Fifty shades of black and blue and grey?

[Vort]

Not necessarily; one can note a prevalent theme in several works without losing any of the value of those works. 

True as a rule, but we're talking about a pubescent male here.

[Blackmarch]

True as a rule, but we're talking about a pubescent male here.

 the guy does have a point tho.

And IMO most nudity in art that isn't part of practicing and study of body and motion is for tickling of  the hormones to some degree or another.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Blackmarch

[Guest]

True as a rule, but we're talking about a pubescent male here.

We're talking about my son here, not some random teen-ager.

Edited March 16, 2015 by anatess

[Vort]

We're talking about my son here, not some random teen-ager.

With all due respect, anatess, I do not know your son. To me, his is indeed a "random teen-ager". But the point is, he is a pubescent male, so unless he's an outlier, that has some specific and well-defined thought and behavior patterns associated with it.

 

It has been eye-opening to me as an adult to see how little women, even mothers, sometimes understand about men. I don't know if that category includes you, anatess. But if you think your pubescent son is not hormonally influenced by seeing lots of beautiful nude women (or representations thereof) all over the place, you just may be.

[Guest]

With all due respect, anatess, I do not know your son. To me, his is indeed a "random teen-ager". But the point is, he is a pubescent male, so unless he's an outlier, that has some specific and well-defined thought and behavior patterns associated with it.

 

It has been eye-opening to me as an adult to see how little women, even mothers, sometimes understand about men. I don't know if that category includes you, anatess. But if you think your pubescent son is not hormonally influenced by seeing lots of beautiful nude women (or representations thereof) all over the place, you just may be.

What I mean is... he's my son, so we don't have to assume anything. You can just ask me and I'll clarify.

I know when my son is hormonally influenced and when he is not. We are open about that sort of stuff in my house. Him saying everywhere he looks is boobs is him being funny. Visiting art galleries are ordinary stuff for us to do. Nude sculptures/paintings are common in art galleries. If looking at a nude sculpture gets you off like porn, you shouldn't be visiting art galleries.

I grew up with 2 older brothers, have 2 sons, no daughters, married to a man... I better know something about men or I'm sunk.

Edited March 16, 2015 by anatess

[The Folk Prophet]

I better know something about men or I'm sunk.

 

You do not. Trust me.

 

Anyhow, if women can constantly hold the, "You're a man so you don't understand" argument over our heads, we're holding this one, at least, over theirs. When it comes to "hormonaly influenced", trust me. You do not understand. :)

[Guest]

You do not. Trust me.

 

Anyhow, if women can constantly hold the, "You're a man so you don't understand" argument over our heads, we're holding this one, at least, over theirs. When it comes to "hormonaly influenced", trust me. You do not understand. :)

I've never held that argument. I can assure you, my husband understands me better than anybody - including my own mother.

But I confess, I understand men better than I understand women.

And trust me... I know when my son is being funny. And it's pretty sad for people to think that men are so debased that they can't pass by a sculpture of the human form and not get hormonal over it.

But I digress... the point was not my son's comment. The point was the woman's comment about art galleries in juxtaposition of the women excited over another BDSM book series.

Edited March 16, 2015 by anatess

[Vort]

And it's pretty sad for people to think that men are so debased that they can't pass by a sculpture of the human form and not get hormonal over it.

Proof positive that you don't quite get it, anatess. Few men would call that being "debased". Most would simply call it being male.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm gonna side with Anatess on this one.  Generally speaking, museum nudity is not that exciting for pubescent males.  I remember that we pointed and snickered, but that was it.  Statues and paintings in classic museums tend to communicate beauty, not lust.  In her case, my point is probably even more so, as her family goes to these exhibits often, whereas the times I went, it was a school field trip, and we were mostly ignorant proletarians. 

[The Folk Prophet]

 Generally speaking, museum nudity is not that exciting for pubescent males. 

 

This is, obviously, not a universal reality.

 

Proof positive that you don't quite get it, anatess. Few men would call that being "debased". Most would simply call it being male.

 

I agree. If this is debased then I am the foulest creature who ever walked the earth -- something that I feel confident most women would believe about most men if they honestly understood them. 

[Magus]

i agree 50 shades is "mommy porn" - but I can't have an opinion on it degrading women unless I read it. Which would be a brave task. But I might be up to it. I've managed to slog my way through some terrible books in my time.

[Blackmarch]

i agree 50 shades is "mommy porn" - but I can't have an opinion on it degrading women unless I read it. Which would be a brave task. But I might be up to it. I've managed to slog my way through some terrible books in my time.

if you know it has it, then its not worth it.

 

[Guest]

Proof positive that you don't quite get it, anatess. Few men would call that being "debased". Most would simply call it being male.

Getting hormonal over nude sculptures in a classy art gallery is debased. Period.

Maybe you don't get art.

[estradling75]

i agree 50 shades is "mommy porn" - but I can't have an opinion on it degrading women unless I read it. Which would be a brave task. But I might be up to it. I've managed to slog my way through some terrible books in my time.

 

 

Can you consider something to be porn and not consider it to be degrading?  To both women and men?

[Blackmarch]

Getting hormonal over nude sculptures in a classy art gallery is debased. Period.

Maybe you don't get art.

Or the women's underwear section in the JC Penny clothing catalogue. Ya probably, nevertheless it happens tho.

