Sign in to follow this  
Lapalabrasinfin

What do you think about WoW?

Recommended Posts

Is it in avoiding excess? Saying plain "No"? When it was revealed wasn't a commandment, was a suggestion, later made a law by other Prophet.

 

I think it is interesting to discuss this, for example, my mom (no LDS) never drinks, but she allows a glass of wine maybe three times a year, she isn't an alcoholic, which is what  most members believe when it comes to alcohol.

Cigarettes and drugs are ABSOLUTE NO'S, but tea and coffee are being debated today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are you presuming that cigarettes and drugs are absolute nos but tea and coffee are debatable? This is not debatable. That's not to say that some won't debate it. But that's, frankly, irrelevant, because debate does not define the Lord's standards. Prophets do. And where do you get the idea that three glasses of wine a year is, "what most members believe when it comes to alcohol"?

 

You said it yourself, the prophets have declared it a law. It is. There are no exceptions to the core "don'ts" of the word of wisdom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought herbal tea was okay.  If it's not, I'm in deep trouble.  And right before I was baptized in the 1990s I remember doing some research over the coffee thing in the WoW, and I remember reading about one bishop who said that if pressed on the point he would not deny a TR to a member who drank Sanka.  I got the feeling that this bishop was holding a minority view... when I mentioned this to the missionaries they were appalled.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PolarVortex, herbal tea is okay.  It is not derived from the tea plant.

 

Well, that's a relief.  I drink this crap from Celestial Seasonings called Roastaroma (roasted chicory and barley with delicate notes of chocolate and a carob finish) that I have to order on-line because no stores around here carry it.  It's totally herbal and it allowed me to stop drinking coffee.  I'd give up one of my fingers or ears before I give up my Roastaroma.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regardless of how one may feel about the merits of the "big four", since 1930 it has been the policy of the Church that use of them is cause to deny one admittance to the temples.

Personally, I can live with this as being similar to the Jewish food rules. Those rules are obsolete in these modern times, but the Jews still observe these rules as commandments as well as part of "Jewishness".

Observing the prohibition of the big four is a part of Mormonness!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

Well, that's a relief.  I drink this crap from Celestial Seasonings called Roastaroma (roasted chicory and barley with delicate notes of chocolate and a carob finish) that I have to order on-line because no stores around here carry it.  It's totally herbal and it allowed me to stop drinking coffee.  I'd give up one of my fingers or ears before I give up my Roastaroma.

 

How do you feel about Pero or Postum?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After I was baptized into the Church, a wonderful LDS woman in my ward turned me on to Postum, and I drank it every day.  It was available at any Safeway, but they always kept it on the very bottom shelf and nobody ever bought it, so every jar I bought often had dirty water marks from where wet mops had slapped it when they washed the floors.

 

They stopped making Postum a few years ago, but it still has its own website*, and you can order it today from some specialty distributor who acquired the license and trademark or whatever from Kraft.  But it costs $10.50 a jar and $6.00 shipping, so I've never ordered it.

 

I get Pero and its competitor Cafix all the time from Whole Foods.  Totally herbal, with a kick and a tang not unlike those of coffee.  I can't work without a warm beverage next to me.  I have one now, in a monster cup that my coworkers nicknamed "The Jacuzzi."

 

*The notion of Postum having its own website is almost as bizarre as the notion of an online dating site for the Amish.  There really is one (http://www.amish-online-dating.com), and if you go there you hear background music of birds chirping, cows mooing, and wagons passing by.  The "Quick Search" box allows "bonnets" to seek "beards" and vice versa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe that what we call religion should be less emphasis on doctrine and much more emphasis on covenant.  I joined the army and finished high school while serving in the military.  I did so as part of a life plan to serve a mission.  I thought I knew what I was doing.  Much of my insights at the time into religion were habits I had acquired from growing up in my family.  Before leaving home to serve in the military my father gave me a father's blessing that emphasized the Word of Wisdom.  I pondered my blessing and prior to leaving home I made a personal covenant concerning the Word of Wisdom.  However, besides the normal items generally covered in the D&C 89 scripture I made a covenant not to drink any caffeinated drinks.  This was a covenant between me and G-d and did not involve anyone else nor did I fell it necessary to convince anyone else to make the extra covenant I had.

