Fifty shades of black and blue and grey?

[Guest]

 I have an announcement... wait for it....

 

 

 

I READ THE BOOK!

 

 

 

All 3 of them.  Well, I read a lot of the book - had to skip lots of pages.  The 3rd one I probably only truly read 1/3 of the book.  It had lots more porn stuff than the 1st 2 books.  I read the book because as RMGuy pointed out - I got interested in all the hoopla about it (are all those women really that stupid?) especially after my 77-year-old aunt begged me to go take her to the movie.  I refused the movie but I had to check out the book to see what my 77-year-old devout Catholic aunt is doing reading these books and getting hooked enough to want to watch the movie.

 

PLEASE DON'T READ THE BOOK.  It is - like everyone is saying - porn.  But, 50 Shades is hardly the first, nor the only, nor one of a few like that that women are reading.  Do you know that they have Sherilyn Kenyon's vampire book on the display end of the public library?  That's just as bad as 50 Shades.  And, if you walk down the Romance section of the public library - it's pretty much all 50 shades type of books - J.R. Ward, Nora Roberts, etc. etc... all lined up like pretty maidens in a row.  Kenyon and Ward's version of erotica is blood letting - vampiric biting/almost death... while in physical intimacy.

 

As far as the movie... I haven't watched it (I can control the image I form from a book, I can't do that with a movie - e.g., I read Damien Omen and The Exorcist when I was about 12 - I can't watch the movie).  My 77-year-old aunt went to watch it with my 54 year old cousin.  They said it was more tastefully done than Magic Mike.

 

Okay, that said... a lot of the complaints they made about the book is unfounded.  The book is erotica.  That's about the only accurate thing that was mentioned in this thread.

 

The woman being a poor victim... or the woman being gullible to have the guy lure her into pain to get the billionaire good-looking guy... and the woman being the sacrificial lamb of the guy's fantasies... not true...

 

What appeals to people like my 77-year-old aunt is the capacity of a woman to go to the pits of hell to save a soul.  Let's take out the erotica part of it for a minute here.  When Disney-types do these kinds of movies, they make Ever After or Snow White and the Huntsman... and it's always the pretty maiden that needs saving.  There has been a trend lately of "women empowerment" that started with Frozen and continued with Maleficent where the woman gets to be the one doing the saving.  50 Shades is that kind of story.

 

It's more like the story of Rogue from the X-men.  She has this curse where she can't be touched - and she can't touch - because of her mutation.  So she grew to be bitter and angry.  In the cartoon - Gambit braved the curse to show her she can be loved.  In the same manner, Christian Grey can't be touched - he was born to a prostitute and her "pimp" made the baby his ashtray... among other things... and when he was 3 years old, his mother bled out on the kitchen floor and died when him trying to wake her up because he was hungry.  They found him and his mom's body 3 days later.  Now, this is the same back-story they used in Dexter (also pornographic TV show - lots of them out there - Game of Thrones, Spartacus, etc.).

 

Anyway, Grey got adopted by the pediatrician that treated him after the event, but that event caused him to develop this fear of being touched.  So that when his hormones started to kick in (parallel with Rogue's experiences) he realized he can never be loved... then he got bullied and realized he can be touched that way because it "seems" familiar to him (he can't remember much of his younger years except for the scars that he still has)... so he ended up beating up people for attention... until when he turned 16 or something, his adoptive mom's best friend (who knows Grey very well and is a pedophile) made him her "slave".  He finally found someone who "loves" him and who he can "love" (her convoluted idea of what that is) who he can touch and be touched by.... and that started his BDSM experience.  The woman gave him focus and an outlet and she ended up helping him become this multi-billionaire tycoon.

