Compromise - for askandanswer

[Guest]

I got tagged on this FB post yesterday:

http://www.quickmeme.com/news/?p=6527

 

I don't get it.  I thought it was stupid.  Okay, I get the message of being thankful and thinking of your wife and all that... but, learning to like burnt toast and teaching your kid about liking burnt toast is stupid to me.  Fact is - the toast is burnt.  It's not good to eat.

 

So... let me apply this in my family.

 

First:  My dad.

Mom puts burnt toast out for dinner.  Okay, okay... this is never gonna happen because if my mom burnt a toast, it will never make it to the table.  She'll kill herself making good toast before she will serve her precious family burnt toast - or even slightly burnt toast - she simply thinks we deserve her best toast.  But more than likely, she'll go open up a can of our favorite soup instead.  But that's just my mom...

 

But let's just say my mom is so tired that she didn't even realize she put out burnt toast.  My dad will thank my mom for making dinner and hire her a maid to make toast for her from now on.  If he has no money to hire the maid to make the toast... he'll go make the toast for himself, his wife, and his children so my mom won't have to.

 

There's no way he's gonna tell us kids to lie to their spouses and tell them they love burnt toast!  Or even just to learn to love burnt toast!  No way!  This is what my dad will teach his kids - you need to get A's in school, go to college, become a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer so you can have money so your wife will never have to work a day in her life and burn a toast.

 

Second:  My husband.

Now, my husband is a character.  If I ask my husband, "Do I look fat in this dress?", he will say Yes.  If I did not really want to know if I look fat in this dress, I will say, "Honey, I want you to tell me I'm pretty in this dress even if you have to lie about it.".

 

So, of course, my husband will not lie to me and tell me he loves burnt toast if he doesn't.  But, as far as my husband learning to like burnt toast... hah.  That's not happening.  And that's not because he doesn't love me.  He just doesn't feel he needs to love burnt toast to show me he loves me.

 

There's no way my husband is gonna tell my boys to learn to love burnt toast.  This is what he's gonna tell the kids instead.  Go learn to make your own toast and make your spouse one while you're at it.

 

But... that's if I'd ever put burnt toast on the dinner table in the first place.  I mean, I am my mother's daughter..

 

So learning to love burnt toast to show somebody you love them?  What a terrible idea...  This is what I say:  Never teach your kids to settle for burnt toast.  Compromise does not mean learning to love crap.

 

But... that's just me.

 

Of course, this story changes if we say... Mom put out brussel sprouts because she believes it is good for us.  My dad would learn to love brussel sprouts and tell us to learn to love brussel sprouts because - it's good for us even if my dad thinks it tastes like crap.

Edited February 19, 2015 by anatess

[Iggy]

Ah, Anatess, how I would love it if you lived in my Branch!! Together with Sister Cebu Philippines the Elder (60 something plus) and Sister Cebu Philippines the younger (not related, 50 something plus) and the Elders daughter (30 if she is a day), our Branch would be overflowing with good common sense and an overabundance of humor. 

[Vort]

I got tagged on this FB post yesterday:

http://www.quickmeme.com/news/?p=6527

 

I don't get it.  I thought it was stupid.  Okay, I get the message of being thankful and thinking of your wife and all that... but, learning to like burnt toast and teaching your kid about liking burnt toast is stupid to me.  Fact is - the toast is burnt.  It's not good to eat.

 

I think you're missing the point. I'm sure the wife knows perfectly well that her husband does not "like" burnt toast. He says that as a way to tell her he loves her. Similarly, he is not teachng his children they need to learn to like burnt toast; he's teaching them that there are far more important things to worry about than whether the toast is burnt.

[The Folk Prophet]

Either way, I gotta wonder about the lie.

 

I'm sorry I burned the toast.

 

It's okay. - true

 

vs.

 

I love burnt toast. - lie

[Vort]

Is it a lie when everyone knows it's not true, and when everyone knows that everyone knows that?

[Guest]

I think you're missing the point. I'm sure the wife knows perfectly well that her husband does not "like" burnt toast. He says that as a way to tell her he loves her. Similarly, he is not teachng his children they need to learn to like burnt toast; he's teaching them that there are far more important things to worry about than whether the toast is burnt.

 

That would have been true if the father said - I love you honey instead of saying I love burnt toast.

 

And the father was not teaching the kids about "more important things to worry about".  He was teaching them to have compassion for those that don't treat you right and avoiding harsh words.  And he gave that lesson by using his example of saying, I love burnt toast instead of I love you honey - as she served burnt toast.

 

And like I said - you should not have to love burnt toast or even pretend to love burnt toast to show your wife you love her.  There's just no need for it.  Because, just like your wife knows you really didn't like burnt toast, she should also know that you still love her if you don't eat the toast... because, hopefully, you're not a jerk about the burnt toast.

 

Hence... the subject line - COMPROMISE.  Doesn't require you to sacrifice your principles to show somebody you love them.

Edited February 19, 2015 by anatess

[Guest]

[Guest]

Is it a lie when everyone knows it's not true, and when everyone knows that everyone knows that?