 

The blessing of my father gave two promises concerning the Word of Wisdom.  First that if I kept the Word of Wisdom I would be given both physical and spiritual strength as well as a blessing of health to carry out any assignments that I would be given and that my life would be preserved for the covenant.  Second I was promised that I would receive insight and wisdom such that I would be able to learn rapidity and have insights that others would not be given and that I would have a great influence on others.

 

In short I kept my covenant specifically concerning the Word of Wisdom.  Though I was the smallest in my basic training company (115 lbs) I was one of the most fit and won every physical award available.  Though I was bullied and harassed for being a Mormon I as able to influence over 30 of my fellows to join the church.  In addition I was sent to West Point and offered the opportunity to addend - which I turned down to serve a mission.  Finely more than once my life was spared rather miraculously.  

 

So profound were my blessing in the military for making the Word of Wisdom a personal covenant that I have maintained that covenant throughout my life and it has become one of my greatest guiding principles and spiritual foundations throughout my life.  I am a witness to that covenant and all divinely inspired covenants and the value of the discipline of G-d given covenants.  I believe that I have been blessed throughout my life - including the partnership of a beautiful, kind and wonderful wife that is the primary influence of my children and grand children that I am sure I would not have received or been blessed with but for my covenants - that is worth more to me than gold or silver or other blessing what I consider much lesser blessings of life than my family and friends. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

I can't work without a warm beverage next to me.

 

So, there's the WoW... and that's pretty straight forward on the No's.  I mean - if I can't keep a simple promise to avoid drinking alcohol completely... I have no chance in a cold breeze to keep the harder promises - like returning the extra 20 bucks the cashier gave me for change... or giving lessons to screaming Sunbeams every Sunday... or whatever.

 

So, this is just me sharing my experience triggered by your statement above.  I want to make sure you don't take this as - I'm saying your warm beverage is bad or anything.  I'm just sharing my non-doctrinal, just completely personal WoW experience.

 

So... the Spirit of the WoW in my life - I have learned that there are certain substances that make me want to have to have something.  For example - there was a time when I was Catholic that I would give up chocolates every year for lent... that's 40 days without a piece of chocolate, including chocolate milk or hot chocolate.  And man... it was HARD!  I can feel my brain would freeze because it's craving chocolates.  And I can't wait until Easter Sunday so I can gorge on Cadbury Easter eggs and feel good again!  When I was studying the WoW (as LDS investigator), that's when I realized... chocolates have me on bondage!  No different than the bondage of cigarettes or recreational drugs.  So, I started weaning myself off of it.  My brain needs to be free from dependencies... I refuse to say, I can't do X because I haven't had Y... And that's my personal WoW.  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is interesting to discuss this, for example, my mom (no LDS) never drinks, but she allows a glass of wine maybe three times a year,

I'm not sure why you are looking for validation on what your mother does. Are you thinking she's accountable for drinking a little wine, or are you looking for an excuse to drink a little wine. You aren't going to find anyone here willing to validate that drinking a glass of wine once in awhile is acceptable variance to the WOW.

 

The time a member becomes "accountable" for your obedience to WOW is at a temple recommend or other times when asked if you are worthy of a recommend, such as when given a stake calling. Answering "yes" to the WOW question is based on "your" judgement of obedience. There are plenty of debates about "what about overweight people", "what about soda pop drinkers", the debate goes on and on.

 

The other accountability is your accountability to the Spirit. If you drink a glass of wine, did you deny yourself the Spirit and  specific blessings. We all have that accountability - you, me, your mother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For example - there was a time when I was Catholic that I would give up chocolates every year for lent... that's 40 days without a piece of chocolate, including chocolate milk or hot chocolate.  And man... it was HARD!  I can feel my brain would freeze because it's craving chocolates.  And I can't wait until Easter Sunday so I can gorge on Cadbury Easter eggs and feel good again! 

I still do this. Fat Tuesday is next week!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

I still do this. Fat Tuesday is next week!

 

I still do it too!  But not chocolates.  I usually do a "service" thing now.  Like, giving up TV and spend that time doing X service.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The time a member becomes "accountable" for your obedience to WOW is at a temple recommend or other times when asked if you are worthy of a recommend, such as when given a stake calling. Answering "yes" to the WOW question is based on "your" judgement of obedience. There are plenty of debates about "what about overweight people", "what about soda pop drinkers", the debate goes on and on.