 

In comes Anastasia - a very naïve college senior - who met him... and for some reason, he gets attracted to her... and, because the only way he knows how to love is that messed up experience, he tried to ignore the feeling.  Yes, he does know that he is "messed up" and "not normal".  He's even seeing psychologists to help him stay sane... anyway... he realized she is attracted to him too which made it harder to ignore his feelings... so, things escalated until he decided to go and ask her to join his world... she knows there's something really messed up with what he is asking but, at this point, she has learned about his "tutor" (although nothing of his childhood before that) and realized he's a victim of child abuse.  So, she decided to find out how deep this has affected him hoping that she can bring him out of it (yes, yes, the age-old girl wanting to save the boy syndrome that has made so many 80's movies)... and as she has never had sexual experience in her life, she has nothing to gauge "normal" by... but she does know about romance and flowers and such and told Grey - that's what she expects from their relationship - which is alien to him but because he loves her, he tried to do those things so she was hopeful for a while... and then Grey gave her her first "punishment" and she balked... and told Grey he is never going to touch her like that again... and she left him.  End of Book 1.

 

Book 2 - started out with Grey's demons coming back in full force after Ana left him which brought him down to depressive state... he went to reach back out to Ana - Ana took him back but after drawing some hard lines for herself to stop her from getting dragged back into the dark.  Yes, there is still BDSM (the author likes BDSM and thinks it's just fine for 2 consenting adults to engage in) - but Ana now has a better understanding of what she will do and won't do and Grey respects that... and Ana went and found out why Grey can't be touched (about his childhood with his birth mother) and she was able to break through that so that Grey finally allows her to touch him although it is very hard for him... and then she realized that Grey and the pedophile are still in contact... so she left him again... only to find Grey snap and go on his knees and offer himself up as her "slave" which shocked her to the core (seeing Grey as he is with his pedophile)... so she stayed to help him rise above this...

 

Book 3 - their relationship is now in "normal" footing... they get married... and then she got pregnant - which Grey has expressed he does not want.  He doesn't think he can be a good father.  So Grey tried to get her to have an abortion - but she refused - which caused a big divide in their relationship... Anyway, some psycho ex-boss of hers tries to kill Grey by kidnapping his adoptive sister so she sacrifices herself (without his knowledge) to save the sister... anyway, this is a stupid part of the book, Ana is just dumb here... anyway... she almost lost the baby in the process of saving his sister which made Grey realize how much he has grown to love the idea of having children... So they end up having multiple children and Grey was a great "normal" father to them all...

 

The End.  How this compares to Twilight (let's just take the erotica out for another minute) - The writing is terrible, the characters outside of Grey are one-dimensional (including Anastasia - Anastasia is at least a lot less selfish than Bella)... but the premise of both books are intriguing - using vampiric abilities and after-effects of child abuse - as the plot challenge.

 

So... unlike what people have been saying about this book - this is woman empowerment on steroids.  Yes, there's BDSM... but this is portrayed as something just fine if both consent to what's gonna come down... similar to LGBT pervesion, I guess.

 

AGAIN... DO NOT READ THE BOOKS NOR WATCH THE MOVIE... They're filth.

[Palerider]

I always thought you could get an idea about a book by reading the intro pages and turning pages and reading a few lines here and there....etc

[PolarVortex]

Well, anatess, that was quite a tour de force.  But I have to ask: why didn't you stop after the end of the first book?

[Guest]

Well, anatess, that was quite a tour de force.  But I have to ask: why didn't you stop after the end of the first book?

 

First off, because my aunt loaned me all 3.  Second off... it irritates me to have a book that ends in a cliff-hanger.  And 3rd off, I was truly interested in knowing how Grey rose out of the ashes.  But yeah, I barely finished the 3rd book.  I got tired of flipping through pages.  If there was a 4th book I don't know if I'd care to open it.

 

You know what's another book I quit on?  Mortal Instruments.  The heroine was so dumb, selfish, obsessive-for-no-reason-than-oh-he's-so-cute... I was starting to root for the demons and started to wish she'd die in the next battle... that makes me feel terrible so I stopped reading it.  And Katnis Everdeen... grrr... I can't stand that woman.  But, I finished the series for Peeta.

