What do you think about WoW?


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Posted · Hidden by estradling75, March 9, 2015 - No reason given
Hidden by estradling75, March 9, 2015 - No reason given

Interesting that you say that, because I think follow the prophet has nothing whatsoever to do with the two great commandments. I think it has everything to do with our own personal relationship with God.

The follow the prophet mantra is way over done and excessive in my opinion.

I have one question for you:

How often do u worship Satan?

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Posted · Hidden by estradling75, March 9, 2015 - No reason given
Hidden by estradling75, March 9, 2015 - No reason given

Interesting that you say that, because I think follow the prophet has nothing whatsoever to do with the two great commandments. I think it has everything to do with our own personal relationship with God.

The follow the prophet mantra is way over done and excessive in my opinion.

I have one question for you:

How often do u worship Satan?

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Posted · Hidden by pam, March 9, 2015 - No reason given
Hidden by pam, March 9, 2015 - No reason given

Interesting that you say that, because I think follow the prophet has nothing whatsoever to do with the two great commandments. I think it has everything to do with our own personal relationship with God.

The follow the prophet mantra is way over done and excessive in my opinion.

I have one question for you:

How often do u worship Satan?

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My grandfather who was born in 1910 and raised on a farm was a closet coffee drinker his whole life. He had to be because once they made it question to be eligible to enter the temple he had to lie about it.

No, he didn't. He could have told the truth. And he could also have stopped drinking coffee.

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Because I feel the follow the prophet theme is overdone? Mormonism is much more than believing in and having a prophet. To me it represents a belief in the divinity of man and our own personal connection to God. LDS theology exalts mankind. Following the prophet has little to nothing to do with that. I recently read Givens book "The Crucible of Doubt". He talks a lot about how we have a culture of hero worship towards our leaders. He even points out how past prophets have been concerned with the rhetoric of blind adherence.

You can believe all that without having to be LDS. Priesthood Authority - especially that of the Prophet - is what differentiates LDS from "my own version of the LDS religion".

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Because I feel the follow the prophet theme is overdone? Mormonism is much more than believing in and having a prophet. To me it represents a belief in the divinity of man and our own personal connection to God. LDS theology exalts mankind. Following the prophet has little to nothing to do with that. I recently read Givens book "The Crucible of Doubt". He talks a lot about how we have a culture of hero worship towards our leaders. He even points out how past prophets have been concerned with the rhetoric of blind adherence.

 

I've read the Crucible of Doubt and I would never recommend that book to someone who might be struggling.  I even went to a Book Club on this with other LDS ladies. We were all in agreement that this isn't a book we would recommend because of that.  We felt that it would put more doubts into someone who already had some doubts or misunderstandings.

 

Some of our reasons are the same things you are using here to rationalize your way of thinking.

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Surely no one here thinks they can claim to me a member in good standing of any organization... If they willingly and willfully defy what that organization requires to be a member in good standing.  No matter what historical events they might try to cite about how the organization has changed it requirements in the pass.

 

And just as surely no one here on this site which is dedicated and focused on being good members of that organization... Should expect to be supported in running counter to the requirements that organization currently has. 

I'm not supporting anyone whatever someone decides to do that is between them God and their bishop.

 

Historical context is important in every aspect of life.

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You can believe all that without having to be LDS. Priesthood Authority - especially that of the Prophet - is what differentiates LDS from "my own version of the LDS religion".

Bingo.

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So an Apostle get a pass?

Still not seeing what relevance this has to your grandfather's lying to obtain a temple recommend.

 

I assume that, if Elder Talmage smoked, his quorum president knew about it. If he did not and if Elder Talmage lied to his leader to gain a temple recommend, then Elder Talmage will answer to God for his lies.

 

The fact is that your grandfather did not "have to" lie. He could have shown integrity and told the truth, letting the chips fall where they may. Or, better yet, he could have given up his coffee.

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Still not seeing what relevance this has to your grandfather's lying to obtain a temple recommend.

 

I assume that, if Elder Talmage smoked, his quorum president knew about it. If he did not and if Elder Talmage lied to his leader to gain a temple recommend, then Elder Talmage will answer to God for his lies.

 

The fact is that your grandfather did not "have to" lie. He could have shown integrity and told the truth, letting the chips fall where they may. Or, better yet, he could have given up his coffee.

 

Indeed...  I know of a case even now were a bishop knows of a members coffee drinking and is working with them.  No lying, no deceit, no being given a pass...  But still very much an active member working in the ward as the bishop directs

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Because I feel the follow the prophet theme is overdone? Mormonism is much more than believing in and having a prophet. To me it represents a belief in the divinity of man and our own personal connection to God. LDS theology exalts mankind. Following the prophet has little to nothing to do with that. I recently read Givens book "The Crucible of Doubt". He talks a lot about how we have a culture of hero worship towards our leaders. He even points out how past prophets have been concerned with the rhetoric of blind adherence.

We most definitely have developed a culture of hero worhship - much to our detriment IMO. 

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Still not seeing what relevance this has to your grandfather's lying to obtain a temple recommend.

 

I assume that, if Elder Talmage smoked, his quorum president knew about it. If he did not and if Elder Talmage lied to his leader to gain a temple recommend, then Elder Talmage will answer to God for his lies.

 

The fact is that your grandfather did not "have to" lie. He could have shown integrity and told the truth, letting the chips fall where they may. Or, better yet, he could have given up his coffee.

Fact of the matter is that they did know about it and allowed it to continue.

 

I'm not saying that exceptions should be made....the rules are the rules, but as we look at the evolution of the WOW we shouldn't turn a blind eye to history.

