabrasinfin
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God and the bishop (and the bishop will only ask you if your a full tithe payer or not).

 

 

Unless of course the bishop has reason to believe that you are not...  Then you could find yourself in for a more in depth interview on the matter, and result of that could be more formal actions

 

Same with the Word of Wisdom.  You'll get asked if you live the Word of Wisdom... but if the bishop believes that you are not... Then you could find yourself in for a more in depth interview on the matter, and result of that could be more formal actions.

 

Pay your Tithing as you wish... live the Word of Wisdom as you wish.. but if you are too far out of harmony with the church's positions on the subjects... Don't be surprised if comes back on you. 

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I've been down this road Duff....and I have a warning post to my credit because of it.

 

 

let the dog lie, your not going to get anywhere.......

 

As a side note, we can look at the law of tithing as a perfect example of the leaders of the church allowing us to decide the interpretation of the law. People will go back and forth on as to what is and what is not considered a full  tithe, but the bottom line is that it is between you, God and the bishop (and the bishop will only ask you if your a full tithe payer or not).

 

haha Yes, I think we've all explained ourselves several times now.  No point in going round in circles!

 

Tithing is a good example, thanks for bringing it up.  

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Unless of course the bishop has reason to believe that you are not...  Then you could find yourself in for a more in depth interview on the matter, and result of that could be more formal actions

 

Same with the Word of Wisdom.  You'll get asked if you live the Word of Wisdom... but if the bishop believes that you are not... Then you could find yourself in for a more in depth interview on the matter, and result of that could be more formal actions.

 

Pay your Tithing as you wish... live the Word of Wisdom as you wish.. but if you are too far out of harmony with the church's positions on the subjects... Don't be surprised if comes back on you. 

The current policy on the WoW is pretty cut and dry, you will not hear any arguments from me on that front.

 

The church is very ambiguous in their wording of the law of tithing, but that is subject for another discussion, Barring some hesitation form me or questions about tithing I dare my bishop to question me on my calculation.

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The current policy on the WoW is pretty cut and dry, you will not hear any arguments from me on that front.

 

The church is very ambiguous in their wording of the law of tithing, but that is subject for another discussion, Barring some hesitation form me or questions about tithing I dare my bishop to question me on my calculation.

 

 

But by your very comment you recognize that the Word of Wisdom is clearly defined (at least in the parts the Church might act upon).

 

And you also recognize that the Bishop is not just limited to asking one question on either subject if he felt it was necessary

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hmmm commanded to sustain our leaders? I don't think I've read that specifically anywhere.  I suppose we sustain them if we agree that they would be good for the job, and oppose if we feel they wouldn't be.

So is it correct to say that you think "sustaining your leaders" means deciding whether they're fit for their calling?

 

Do you think "sustaining" your leaders obligates you do do anything?

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Estradling, I don;t know if you are or have ever been a bishop. I am not nor have been. I think that when tithing comes up its either a yes or a no. Others can elaborate.

 

I can't see a situation in which you are questioned further about it because that would delve into specifically how you should pay Gross/net/income less expenses/ whats included whats not, what about retirement income 401k, IRAS, social security, gains and losses etc, etc?

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Even if we take it at face value that we have such a culture, why is it "much to our detriment". Can you support that?

Sure. The culture of GA worship leads to more time and attention spent talking about following the prophet than following Christ. In my experience, (maybe everyone else has had it differently) I've had more lessons about obedience to the prophet than about Christ. That's troubling to me.

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That you do not realize that the way we follow Christ is, in part at least, by following the prophet is disturbing.

We'll have countless lessons talking about how great a certain prophet or apostle was/is without a mention of Christ. That truly is disturbing. The follow the leaders mantra has gone too far. It's an important principle, but not when it's taken to the extreme it has been.
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It isn't. Because, just like a Tibetan monk will not allow you to kill the earthworm because of his faith, such works FOLLOW as a result of faith. Therefore, what faith does a Tibetan monk really have if he crushes an earthworm with a shovel? Yet, a Tibetan monk who refuses to crush an earthworm, not because of his faith but because... he likes wiggly things... still has no faith. But see... crushing earthworms is a Thou Shalt Not in the same manner as drinking coffee is. Therefore, if one drinks coffee, it is not the work that is the problem... it is the faith. Faith in Christ whose mouthpiece are the Prophets.

;)

 

Argumentative word play -- and dangerous to express in spite of the accuracy (maybe*) of it.

 

The point, plain and simple, is that if one knowingly disregards a commandment (disobedience), even one that may seem as immaterial as coffee intake, one disqualifies oneself from salvation. 

 

*As the the maybe accuracy -- I personally disagree with this view of faith. Works don't follow faith. Works are faith. But that's another topic entirely.

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Estradling, I don;t know if you are or have ever been a bishop. I am not nor have been. I think that when tithing comes up its either a yes or a no. Others can elaborate.

