Suzie Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 My husband married me knowing how dark I can get. Do I abuse my husband? Heck yes! Do I want to, heck no! Please do not take personal the following comment, hope I do not sound harsh because it is not my intention and yet I want to make a point. Whether you want to abuse him or not (and even if you might have a medical condition) it does not stop the fact that you are abusing him and certainly does not stop your behavior from affecting him. He certainly does not have to put up with it but he made the choice. Was a good choice? He can only answer that. Professionally speaking, I would never advise anyone to stay in an abusive relationship EVEN if they think they can "help/save" the soul of the person with the issue. I think it is a very dangerous thing to do, specially if the person in question has children. I did not read the books but if Anastasia decided to stay with the guy to try to "help" him while submitting herself to abuse from him then she was indeed enabling the abuse, the purpose behind why she did it is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windseeker Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Perhaps the Church is too shallow to get the deeper meaning in most Pornography, when you take it out of that Genre and say... put into say Family Movies, it's really just a person meets person or other persons and fall in love tale. Vort 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Eowyn, I was thinking of that first article too. I particularly appreciate this part: This is what you need to know about Fifty Shades of Grey: as a child, Christian Grey was terribly neglected. He is confused about love because he never experienced the real thing. In his mind, love is tangled up with bad feelings like pain and embarrassment. Christian enjoys hurting women in bizarre ways. Anastasia is an immature girl who falls for Christian’s looks and wealth, and foolishly goes along with his desires.In the real world, this story would end badly, with Christian in jail, and Ana in a shelter – or morgue. Or Christian would continue beating Ana, and she’d stay and suffer. Either way, their lives would most definitely not be a fairy tale. Trust me on this one. As a doctor, I’m urging you: DON’T see Fifty Shades of Grey. Get informed, learn the facts, and explain to your friends why they shouldn’t see it either. 5. Christian’s emotional problems are cured by Anastasia’s love.Only in a movie. In the real world, Christian wouldn’t change to any significant degree. If Anastasia was fulfilled by helping emotionally disturbed people, she should have become a psychiatrist or social worker.http://www.megmeeker...shades-of-grey/ See, the problem with these analysis is it seems like they never read the book. Or they read a book that was not what I read... 1.) He is confused about love because he never experienced the real thing. That is false. Grey was loved by his prostitute mother. He still gets foggy memories of how she smells. This love stayed with him subliminally so much so that every single girl he's ever been in a relationship with (not counting the pedophile) including Ana looks like his mom. He got adopted after his mother died by this pediatrician and judge. Both loved him like any real parents could love their real children. They ended up adopting two other kids, a boy and a girl, and both loved Grey like real brothers and sisters. The sister was the reason Grey finally started talking (he did not talk for years since he was adopted) and he was fiercely protective of her. 2.) In his mind, love is tangled up with bad feelings like pain and embarrassment. This is close but not how I understood the book. Because of the physical abuse he experienced as a child, he developed haphephobia among other things. This made him think he cannot be loved and he cannot possibly be good enough to love somebody. So that, even when he experiences love by his adoptive family, he only sees it directed at each other but not to him. 3.) Christian enjoys hurting women in bizarre ways. I explained this to my response to PC above. He does not hurt women for the purpose of hurting. The basis of BDSM is to intensify pleasure. Christian's first experience with this is when he was the "slave" role - the recipient. At first, it was just freedom for him to love and be loved through this method - which is the only way he can tolerate being touched. But, it graduated from that. In BDSM - the slave actually runs the show because the slave is the recipient... the dominant's happiness relies completely on the slave's happiness. So... here's the psychology in play after Grey meets a girl he cares about (pre-Ana) - he sees the girl who looks like his mother (triggers his caring and protective instincts)... and the woman is usually a "weakling" (his mother was the same) so he wants to take care of her and empower her... but, because Grey is "50 shades of messed up" (what Grey calls himself - hence the title), he has to be in total control of everything... so he writes everything in black and white on a contract... so both of them knows exactly where the boundaries are so that with his haphephobia, he won't end up hurting the girl and the girl doesn't end up physically hurting him. Everything that Grey does up to this point is for the woman (an echo of his love for his mother). He gets his happiness from the happiness of the woman. But, even after the break up... he still continues to care for these people. One of them got married and got divorced and went psychotic. She went and played mind-games with Ana hoping to get her out of the picture so she can get Grey back... but even then, Grey still cared for her, got her into a mental facility, got her into an art school (her outlet) and bought all her paintings, and checked up on her... etc. etc. 4.) Anastasia is an immature girl who falls for Christian’s looks and wealth, and foolishly goes along with his desires. Okay, wait... this is nothing new. This is classic Disney Princess and 80's movies stories. Hello... St. Elmo's Fire... Rob Lowe character. LOL. 5. Christian’s emotional problems are cured by Anastasia’s love. Christian's emotional problems was not cured. Not even after the end of Book 3. He simply found a way to deal with his emotional problems. And what's wrong