[Suzie]

Anatess, you are brave. I mean to openly post you have read all those books with porn on them. I do NOT mean it sarcastically, I mean it. This is an LDS forum and there is always a chance that you will get a lot of negative replies. But I am curious (just like the rest), did you know that you were reading porn? I ask because for some reason, a lot of people seem to think that porn involves only movies or naked pictures but porn is involved (as you well stated) in a lot of literature but for some reason a lot of people do not think it is "as bad" as a porn movie or that it is "real" porn. Hope I am not putting you on the spot, I am just curious about your reasoning here, thanks. :)

Edited February 16, 2015 by Suzie

[Suzie]

My position is simple: I think the whole idea of making a movie about sadism, and other sexual perversions is dumb and damaging.

 

IF I was NOT a Latter Day Saint or have any religious position, I do not know any reason why I would go and watch a movie like that, I could stay home and watch porn.

[The Folk Prophet]

I always thought you could get an idea about a book by reading the intro pages and turning pages and reading a few lines here and there....etc

 

In today's world and the age of information, this is hardly even necessary. A basic Google/Bing/other search will tell you pretty much anything you need to know about anything. I mean, the first paragraph of the wikipedia article on the book says, "It is notable for its explicitly erotic scenes featuring elements of sexual practices involving bondage/discipline, dominance/submission, and sadism/masochism".  Need one read any further?

[PolarVortex]

First off, because my aunt loaned me all 3.  Second off... it irritates me to have a book that ends in a cliff-hanger.  And 3rd off, I was truly interested in knowing how Grey rose out of the ashes.  But yeah, I barely finished the 3rd book.  I got tired of flipping through pages.  If there was a 4th book I don't know if I'd care to open it.

 

Mm-hmm.  Was there any religion in the book, other than the cheap linkage between Mr. Grey's first name and the Christian Church?  When you're writing shallow fiction, you have to push all the buttons you can reach, I guess.

 

You can bet more sequels are on the way.  One wonders how the author could spice up the plot... probably something with space aliens or time travel.

[prisonchaplain]

My question, based on Anatess' summary--was I not right?  I suggested that women sometimes endure abuse because they think they can save their abuser.  They hope their monsters love them--just a little bit.  Call it a mothering instinct, a nursing instinct--regardless, it is a wicked lie.  Enabling an abuse, and enduring pain is not AGAPE love.  Jesus suffered so we could be well.  He died so we could live.  In these relationships the women (usually) suffer so their men can continue in their cruelty (or negligence, or addiction, or depravity).  Their suffering empowers evil, not righteousness.  They are saving nothing of value.  Of course, Hollywood may twist the story, to make it appear that in the end it is worth it all.  And this is why people of faith and feminists are united in opposing the narrative.  It degrades women (feminists), and it offers a false messiah complex (Judeo-Christian). 

[Windseeker]

Falls well short of "If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."
 ~Articles of Faith 1:13

 

..not that I'm casting stones, I'm just as guilty

 

But now that I understand the plot thanks the Anatess's "sacrifice"..lol 

 

It's a narrative that Hollywood would like to encourage as it maintains a steady supply of young, naive and exploitable flesh for them to prey on.  Like PS said..(and I hope you understand this Anatess) it might masquerade as  "Women empowerment on Steroids"s ", in reality it' only "empowers evil, not righteousness". 

[skalenfehl]

... It degrades women (feminists), and it offers a false messiah complex (Judeo-Christian). 

 

I'm going to make one final post to build on what PC said about a false messiah complex. Having studied the book of Isaiah for several years, I have found a pattern, which has been adopted into fables, fairy tales, etc. There are archetypes in ancient biblical history that have been used to tell and retell stories, even today that involve heroes, villains, etc. Consider the following archetypes:

 

Jehovah-God of Israel

Seraphim-Angelic Emissaries

Sons/Daughters-Servants of God

Zion/Jerusalem-God's Covenant People

Jacob/Israel-Believers in a Creator-God

Babylon-The Wicked of the World

King of Assyria/Babylon-Perdition

 

Now let's plug in their types and shadows:

 

Zion/bride=The princess/fair maiden needing rescuing

Jesus Christ/bridegroom=Hero or Prince

The Harlot Babylon=Evil Stepmother or Witch

The tyrant=Ogre or Giant

Ministering angels=Fairies or secret helpers

etc.