 

We are several generations removed from the first implementations of the current interpretation of the WOW. There is no excuse now for not being in full compliance, and those that were not aka my grandfather, and others I personally think will be judged fairly.

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So here is the deal, the WOW is policy of the church not doctrine. We see attempts by modern leaders to justify the lack of enforcement the first 80 or so years of the church and this makes some feel better about it. 

 

Because it is policy and not doctrine we have seen the evolution of that policy and what is and what is not allowed. 

 

My grandfather who was born in 1910 and raised on a farm was a closet coffee drinker his whole life. He had to be because once they made it question to be eligible to enter the temple he had to lie about it.He was a good man and God will judge him fairly.

 

Historically the fact that the full enforcement of the WOW by Heber J Grant coincided with prohibition is not small coincidence  

 

Surely no one here thinks that James E Talmage quit smoking cigars after this declaration and he was an apostle....

 

 

Bingo! Policy, not doctrine.  As previously shared, I had a grandmother who drank tea (actually I think it was decaf coffee), either way, I think it would make God incredibly unreasonable to base salvation on something so insignificant.  Plus, as you mentioned, the WoW enforcement coincided quite nicely with prohibition..... I think it's over simplistic to claim that the decision to make it a commandment came directly from God.

 

Many people either don't know or forget that Joseph Smith drank and smoke cigars till the day he died.... apparently he didn't feel it was intended to be a commandment necessary for salvation either.

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Bingo! Policy, not doctrine.  As previously shared, I had a grandmother who drank tea (actually I think it was decaf coffee), either way, I think it would make God incredibly unreasonable to base salvation on something so insignificant.  Plus, as you mentioned, the WoW enforcement coincided quite nicely with prohibition..... I think it's over simplistic to claim that the decision to make it a commandment came directly from God.

 

Many people either don't know or forget that Joseph Smith drank and smoke cigars till the day he died.... apparently he didn't feel it was intended to be a commandment necessary for salvation either.

Nobody here is saying that WOW is necessary for salvation. Faith in Christ is what is necessary for salvation.

Edited by anatess
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You can believe all that without having to be LDS. Priesthood Authority - especially that of the Prophet - is what differentiates LDS from "my own version of the LDS religion".

 

 

 

I guess Mormonism means different things to us.  The prophet part is a small part to me.  The things I previously mentioned you won't find in most Christian denominations.  You don't find man's ability to progress or our divine beginning.  You won't find preexistence or heavenly parents.  Anyways, there's a lot of reasons why I am LDS, none of them have to do with following the prophet.

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I've read the Crucible of Doubt and I would never recommend that book to someone who might be struggling.  I even went to a Book Club on this with other LDS ladies. We were all in agreement that this isn't a book we would recommend because of that.  We felt that it would put more doubts into someone who already had some doubts or misunderstandings.

 

Some of our reasons are the same things you are using here to rationalize your way of thinking.

 

Interesting, I found the book to be very uplifting.  It definitely is a more nuanced approach, but that's what some of us need I suppose.  I think the book encouraged the reader to explore the complexity of our faith and not give up on it when it get's ugly.  It gave the reader more options, because the whitewashed version doesn't work for lots of people once they learn the uneasy aspects of our history.  It helps people realize that you don't have to follow everything the prophet says, and that many prophets have been uncomfortable with the rising "follow the prophet" culture.

Edited by duffman180
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I guess Mormonism means different things to us.  The prophet part is a small part to me.  The things I previously mentioned you won't find in most Christian denominations.  You don't find man's ability to progress or our divine beginning.  You won't find preexistence or heavenly parents.  Anyways, there's a lot of reasons why I am LDS, none of them have to do with following the prophet.

I understand all that. But... once again... you don't have to be LDS to believe all that just like you don't have to be a Buddhist to believe in enlightenment and you don't have to be Christian to live a Christian lifestyle. But, you have to believe in the authority of the prophet to be LDS... it's what puts "power" in your baptism. Otherwise, you're just getting wet.

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Fact of the matter is that they did know about it and allowed it to continue.

Yet again, I ask: So what?

 

You claimed your grandfather was forced to lie. This is false. Your grandfather chose to lie. He could have told the truth and spared his integrity. He could even have stopped drinking coffee.

 

What Elder Talmage did or did not do is utterly irrelevant to your grandfather's deceitfulness.

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I don't think that Duff questions the authority of the Prophet, I maybe wrong and he can correct me if I am. What he is saying is that our religion has more nuance than what we hear in Sunday school, and what we indoctrinate our kids with in primary

That doesn't make sense. The WOW was established by revelation to a Prophet. Choosing not to follow the WOW because one believes "follow the prophet" is overrated is not something you can leave to nuance.

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Yet again, I ask: So what?

 

You claimed your grandfather was forced to lie. This is false. Your grandfather chose to lie. He could have told the truth and spared his integrity. He could even have stopped drinking coffee.

 

What Elder Talmage did or did not do is utterly irrelevant to your grandfather's deceitfulness.

Well we are going to just have to let God sort out my deceitful Grandfathers coffee drinking issues......I'm on grandpas side..I am sure God will have a grandfather policy in place since they passed the prohibition in his life time...anyone born after 1921 you better fall in line.

 

When we get to final judgement if drinking coffee and a couple of white lies are all we have to worry about, I'd say we are in better shape than most.

 

You can never tell form the outside what someones inner struggles/demons/sins are, like many have said when we get to final judgement we will be shocked by who made it and more shocked by who didn't

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