with this? I live this life everyday. My husband makes me normal. Edited February 17, 2015 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Perhaps the Church is too shallow to get the deeper meaning in most Pornography, when you take it out of that Genre and say... put into say Family Movies, it's really just a person meets person or other persons and fall in love tale. There's no deeper meaning in most pornography. I mean - Debbie Does Dallas - is nothing at all to do with Debbie's deep experiences in Dallas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finrock Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Please do not take personal the following comment, hope I do not sound harsh because it is not my intention and yet I want to make a point. Whether you want to abuse him or not (and even if you might have a medical condition) it does not stop the fact that you are abusing him and certainly does not stop your behavior from affecting him. He certainly does not have to put up with it but he made the choice. Was a good choice? He can only answer that. Professionally speaking, I would never advise anyone to stay in an abusive relationship EVEN if they think they can "help/save" the soul of the person with the issue. I think it is a very dangerous thing to do, specially if the person in question has children. I did not read the books but if Anastasia decided to stay with the guy to try to "help" him while submitting herself to abuse from him then she was indeed enabling the abuse, the purpose behind why she did it is irrelevant. Hi Suzie! :) The reality is that God requires us to be perfect. The standard is perfection and any deviation from it is abusive. That means that all of us are constantly being abused and are abusing others or ourselves. Mortality is an abusive environment. The moment we are born we are assaulted by death, disease, and the elements. This is abusive to our natural environment, which is being safely and securely with God. Abuse: "Abuse is the treatment of others or self in a way that causes injury or offense. It harms the mind and the spirit and often injures the body as well. It can cause confusion, doubt, mistrust, and fear. It is a violation of the laws of society and is in total opposition to the teachings of the Savior. The Lord condemns abusive behavior in any form—physical, sexual, verbal, or emotional" (https://www.lds.org/topics/abuse?lang=eng). If you have committed any sin, you are an abuser, maybe not the worst, but an abuser to some degree. But, God, doesn't look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. So, we live in an abusive environment (mortality) and we all sin (abusive behavior). -Finrock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightSG Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 There's no deeper meaning in most pornography. I mean - Debbie Does Dallas - is nothing at all to do with Debbie's deep experiences in Dallas. Are you sure? I was so hoping for an engaging plot that explores the many facets of such an interesting city and gives ideas for new things to see and do next time I visit. Guess I'll have to pick a different date movie now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Please do not take personal the following comment, hope I do not sound harsh because it is not my intention and yet I want to make a point. Whether you want to abuse him or not (and even if you might have a medical condition) it does not stop the fact that you are abusing him and certainly does not stop your behavior from affecting him. He certainly does not have to put up with it but he made the choice. Was a good choice? He can only answer that. Professionally speaking, I would never advise anyone to stay in an abusive relationship EVEN if they think they can "help/save" the soul of the person with the issue. I think it is a very dangerous thing to do, specially if the person in question has children. I did not read the books but if Anastasia decided to stay with the guy to try to "help" him while submitting herself to abuse from him then she was indeed enabling the abuse, the purpose behind why she did it is irrelevant. I am under no illusion that my abuse of my husband is in any way okay that he has to put up with. But, I thank the good Lord everyday that my husband chose to marry me and help me temper the psychosis. It's not just me fighting it... it's my husband and me (and now my kids) fighting it. One is a soldier... 4 is an army. And, it gave me a shot at an Eternal Family. And that's probably why Christian Grey intrigued me (why I read the 2nd and 3rd books). We have some things in common. And, it is very clear in the book that Grey honors Ana for her willingness to stick by him. "Anastasia decided to stay with the guy to try to "help" him while submitting herself to abuse from him then she was indeed enabling the abuse, the purpose behind why she did it is irrelevant." This is not true. At least not as it is portrayed in the book. My aunt (who watched the movie) said the movie ended with the word "No" and the elevator door closing (Ana leaves Grey) which was, in her own words, "a strong message" to the audience. But, I think what everybody is saying about the "submitting to abuse" is because of the common understanding that BDSM is abuse. Nobody here (surely not me) knows how BDSM can be engaged in by consensual adults without it being abuse. But, the parts of BDSM that Ana engaged in was completely consensual - things she enjoyed doing... yes, I don't understand how it is enjoyable - but... I don't know how gay intimacy can be enjoyable either. So, I just take the author for her word on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) By the way... Just to be very clear... I AM IN NO WAY SUGGESTING IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THAT ANYBODY SHOULD READ OR WATCH THIS BOOK/MOVIE. It is pornographic. All I'm saying is... besides it being pornographic... nothing in the story is what everybody says is the reason not to watch it. So that, if the story remains exactly the same and instead, you replace BDSM with IED (my condition) - it can be a great book/movie to watch... well, unless the author/director makes it a glorified graphic violence book/movie... Edited February 17, 2015 