 

We see these in many Disney cartoons such as Snow White, Cinderella, etc. and also movies like Superman, The Matrix, etc. It's kind of fun to plug in these archetypes into familiar stories, though not all types are always utilized

 

Superman

Clark Kent (Kal-El, son of Jor-El)

Jor-El program to help Clark find his way

Lois Lane

Lex Luthor

Zod, Ursa, Non

People of Smallville and The Daily Planet

 

The Matrix

Neo

The Oracle, Morpheus, etc to help Neo find his way

Trinity

Agent Smith 

Agents

People of the Matrix

 

Star Wars

Luke Skywalker

Kenobi to help Luke find his way

Princess Leia (though she ends up being his sister!)  

Darth Vader

Stormtroopers

Denizens of the Empire (Jawas, droids, aliens)

 

There has to be a plot, a struggle, a conflict, which causes the hero pain. He descends to the depths of hell to rescue the girl (Zion). In the end, evil is destroyed and all the good people live happily ever after. It's the classic story of a real scenario. The good people have to simply struggle as they endure to the end.

 

I have noticed that such stories have morphed into corrupt and grossly twisted symbolism like Beauty and the Beast, The Princess and the Frog and The Little Mermaid. With the first two, the symbolism of Savior is completely twisted into some "thing" that needs to be saved by the girl in the hopes the he becomes someone that she can love. With The Little Mermaid, I remember Ariel being completely distracted and seduced by material things from the "world" that she wants more than anything to be a part of. The symbolism to me is clear. I know-they're just cartoons. But they are cartoons that affect the way we as a society thinks. Steven Covey once said that we see the world not as it is, but as we are, or as we are conditioned to see it. And so we have been conditioned over a period of time to accept new philosophies. 

 

Twilight seems harmless enough, but the girl is portrayed as a very plain and without going into too much detail, it's a kind of Beauty and the Beast story (come, on-Bella?). Here's a good article, which sums it up:

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psychologist-the-movies/201111/relationship-violence-in-twilight

 

Twilight, with all its popularity, is arguably with all its issues, becomes a gateway for grosser mentalities of abuse, violence, etc. which brings us back to the topic: Fifty Shades of Grey. The types and shadows of this story are still not as bad as things can get. But society has accepted that women can be objectified, abused, etc and they are left wondering how they can find the right man. There is no right man in this scenario. If we were to take this pattern to its conclusion, we need only look at the Book of Mormon scripture that I quoted in the OP:

 

 

Mormon 9:9 And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—

 

 10 And after they had done this thing, they did murder them in a most cruel manner, torturing their bodies even unto death; and after they have done this, they devour their flesh like unto wild beasts, because of the hardness of their hearts; and they do it for a token of bravery.

 

Returning to the Bible and the proper archetypes, a man should love a woman and cherish her and lift her up just as Christ gave Himself up to lift Zion up. Ephesians 5 is a good chapter to read, but I'll just quote a verse or two:

 

 

 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

 

We live in a world today ripe for the sword of justice to fall on us. But even as wicked and corrupt as it has become, we can still remain unspotted from the world. Going back to the Book of Mormon, regarding the scripture I cited above with the wicked Nephites defiling women and killing them, we learn that although Mormon and his son Moroni lived in a society that glorified such sex and violence, they were able to remain unspotted from the sins of their generation. Amidst decades of war, they knew Christ and could still teach us about charity, the pure love of Christ (Moroni 7). So while society around us accepts and supports and glamorizes sex and violence by degrees until it is fully ripe, we can, like Mormon and Moroni, remain unspotted from the world, receive gifts from the Lord, ministering of angels, calling and election, and the "Other Comforter." (Moroni 7)

 

 

[Guest]

And then we have people that drop a giant stink bomb in a room, then leave. 

[skalenfehl]

And then we have people that drop a giant stink bomb in a room, then leave. 

 

Do you mean me? 

[Guest]

Nope. :) 

[Suzie]

Nope. :)

 

Me? lol

 

Geez, without wanting to sound sacrilegious, it reminds me to Judas. 