You can turn anything into art..but i'd put down good money on why a grand majority of nude art is created is due to hormones at some level (not including anatomy studies). I'd say that more of the "classical victorian and reniassance era" art rather than the daily life depictions in places, where people don't wear much in daily life anyways.

[Vort]

Getting hormonal over nude sculptures in a classy art gallery is debased. Period.

Maybe you don't get art.

Yes. That must be it.

[Crypto]

 'artistic nudity?'  ....  you are probably jaded. Would the same thing be said while seeing nude men...in various states...'Artistically'? (i'm sure there are some who do)
"Jaded :tired, bored, or lacking enthusiasm, typically after having had too much of something."
(Also classical nude art back then was basically considered as pornography is now)

Change the name call it artistic and suddenly it's okay. (Nudity is still an important tool to learning how the draw the body)

...
...
In a completely different direction, I've also noticed women sometimes say something is 'cute' when the way a guy might describe it as 'sexy'...i'm wondering if sometimes different words are used and understood differently between the genders even if they are basically saying the same thing.

I think i'm on to some thing here...Can't trick me by using different words anymore!

Edited March 19, 2015 by Crypto

[Magus]

Can you consider something to be porn and not consider it to be degrading?  To both women and men?

 

I haven't read 50 Shades - I know it has extended sex scenes in it, but I also know it's not quite the same "literature" as in actual Erotica, which is usually about (give or take) 90% depictions of very lurid, graphic, detailed sex in written form and maybe 10% set up to the sex. 50 Shades seems to be sort of border-line as a genre, trying to be in the realm of an actual fiction novel, you know, with focus on character development and such, but with a fair amount of sex as well, interspersed.

 

I think there's also a difference between writing a sex sene in a novel to depict the experience of the character as a human experience (the entire point of literature in the first place) and writing a sex scene to try and get the reader off. However, it's certainly feasible that the author of 50 Shades may have been trying to do a little of both.

 

I'm not sure I consider 50 Shades to be "porn" in the sense that the erotica genre is porn in written word. There's a novel by Paulo Coehlo (author of The Alchemist) called Eleven Minutes, which is about a Brazillian prostitute and her sexual/spiritual journey in life. It has a number of graphic scenes in it - but I don't consider it porn, because the purpose is to show an honest portrayal of this woman's experiences and how they affected her in who she becomes by the end of the story. There are times in the novel where the character is indeed degraded, but it fulfills the author's purpose to show that she was in a degrading situation. It doesn't try and dress it up in a pornographic way that says "degredation is good."

 

I understand that 50 Shades deals with BDSM themes. For some people, that's very taboo and a lot of people have a closed mind toward BDSM and believe it is degrading under any circumstance. I disagree. BDSM, on face value, is a form of sex, and any sex can be degrading or uplifting depending on how it is used, how the other person feels about it, etc, etc. The actions themselves are not the degrading factor so much as the intent, purpose and reception of those actions. There are a lot of sexual things that people do that one couple would not like and feel degraded by, but another couple would like very much and it would bring them much closer together.

 

So, I know I called 50 Shades "mommy porn," but the reason I called it that was because, like romance novels, a lot of women like to read them because of the romantic and sometimes sexual elements. I'm saying that the intention of the author (whatever it may have been) is irrelevenat to how the book is being read and what it is being used for - and a lot of mommies have apparently been reading 50 Shades for its reputation of sexual content. How someone is reading or using something doesn't make it, of itself, porn - but it makes it porn for the person who is making it porn for themselves.

 

My guess is that the author off 50 Shades did indeed write many, if not all of the scenes, to be sexually arousing and interesting, but I also guess that she probably wrote them to serve the purpose of her over-arching story as well. So I feel it might be a bit too easy and too simple to actually try and label the book "porn," or to try and place it fully in the erotica genre, because there is a story there besides the sex, but one isn't wrong for also pointing out that there is a lot of sex and eroticism in the novel, and that people are getting off on it, and that the author likely intended for those scenes to be an enticing part of the story.

 

Whether or not reading any sexual content in any type of novel, and being aroused by it, is degrading or, in all cases, inherently sinful, is a deeper discussion. I see where it can be, and I see where it could desensitive one to the Spirit, but I'm open to other possibilities as well, as outrageous as that will sound to some.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Magus

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Getting hormonal over nude sculptures in a classy art gallery is debased. Period.

Maybe you don't get art.

 

I agree with Anatess.  It's not just art...there are OB/GYN's that are male.  To me that says men are capable of seeing the female body without getting 'hormonal'.  And there are (or have been) tribes where women are topless...  

[Magus]

With all due respect, anatess, I do not know your son. To me, his is indeed a "random teen-ager". But the point is, he is a pubescent male, so unless he's an outlier, that has some specific and well-defined thought and behavior patterns associated with it.

 

It has been eye-opening to me as an adult to see how little women, even mothers, sometimes understand about men. I don't know if that category includes you, anatess. But if you think your pubescent son is not hormonally influenced by seeing lots of beautiful nude women (or representations thereof) all over the place, you just may be.

 

I will come out and say that in puberty, I sometimes got slightly turned on by nude renaissance art. That's how it goes when you're young and full of hormones. I will also admit that some of it is not at all uneasy on the eyes, to this day. And I've heard plenty of adult women talk about how enjoyable Michaelangelo's "David" is, and not merely artistically speaking.

 

Hot dogs, anyone?

Edited March 20, 2015 by Magus