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windseeker Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Anatess, Is it s good book? Would you recommend it? Simply put you're just rationalizing sin. The entire story is made up to make the reader feel that denigrating and abusing our bodies is acceptable. The story accomplished it's goal in bringing you to a point where you empathize with the characters and excuse their sordid behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windseeker Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 By the way... Just to be very clear... I AM IN NO WAY SUGGESTING IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THAT ANYBODY SHOULD READ OR WATCH THIS BOOK/MOVIE. It is pornographic. well...that's a relief Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 My understanding is that the book under discussion is an amateurish pornographic fan-fic of the Twilight books. If this is true, I seriously doubt the author possesses either the writing skills or the emotional depth to convey much of what anatess suggests. Windseeker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I read an article about the book (basically citing all of the stupid plot holes and lack of character traits), and it pasted a paragraph from the book. Honestly, besides the fact that it's blatant porn that romanticizes abuse, I don't know how anatess got through that much. If that one paragraph was a fair representation, it is SO badly written. Really. Laughably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) My understanding is that the book under discussion is an amateurish pornographic fan-fic of the Twilight books. If this is true, I seriously doubt the author possesses either the writing skills or the emotional depth to convey much of what anatess suggests. Okay, it has nothing at all similar to Twilight besides they're both not good writers. And yes, the characters except Grey and Edward/Jacob are cardboard boxes. There are many authors who do not possess the writing skills but can convey a good story... Nicholas Sparks and Danielle Steele are one of them. And, if anybody ever read Lady Di's cousin (can't remember her name right now) who used to write romance novels about royalty... I read every single one of those books when I was a teen-ager. Edited February 17, 2015 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I read an article about the book (basically citing all of the stupid plot holes and lack of character traits), and it pasted a paragraph from the book. Honestly, besides the fact that it's blatant porn that romanticizes abuse, I don't know how anatess got through that much. If that one paragraph was a fair representation, it is SO badly written. Really. Laughably. I read through all 4 books of Twilight too... and all of Patterson's Maximum Ride book. I mean... Twilight is basically - I am so depressed I want to die... next chapter, I want to die I am so depressed... next chapter... I am so ugly, I am depressed, I want to die... Patterson is - Chapter x - She went to school and enjoyed 6th grade. One sentence chapter. Most books are actually like this. Even R.A. Salvatorre - one of my favorites can be such a drag. A really good writer - Orson Pratt Card. Another really good writer - Tolkien... but man, it's so difficult to read his books because the plots slow down as he describes every single dust mote in the scenery. Edited February 17, 2015 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 A really good writer - Orson Pratt Card. Another really good writer - Tolkien... but man, it's so difficult to read his books because the plots slow down as he describes every single dust mote in the scenery. Did you mean Orson Scott Card? I love his writing too. Well, not so much Ender's Game actually (it's a personal thing I don't like children and violence and I'm not a huge sic-fi fan)--but I love a lot of his stuff. About Tolkein....LOL! Yes that is how I feel too. Thank goodness for the movies, I don't think I could have gotten through the books because I don't care for much for long descriptions of scenery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 There are so many good writers who can tell a story AND use beautiful words. When I run out of those, I won't feel the need to turn to badly written garbage. I'll find another hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 There are so many good writers who can tell a story AND use beautiful words. When I run out of those, I won't feel the need to turn to badly written garbage. I'll find another hobby. People have different tolerances for writer skill. I'll read a good story even when written poorly and yes, I complain about the writing a lot, hah hah. My favorite Star Wars books is Obi-Wan's juvenile series... there's 18 of those books written for 12 year olds. I read the series when I was in my mid 30's. Why I like it is because it gives such a great insight into Obi-Wan and Quigon's characters even around swiss cheese plots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 By the way... So that, if the story remains exactly the same and instead, you replace BDSM with IED (my condition) - it can be a great book/movie to watch... well, unless the author/director makes it a glorified graphic violence book/movie... So, I looked up IED, and understand better why the story so intrigued you. Further--why you express some empathy for the Grey character. You know what it is to have episodes of behavior that appear "just wrong," and to have a cadre of people who love and support you through them. If you pull yourself out of your own context, and consider the more general public, do you not see our concerns? Women who are in dangerously (or even just ungodly) abusive situations will consider themselves the Ana, and their monsters the Christian. Further, I fear for the men who may become intrigued and want to pressure their wives into these types of games (that's the porn side). You've said repeatedly that you do not recommend anyone reading/viewing the series. Further, you've given a truly interesting insight. Thank you for that. Perhaps some here on stuck on the fact that you read it and got something out of it. However, does not any darkness contain something attractive? After all, if it were all ugliness, it wouldn't be tempting, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 BARBARA