[slamjet]

Oh, sorry, I'll put my shoes back on.

[Palerider]

And then we have people that drop a giant stink bomb in a room, then leave.

Everyone please be sure to shower and use soap. Thank you .....that is all.

This was always one of my Camp rules at Summer Camp. Told the boys they had to shower and use soap because I didn't want to smell them.

[Guest]

Yes, please put your shoes back on! 

[Guest]

Anatess, you are brave. I mean to openly post you have read all those books with porn on them. I do NOT mean it sarcastically, I mean it. This is an LDS forum and there is always a chance that you will get a lot of negative replies. But I am curious (just like the rest), did you know that you were reading porn? I ask because for some reason, a lot of people seem to think that porn involves only movies or naked pictures but porn is involved (as you well stated) in a lot of literature but for some reason a lot of people do not think it is "as bad" as a porn movie or that it is "real" porn. Hope I am not putting you on the spot, I am just curious about your reasoning here, thanks. :)

Yes, I knew it was porn. I heard about the book when the first one came out and became a controversial smash hit. But yes, it is different reading a book and watching a movie. When reading a book, you can have a bit of control over the image it forms in your brain... especially if the writer is bad. Whereas, in a movie, the image is fed to you. No, I'm not in any way saying reading porn is ok.

I'm not sure if English not being my primary language makes a difference. When watching a movie, I rely on the image to communicate the story to me because I have a difficult time catching the dialogue. When reading a book, if the writer is really good (Tolkien, etc.), I can taste the dust in my mouth from the words on the pages. But most of the time, I'm not building an image in my head because the writer doesn't give me enough to build the image. Rather, I read feelings and thoughts and I build the image however I want to fill in the blanks. Example... Harry Potter's entrance to Diagon Alley was completely different in my head than it appeared in the movie, it was a lot more awesome in the movie... etc.

When watching a movie, the director controls what I see. When reading a book, I control what I see. So that, if I'm reading the book The Exorcist to scare myself, I can really get myself scared. But I read the book to get into the mind of the priest, so I dialed down how scary it got. If I'm looking to get off on the porn, 50 Shades will deliver. But I didn't read it for that. I read it to understand what made the characters tick. I did not want to know what other people thought made the characters tick, I wanted to find out for myself. And yes, skipping pages became necessary.

[Guest]

My question, based on Anatess' summary--was I not right? I suggested that women sometimes endure abuse because they think they can save their abuser. They hope their monsters love them--just a little bit. Call it a mothering instinct, a nursing instinct--regardless, it is a wicked lie. Enabling an abuse, and enduring pain is not AGAPE love. Jesus suffered so we could be well. He died so we could live. In these relationships the women (usually) suffer so their men can continue in their cruelty (or negligence, or addiction, or depravity). Their suffering empowers evil, not righteousness. They are saving nothing of value. Of course, Hollywood may twist the story, to make it appear that in the end it is worth it all. And this is why people of faith and feminists are united in opposing the narrative. It degrades women (feminists), and it offers a false messiah complex (Judeo-Christian).

No, you're not right. Anastasia did not enable the abuse. She stopped the cycle of abuse. There was no question about her mission. But, to understand how deep the psychosis went, she had to experience it. When she saw how dark it really was, she took herself out of it knowing there was nothing she could do to help Grey. Grey took himself out of the abyss himself by hanging on to Anastasia but it was a 3-book process.

[Guest]

As if I needed to be persuaded to stay away, here are a couple of good viewpoints, first from a psychologist, and then from a mother (neither LDS, fwiw):

 

http://www.megmeekermd.com/2015/02/a-psychiatrists-letter-to-young-people-about-fifty-shades-of-grey/

 

http://www.bonbonbreak.com/letter-children-fifty-shades-grey/

[Guest]

Mm-hmm. Was there any religion in the book, other than the cheap linkage between Mr. Grey's first name and the Christian Church? When you're writing shallow fiction, you have to push all the buttons you can reach, I guess.

You can bet more sequels are on the way. One wonders how the author could spice up the plot... probably something with space aliens or time travel.