 

I can't see a situation in which you are questioned further about it because that would delve into specifically how you should pay Gross/net/income less expenses/ whats included whats not, what about retirement income 401k, IRAS, social security, gains and losses etc, etc?

 

You have been totally missing my point... You like to claim that it is just between you and the Lord.  While that is important you can not be a good member of the church and not also be accountable to the church.

 

For example tithing

 

Have you ever been to a tithing settlement?  If so you know the bishop has a piece of paper with your contributions for the year in front of him when you declare as a full tithe payer.  Assuming he can do basic math he is going to see quite easily if the number is 0 or really much lower then what might reasonably be expected.

 

If he sees such a case then he should very well ask further questions to make sure the member understands the point and purpose of tithing.  That is one of the many aspects of his calling and stewardship.  If he doesn't like the answers given it is also within his stewardship to act on that information.

 

For example Word of Wisdom... You are asked if you "Live the Word of Wisdom" for the temple recommend.  There are many ways one could parse the word of wisdom to get a yes (just like there are many ways to parse tithing to get an answer you like). You might feel your answer is acceptable to God.  But if your answers/actions etc raise concerns with the local church leaders you are going to need an answer acceptable to them as well.  Calling them wrong or in error or whatever just deepens the issue.  

 

Not a problem if you are looking to leave the church... but a bit of a problem if you want to stay.

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Sure. The culture of GA worship leads to more time and attention spent talking about following the prophet than following Christ.

 

How is that problematic if the prophet's are the voice of Christ on the earth? That's like saying we should spend more time delving into personal revelation that into scripture study. We should be doing both. There is no conflict with following our leaders and following Christ. They represent Him.

 

 

In my experience, (maybe everyone else has had it differently) I've had more lessons about obedience to the prophet than about Christ. That's troubling to me.

 

By the same vein of thought, lessons about following the prophet (I've never heard it phrased "obedience" to the prophet in any lesson I've seen or read) are lessons about following Christ. So are lessons about tithing, word of wisdom, home teaching, fasting, temple worship, keeping the Sabbath holy, etc., etc., etc.

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Whenever I hear people talking about blindly following the prophets, what I really hear is, "I don't want to do anything inconvenient or uncomfortable, and anyone who does is a sucker."

That's a very unfair characterization.

 

I don't accept everything that's uttered from the mouth of a GA as the very word of God.  How could I?  Church history has taught me that I should not do that.  My logic and reason won't allow me too.

 

I follow every commandment of the Gospel.  My lifestyle has not changed, just my way of viewing the prophets/leaders of the church.

 

If anyone fails to tow the line of mainstream thought/doctrine/policy they are labeled as a heathen who wants to sin.  We have to allow more freedom of thought and discussion within the church.

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I don't accept everything that's uttered from the mouth of a GA as the very word of God.  

 

 

Cite your source.  I have heard many Prophets and Church Leaders take the exact opposite position...   The closest I have seen to this is the Statement that the Prophet will not lead the church astray from the oracle of God...  Which is no where near being an official source saying everything uttered is the word of God

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How is that problematic if the prophet's are the voice of Christ on the earth? That's like saying we should spend more time delving into personal revelation that into scripture study. We should be doing both. There is no conflict with following our leaders and following Christ. They represent Him.

 

 

 

By the same vein of thought, lessons about following the prophet (I've never heard it phrased "obedience" to the prophet in any lesson I've seen or read) are lessons about following Christ. So are lessons about tithing, word of wisdom, home teaching, fasting, temple worship, keeping the Sabbath holy, etc., etc., etc.

A study of Church History shows that the Prophet speaking is not the same as Christ speaking.  Christ doesn't make mistakes - church leaders have made mistakes.

I don't have a problem with studying the words of prophets.  It's the obsession that is bothering me.

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Cite your source.  I have heard many Prophets and Church Leaders take the exact opposite position...   The closest I have seen to this is the Statement that the Prophet will not lead the church astray from the oracle of God...  Which is no where near being an official source saying everything uttered is the word of God

 

I don't mean that his casual conversation with his wife is believed to be the word of God.  I mean I don't believe that every talk a GA gives (in his position as Prophet/Apostle) is the word of God - which does seem to be a main belief within the Church.

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Argumentative word play -- and dangerous to express in spite of the accuracy (maybe*) of it.

 

The point, plain and simple, is that if one knowingly disregards a commandment (disobedience), even one that may seem as immaterial as coffee intake, one disqualifies oneself from salvation. 

 

*As the the maybe accuracy -- I personally disagree with this view of faith. Works don't follow faith. Works are faith. But that's another topic entirely.

We don't disagree about knowingly disregarding a commandment. We disagree on whether all instances of drinking coffee is knowingly disregarding a commandment. That is left between the individual and his bishop.

But yes, saying I'm going to drink coffee because "Follow the Prophet" is over-rated leads one to question one's faith... hence the discussion...

Works follow faith. Having faith is the beginning of one's life in Christ.

But really... this discussion doesn't belong here.