 

Technically, the time a member becomes accountable is in their baptismal interview, and with the covenant they make at the time of their baptism to obey the commandments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know that the Church has no stand when it comes to carbonated caffeinated beverages, like colas and such, but no matter what anyone says, drinking any caffeinated beverage is against the Word of Wisdom.  All anyone has to do is a bit of searching and you will see what early church leaders had to say.  Elder John A. Widtsoe wrote a book about it.

 

 

“…From the time that the Word of Wisdom was received, until the present day, the Church as a whole has understood and taught that the term "hot drinks" refers to tea and coffee and all similar beverages.  This definition may be extended to include all drinks whether hot or cold in temperature which, like coffee and tea, contain any stimulating substance, for such are detrimental to health.”  (“Word of Wisdom: A Modern Interpretation,” Elder John A. Widtsoe, Pg. 86)

 

Notice that he specifically states “whether hot or cold in temperature?”  The stimulating substance he refers to is caffeine.  He had more to say on this subject.

 

 

Caffeine found in tea, coffee, and other foods and drinks, is a drug, an alkaloid, related to some of the most violent of poisons. When it enters the human body, it produces at first a feeling of stimulation, followed in due course by a period of depression, relief from which is sought by the use of more caffeine. It is, therefore, habit-forming, so that the power of the will is weakened. It deceives the user into the belief that he is better off, when in fact he is laying the foundation for an increasingly worse condition. The causes that led to the taking of the drug remain just the same, for they cannot be removed by drug taking. Drugs cannot build up the body; they merely mask the truth, temporarily. Only by natural processes such as rest and proper food can fatigue be overcome and new power acquired. Like all other drugs of its class, these alkaloids—caffeine, theobromine, theophylline—fasten their hold upon the victim with a firm, unyielding grasp.  Pg. 91

 

Then he goes on for the slam dunk.

 

 

The drug caffeine is found in many other plants than tea and coffee, such as yerba, mate, Cola nuts, guarana paste and yonpon tea.  Decoctions of these and similar plants are often used where found for their stimulating effects and for commercial purposes the world over. They do not bear the names coffee and tea but have the same effect, because they usually contain the same poisonous drugs.

Caffeine is separated in large quantities from the coffee bean, to make decaffeinated coffee on the one hand, and caffeine-rich soft drinks on the other. Stimulating substances of this class are also made synthetically and given fancy names. Whenever a drink is advertised to "give you a lift," the "lift" is likely to be caused by the drug which it contains. Such soft drinks are decidedly harmful and habit-forming, even though sold by the millions. Such caffeine-containing drinks, offered by every soda fountain and most eating places, and consumed in large quantities, should be known and avoided. There is an added danger from the association of the caffeine with the syrup of the drink, for then one is apt to take much more caffeine than one would do if taking tea or coffee. Often the amount of caffeine in a portion of these drinks is larger than in a cup of strong coffee. The caffeine habit is soon developed, difficult to overcome, and body and mind are injured. Many unnecessary failures in life may be traced to the caffeine-habit as acquired elsewhere than by the use of coffee or tea.  Pgs. 96-97

 

This includes all energy drinks.  Whether or not anyone agrees with this or not comes down to two passages of scripture.

 

 

For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

 

But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.

D&C 58:26;29

 

 Any questions, class?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know that the Church has no stand when it comes to carbonated caffeinated beverages, like colas and such, but no matter what anyone says, drinking any caffeinated beverage is against the Word of Wisdom.  All anyone has to do is a bit of searching and you will see what early church leaders had to say.  Elder John A. Widtsoe wrote a book about it.

 

 Any questions, class?

 

Not a question, just a comment:

You are wrong.

 

Please note the title of Elder Widtsoe's book: Word of Wisdom: A Modern Interpretation. It's an interpretation -- specifically, Elder Widtsoe's interpretation.

 

The power to authoritatively interpret the Word of Wisdom belongs to the First Presidency, and their interpretation is made crystal clear through the temple recommend interview. No specification of cola found there.

 

Now, if you want to argue that cola drinks (and pretty much all other soda pops) are bad for you, I will cheer you on and even join your team. If you want to suggest that their use violates the spirit of the Word of Wisdom, I will probably agree.