There's nothing about church or religion in the books except the guy's name is Christian.

Edited February 17, 2015 by anatess

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Eowyn, I was thinking of that first article too.  I particularly appreciate this part:

 

This is what you need to know about Fifty Shades of Grey: as a child, Christian Grey was terribly neglected. He is confused about love because he never experienced the real thing. In his mind, love is tangled up with bad feelings like pain and embarrassment.  Christian enjoys hurting women in bizarre ways. Anastasia is an immature girl who falls for Christian’s looks and wealth, and foolishly goes along with his desires.

In the real world, this story would end badly, with Christian in jail, and Ana in a shelter – or morgue. Or Christian would continue beating Ana, and she’d stay and suffer. Either way, their lives would most definitely not be a fairy tale. Trust me on this one.

 

As a doctor, I’m urging you: DON’T see Fifty Shades of Grey. Get informed, learn the facts, and explain to your friends why they shouldn’t see it either.

 

 

5.   Christian’s emotional problems are cured by Anastasia’s love.

Only in a movie. In the real world, Christian wouldn’t change to any significant degree. If Anastasia was fulfilled by helping emotionally disturbed people, she should have become a psychiatrist or social worker.

http://www.megmeekermd.com/2015/02/a-psychiatrists-letter-to-young-people-about-fifty-shades-of-grey/

Edited February 17, 2015 by LiterateParakeet

[prisonchaplain]

No, you're not right. Anastasia did not enable the abuse. She stopped the cycle of abuse. There was no question about her mission. But, to understand how deep the psychosis went, she had to experience it. When she saw how dark it really was, she took herself out of it knowing there was nothing she could do to help Grey. Grey took himself out of the abyss himself by hanging on to Anastasia but it was a 3-book process.

 

How many women, currently suffering abuse, may end up thinking they are on a mission, and if they just endure, book 3 is coming?  Anastasia is a fairy tale.  Usually these stories don't end happily ever after. 

[Guest]

How many women, currently suffering abuse, may end up thinking they are on a mission, and if they just endure, book 3 is coming?  Anastasia is a fairy tale.  Usually these stories don't end happily ever after. 

 

But see... this is what everybody keeps on missing.  Anastasia went into it knowing it is dark.

 

My husband married me knowing how dark I can get.  Do I abuse my husband?  Heck yes!  Do I want to, heck no!

 

Same with Christian Grey... He never - not once - inflicted pain on anybody because he enjoyed seeing people in pain.  He sees pleasure in the pain - for example (and this is really the basis of BDSM) - if you slap your arm, it doesn't really hurt if you think about it, what you feel is that tingling sensation that your palm left behind - that tingling sensation is your neurons telling you to watch out - be aware, be awake, something is happening... so that when something does happen (the pleasure sensation) - it is intensified because you are 100% attuned to it.  If it leaves bruises - then Grey sees that as the "bad kind" and when Ana got sexually harassed and bruised up by her boss, Grey beat the guy to a pulp.

 

So, before Ana - Grey doesn't get into relationships unless they sign contracts - fully consensual.  Everything is laid out in detail on the contract that both agree on - you can do this but not this, this is a soft limit, this is a hard limit... you can use this tool, you can't use this tool... you can wear this but not this.  You have to work out and see a doctor x times a month, you have to eat this and this so you will be healthy, etc. etc.  This gives Grey his specific boundaries that he can work with and know it's still ok. 

 

So Ana sees this about Grey - that he is a control freak because his sanity depends on certain boundaries - so she tries to break him out of it so he can start to trust people and break through those boundaries.  Ana did not sign nor even discuss the contract.  She refused to do it.  Which left Grey flailing, not knowing what to do... so everything became a trial and error - he does something, Ana says stop, he immediately stops... he does something, Ana doesn't say stop (she's never had a boyfriend in her life so she doesn't know anything either), he continues, Ana goes home crying which causes Grey's self-loathing to come back full force because he loses complete control... so, if you take this out of the erotica genre, it's really just a "getting to know you" exercise that is the foundation of all romance stories.