Edited by anatess
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We'll have countless lessons talking about how great a certain prophet or apostle was/is without a mention of Christ. That truly is disturbing. The follow the leaders mantra has gone too far. It's an important principle, but not when it's taken to the extreme it has been.

 

Maybe we need to be taught what we don't seem to universally understand.

 

But bull anyhow. In the Sunday School manual, pretty much, all 46 lessons are on Christ, directly. In the Teachings of the Presidents for the year there is fully one lesson on following the living prophet. ONE! And even it speaks about Jesus Christ. Otherwise we have a wide gamut of topics -- everything from prayer to agency to chastity to repentance, etc.

 

I would dare bet that you could go through the lessons in this manual and would not find a single one that did not mention Christ in multiples. Many of the lessons therein are direct teachings of His. (Prayer, agency, repentance, the word, missionary work, etc., etc.)

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You have been totally missing my point... You like to claim that it is just between you and the Lord.  While that is important you can not be a good member of the church and not also be accountable to the church.

 

For example tithing

 

Have you ever been to a tithing settlement?  If so you know the bishop has a piece of paper with your contributions for the year in front of him when you declare as a full tithe payer.  Assuming he can do basic math he is going to see quite easily if the number is 0 or really much lower then what might reasonably be expected.

 

If he sees such a case then he should very well ask further questions to make sure the member understands the point and purpose of tithing.  That is one of the many aspects of his calling and stewardship.  If he doesn't like the answers given it is also within his stewardship to act on that information.

 

For example Word of Wisdom... You are asked if you "Live the Word of Wisdom" for the temple recommend.  There are many ways one could parse the word of wisdom to get a yes (just like there are many ways to parse tithing to get an answer you like). You might feel your answer is acceptable to God.  But if your answers/actions etc raise concerns with the local church leaders you are going to need an answer acceptable to them as well.  Calling them wrong or in error or whatever just deepens the issue.  

 

Not a problem if you are looking to leave the church... but a bit of a problem if you want to stay.

Sure I've been to tithing settlement, many times.

 

I am sure my Bishop can do basic math, but the question is 10% of what? How could he possibly know what your increase is? How you calculate it or what it should be unless he is also your accountant and even then you might disagree. Should he look to see what kind of car your driving, the cloths you wear and then look at your contributions and decide that it wasn't enough? No not likely

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Sure I've been to tithing settlement, many times.

 

I am sure my Bishop can do basic math, but the question is 10% of what? How could he possibly know what your increase is? How you calculate it or what it should be unless he is also your accountant and even then you might disagree. Should he look to see what kind of car your driving, the cloths you wear and then look at your contributions and decide that it wasn't enough? No not likely

 

 

Way to miss my point

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A study of Church History shows that the Prophet speaking is not the same as Christ speaking.  Christ doesn't make mistakes - church leaders have made mistakes.

 

This concept is entirely irrelevant to the principle. Following the prophet is a principle of right that must be exercised with faith regardless of the imperfections of the prophet. And we will be held accountable for our disregarding of the living prophet's words.

 

Moreover, following the prophet is a different concept entirely than agreeing with everything he says (perhaps also, slightly problematic in other ways, but a different issue.)

 

Ordaining a man of African decent before the 1978 proclamation, whether the ban was inspired or not, meant excommunication, loss of temple blessings, loss of the Holy Ghost, and loss of exaltation without repentance.

 

Likewise, disregarding the word of wisdom, even if one takes the liberal approach that it was never meant to be enforced (I call total baloney on that...but for the sake of argument...), means the same.

 

It's the obsession that is bothering me.

 

I, on the other hand, am bothered by the ideology that strict obedience is thought of as "obsession".

 

Well so be it. If you call me obsessed for strictly keeping the word of wisdom, I'll own it. I am obsessed with obedience to every principle, law, ordinance, and teaching of the gospel.

 

 

Not sure why that would bother anyone though...unless they were intent on tearing down the kingdom, raising up Satan, allowing for free indulgence of sin with no consequence, or otherwise trying to push related agendas. You say that's not your intent...but if that is the case, then why would it possibly "bother" you that anyone is obsessed with doing right per the prophet's guidance? 

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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I don't mean that his casual conversation with his wife is believed to be the word of God.  I mean I don't believe that every talk a GA gives (in his position as Prophet/Apostle) is the word of God - which does seem to be a main belief within the Church.

 

 

Again... cite your source...  You have an opinion...  And to summarize your opinion is that members of the church are not listening to what the leaders are saying and yet hold them up as speaking the word of God.  Which means at best you have a case of hypocrisy among some members.  Which the GA's address as best they can to a group that is bound to hear only what they want to hear.

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If the point is that we should obey the word of wisdom in its entirety I agree, if your point is that the bishop should know what my increase is, or be able to make a fat mans guess and grill me appropriately I disagree.

 

Technically, the bishop has the right to inspiration and to deny a temple recommend based on nothing but said inspiration, and to grill anyone he feels so inspired to grill on said revelation, regardless of your defensive posturing.

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