 

But what you actually wrote -- "drinking any caffeinated beverage is against the Word of Wisdom" -- is false. You are mistaken, and if you preach that as doctrine, you are guilty of preaching false doctrine. Seriously, don't ride your hobby horse. It's a dangerous practice and could land you quite far from where you want to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know that the Church has no stand when it comes to carbonated caffeinated beverages, like colas and such, but no matter what anyone says, drinking any caffeinated beverage is against the Word of Wisdom.  All anyone has to do is a bit of searching and you will see what early church leaders had to say.  Elder John A. Widtsoe wrote a book about it.

 

What?! Man oh man! I better get in to see my bishop right quick!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone do any research on their own?  I don't mean this to be offensive, but when the church says that it really doesn't have a position on something that always is a signal for me to look into it.  I have looked into the issue of whether or not caffeinated soft drinks and energy drinks are against the WoW and what I found has led me to the conclusion that drinking them is wrong.  Here are a number of quotes that have led me to this conclusion.

 

Quote

 

…It was because of the lives that those men had been urged to live; that they had been taught in their youth to be virtuous, to abstain from alcoholic liquors and from tobacco, tea, coffee and stimulants of every kind.
Elder John L Herrick
CR, Oct 1911, Pg. 90

 

The Word of Wisdom dictates that when we become weary we should stop and rest. When we are threatened with exhaustion, through overexertion, wisdom would caution us to wait, to stop; not to take a stimulant to urge us on to greater extremes, go where we can retire and rest and recuperate according to the laws of nature. That is the best way to do.
President Joseph F. Smith
CR, Oct 1912, Pg. 134

 

Nevertheless, the findings of men of science, in their laboratories and studies, are to the effect that tobacco is not good for the human body. Likewise it has been shown that tea and coffee and all other stimulants are harmful and retard physical development.
Elder John A. Widtsoe
CR, Oct 1925, Pg. 138

 

A whip helps a horse to go a little bit further, but it does not add any strength to the horse, and no narcotic or stimulant that creates an appetite for itself is good for man or woman. And thank the Lord we have his word to that effect.
President Heber J. Grant
CR, Apr 1926, Pg. 7

 

The Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation from our Heavenly Father called the Word of Wisdom in which we are advised not to use stimulants and narcotics.
Elder George Albert Smith
CR, Oct 1937, Pg. 50

 

Hence the emphasis laid upon the Word of Wisdom wherein tobacco, stimulants, and narcotics are eschewed, and temperance and obedience to the laws of health encouraged and admonished.
President David O. McKay
CR, Apr 1941, Pg. 107

 

It regards pollution of the body as an offense, not alone against health but against the sublime objective of bodily Creation. The taking of poison in the form of narcotics and unnecessary stimulants and a wasting of bodily energy in unworthy pursuits all militate against the pure life.
Elder Stephen L. Richards
CR, Apr 1944, Pg. 72

 

Now, time will not permit us to go into the cases of coffee and tea, but suffice it to say that the Lord has recognized these stimulants as habit-forming and contrary to the freedom he wants so much for all of his children.
Presiding Bishop Robert L. Simpson
CR, Apr 1963, Pg. 54

 

The use of alcohol, heroin, tobacco, cocaine, tea, coffee, or other stimulants —and add to these dishonor, dishonesty, insincerity, the pollution of the mind with evil and immoral thoughts, and you get a wider meaning of what is meant by a narcotic—these are the "kicks" that can kick a young man, or anyone for that matter, right out of the realms of decency, honor, and a character of integrity.
Elder Alvin R. Dyer
CR, Apr 1965, Pg. 84

 

One of the most practical teachings of the Church regarding this principle is the Word of Wisdom.  It is true.  It deals principally with the appetite.  You show me a man who has complete control over his appetite, who can resist all temptations to indulge in stimulants, liquor, tobacco, marijuana, and other vicious drugs, and I will show you a youth or man who has likewise developed power to control his passions and desires.
President David O. McKay
CR, Apr 1968, Pg. 8

 

Is it not a sad reflection upon people to have to drink to have a good time, or to take a stimulant to give them energy or self-assurance?  We hope our people will eliminate from their lives all kinds of drugs so far as possible.
President Spencer W. Kimball
CR, Oct 1974, Pg. 6

 

I found in the Word of Wisdom a principle with a promise:

The principle: Care for your body; avoid habit-forming stimulants, tea, coffee, tobacco, liquor, and drugs (see D&C 89:3-9). Such addictive things do little more than relieve a craving which they caused in the first place.
President Boyd K. Packer
CR, Oct 2000, Pg. 93

 

Do you scrupulously avoid the use of stimulants and substances that conflict with the intent of the Word of Wisdom, or have you made some personally rationalized exceptions?
Elder Richard G. Scott
CR, Oct 2008, Pg. 46

 

There are some key phrases I'd like to point out. 