CARTLAND!!! That's the one! I read every single Cartland book I could get my hands on in college. LOL! If you read one, you've read all... they're usually wimpering females needing protection from nobility... and they start out hating each other... ha hah. But man... I just loved reading about that historical world of nobles and commoners in old Europe... their grand dresses and dances and how the rich entertained themselves before the age of electricity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) If you pull yourself out of your own context, and consider the more general public, do you not see our concerns? Women who are in dangerously (or even just ungodly) abusive situations will consider themselves the Ana, and their monsters the Christian. Further, I fear for the men who may become intrigued and want to pressure their wives into these types of games (that's the porn side). Yes, I see the concerns... but they're all assigning responsibility to the book instead of the reader. I don't look at things in that manner. I don't blame video games for Sandy Hook, for example. It's a book for entertainment. Not a scholastic textbook. But that's just me. You've said repeatedly that you do not recommend anyone reading/viewing the series. Further, you've given a truly interesting insight. Thank you for that. Perhaps some here on stuck on the fact that you read it and got something out of it. However, does not any darkness contain something attractive? After all, if it were all ugliness, it wouldn't be tempting, right? Of course. But, that's not just 50 Shades. That's most fictional stories. There's always the hero and the villain. Hamlet, Cuckoo's Nest, Karenina... even Romeo and Juliet... Edited February 17, 2015 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightSG Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Another really good writer - Tolkien... but man, it's so difficult to read his books because the plots slow down as he describes every single dust mote in the scenery. It's not so much that as the "and there's this really incredibly interesting side note...but it's not really part of this story so I'm not going to tell you about it." As for Twilight, they missed a crossover opportunity that might have saved the series in my opinion: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Taylor Swift did a really funny parody on SNL where Edward was Frankenstein instead of a vampire. Good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I had not read Tolkien since high school until a few years ago -- well, actually maybe ten years ago -- when I read the six-book "trilogy" to my children. As a forty-something-year-old, I found his detailed descriptions highly entertaining, even magical, whereas I simply skipped over them, completely unread, as a teen. I suspect many people who remember Tolkien as verbose and meandering might find his prose lovely if they reread it as adults. Windseeker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finrock Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I am under no illusion that my abuse of my husband is in any way okay that he has to put up with. But, I thank the good Lord everyday that my husband chose to marry me and help me temper the psychosis. It's not just me fighting it... it's my husband and me (and now my kids) fighting it. One is a soldier... 4 is an army. And, it gave me a shot at an Eternal Family. And that's probably why Christian Grey intrigued me (why I read the 2nd and 3rd books). We have some things in common. And, it is very clear in the book that Grey honors Ana for her willingness to stick by him. "Anastasia decided to stay with the guy to try to "help" him while submitting herself to abuse from him then she was indeed enabling the abuse, the purpose behind why she did it is irrelevant." This is not true. At least not as it is portrayed in the book. My aunt (who watched the movie) said the movie ended with the word "No" and the elevator door closing (Ana leaves Grey) which was, in her own words, "a strong message" to the audience. But, I think what everybody is saying about the "submitting to abuse" is because of the common understanding that BDSM is abuse. Nobody here (surely not me) knows how BDSM can be engaged in by consensual adults without it being abuse. But, the parts of BDSM that Ana engaged in was completely consensual - things she enjoyed doing... yes, I don't understand how it is enjoyable - but... I don't know how gay intimacy can be enjoyable either. So, I just take the author for her word on that one. The problem with the "message" in the book is that no man or woman can save or help another unless they lead them to Jesus Christ. That is the only way we can help others is by leading them to Christ. BDSM is abusive no matter whether it is consensual adults or not. Its abusive because it deviates from that which is good or God. Jesus Christ does not abandon those who abuse Him. And guess what, we have all abused Jesus Christ! We are all equally damned and so we can't help one another in any other way except it be by leading through persuasion, long suffering, etc. others to Jesus Christ. He is the only one qualified and more importantly capable of healing all persons from all things. -Finrock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 The problem with the "message" in the book is that no man or woman can save or help another unless they lead them to Jesus Christ. That is the only way we can help others is by leading them to Christ. BDSM is abusive no matter whether it is consensual adults or not. Its abusive because it deviates from that which is good or God. Jesus Christ does not abandon those who abuse Him. And guess what, we have all abused Jesus Christ! We are all equally damned and so we can't help one another in any other way except it be by leading through persuasion, long suffering, etc. others to Jesus Christ. He is the only one qualified and more importantly capable of healing all persons from all things. -Finrock Uhm, duh. Now, count how many popular fiction books are out there where the hero saves the day by bringing people to Jesus Christ. I read a lot of Christian fiction... a lot of them are preachy which turns regular readers off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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