 

"not to take a stimulant to urge us on to greater extremes"

"tea and coffee and all other stimulants are harmful"

"avoid habit-forming stimulants"

"avoid the use of stimulants and substances that conflict with the intent of the Word of Wisdom"

 

Caffeine has been scientifically proven to ease fatigue until your body adapts to it through addiction, however none of that really matters.  It is the last quote that is the most important.  Anything that conflicts with the intent of the WoW is wrong.  This is why I believe drinking caffeinated soft drinks is wrong.  This is where these passages of scripture apply.

 

 

For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

 

But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.

D&C 58:26;29

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone do any research on their own?  I don't mean this to be offensive, but when the church says that it really doesn't have a position on something that always is a signal for me to look into it.  I have looked into the issue of whether or not caffeinated soft drinks and energy drinks are against the WoW and what I found has led me to the conclusion that drinking them is wrong.  Here are a number of quotes that have led me to this conclusion.

 

 

There are some key phrases I'd like to point out. 

 

"not to take a stimulant to urge us on to greater extremes"

"tea and coffee and all other stimulants are harmful"

"avoid habit-forming stimulants"

"avoid the use of stimulants and substances that conflict with the intent of the Word of Wisdom"

 

Caffeine has been scientifically proven to ease fatigue until your body adapts to it through addiction, however none of that really matters.  It is the last quote that is the most important.  Anything that conflicts with the intent of the WoW is wrong.  This is why I believe drinking caffeinated soft drinks is wrong.  This is where these passages of scripture apply.

 

 

Funny how with all those quotes, you want to make the case that it is the church position...  But yet when it comes right down to what the church tells the missionaries to teach or leaders to look in the worthiness interview for caffeine or other stimulants never makes the cut.   Instead it get put into the position of be wise about it.  It seems to me that this action makes the churches position more clear then any of the quotes you gave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Caffeine has been scientifically proven to ease fatigue until your body adapts to it through addiction....

 

Caffeine use does not result in addiction. By definition, a "caffeine addiction" would involve compulsive caffeine use despite significant adverse consequences. The compulsive state associated with an addiction arises through pathological positive reinforcement. Long term high-dose caffeine intake has not been shown to cause drug addiction in experimental models, nor has compulsive consumption of caffeine or caffeinated beverages been observed in humans. Caffeine addiction was added to the ICDM-9; however, its addition is contested since this diagnostic model of caffeine addiction is not supported by evidence.  Evidence from research models suggests that caffeine does not act upon the dopaminergic neural mechanisms that give rise to an addiction.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine

 

M.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

So... the Spirit of the WoW in my life - I have learned that there are certain substances that make me want to have to have something.  For example - there was a time when I was Catholic that I would give up chocolates every year for lent... that's 40 days without a piece of chocolate, including chocolate milk or hot chocolate.  And man... it was HARD!  I can feel my brain would freeze because it's craving chocolates.  And I can't wait until Easter Sunday so I can gorge on Cadbury Easter eggs and feel good again!  When I was studying the WoW (as LDS investigator), that's when I realized... chocolates have me on bondage!  No different than the bondage of cigarettes or recreational drugs.  So, I started weaning myself off of it.  My brain needs to be free from dependencies... I refuse to say, I can't do X because I haven't had Y... And that's my personal WoW.  :)

 

Good luck finding Cadbury eggs this year.  Unless they are already in the country.  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm telling you, Milka chocolate with whole hazelnuts is the most otherworldly confection I've ever eaten.  It makes all other chocolate taste like stale bird seed in comparison.  Hard to find in North American stores, but it's available on Amazon.  Truly I can say that if I die tomorrow, I will die happy having eaten Milka chocolate on occasion.

 

41GerJ87EbL._AA160_.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this