 

I don't get it.  Why would you say you like it if everybody knows you don't?  And why would that not make it a lie?

[Guest]

 

Too long, didn't read?

[Guest]

Either way, I gotta wonder about the lie.

 

I'm sorry I burned the toast.

 

It's okay. - true

 

vs.

 

I love burnt toast. - lie

 

 

You can interpret it 2 ways.  1.)  he was lying, or 2.) he learned to love burnt toast.

[Guest]

Ah, Anatess, how I would love it if you lived in my Branch!! Together with Sister Cebu Philippines the Elder (60 something plus) and Sister Cebu Philippines the younger (not related, 50 something plus) and the Elders daughter (30 if she is a day), our Branch would be overflowing with good common sense and an overabundance of humor. 

 

LOL, Iggy!  You should tell Sister Elder, Sister Younger, and Sister Daughter about my dad wanting us to be doctors, lawyers, or engineers... they'll totally get that. 

[Vort]

 

That would have been true if the father said - I love you honey instead of saying I love burnt toast.

 

It was also true given what he said.

 

And the father was not teaching the kids about "more important things to worry about".  He was teaching them to have compassion for those that don't treat you right and avoiding harsh words.  And he gave that lesson by using his example of saying, I love burnt toast instead of I love you honey - as she served burnt toast.

 

So then, you don't believe that treating people kindly and avoiding harsh words are more important things than burnt toast?

 

And like I said - you should not have to love burnt toast or even pretend to love burnt toast to show your wife you love her.

 

So what? The guy in this story demonstrated his love for his wife by eating burnt toast and telling his wife he liked it. Why is that bad?

 

Hence... the subject line - COMPROMISE.  Doesn't require you to sacrifice your principles to show somebody you love them.

 

What principle was being sacrificed?

 

I don't get it.  Why would you say you like it if everybody knows you don't?  And why would that not make it a lie?

 

You would say you like it even if everybody knew you didn't because it's a way of telling your wife you love her. And it's not a lie because there is no deception nor intent of deception.

[Latter Days Guy]

Why all the hate for burnt toast, its the only way to eat toast!

[Laniston]

Butter doesn't melt the same on burnt toast. and if the butter doesn't melt properly the brown sugar won't taste right and what good is your cinammon sugar toast then? only fit to be trodden under the foot of man. 

 

Never compromise on toast. 

[Latter Days Guy]

Butter doesn't melt the same on burnt toast. and if the butter doesn't melt properly the brown sugar won't taste right and what good is your cinammon sugar toast then? only fit to be trodden under the foot of man. 

 

Never compromise on toast. 

 

But then I also like to eat mine cold with a thick coating of butter, the toast is crisp and crunch with the burned taste mixed with the thick butter... Now I'm hungry! 

[Dravin]

I wouldn't say it's stupid, but it's one of many appropriate ways that events could have went down. Personally, it's not the approach I'd take.

[askandanswer]

Thank you Tess. It's only now that I've noticed your reply even though I was in and out of the forum severeal times today. I've just driven 300 kms for a family templd trip and it's 10:40 pm so I'll have to wait until tomorrow before I can re-read your post and think it through more carefully.

[Iggy]

LOL, Iggy!  You should tell Sister Elder, Sister Younger, and Sister Daughter about my dad wanting us to be doctors, lawyers, or engineers... they'll totally get that. 

Br. Elder is a Dr. and Sis Elder is his Nurse. Sister Younger is an accountant working for a water company. Sister Daughter is of course daughter to Dr and Nurse and hubby is State Cop.

 

Dr & Nurse told kids (2 sons & 2 daughters) to NEVER become Dr's or Nurses. or  Lawyers. Takes too long to get successful and takes too much money. 

[Guest]

Br. Elder is a Dr. and Sis Elder is his Nurse. Sister Younger is an accountant working for a water company. Sister Daughter is of course daughter to Dr and Nurse and hubby is State Cop.

 

Dr & Nurse told kids (2 sons & 2 daughters) to NEVER become Dr's or Nurses. or  Lawyers. Takes too long to get successful and takes too much money. 

 

For shame!  Tell them I said they've become westernized!  LOL!

[Vort]

Dr & Nurse told kids (2 sons & 2 daughters) to NEVER become Dr's or Nurses. or  Lawyers. Takes too long to get successful and takes too much money. 

The fools! I've managed to be unsuccessful without ever having gone to medical school. Ha, ha! Burn on them!

[Guest]

It was also true given what he said.

 

 

This is what I don't get.  I don't get why one has to love burnt toast to love the wife.  I don't see how the only way to avoid harsh words is to eat the burnt toast.  So, when I hear it, I just hear - I avoid harsh words by lying, because I don't see much sense in learning to love burnt toast just to show love for the wife.  But, I went ahead and wrote the OP giving leeway for the possibility that the dad learnt to love burnt toast to show love for the wife even if it doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

 

 

So then, you don't believe that treating people kindly and avoiding harsh words are more important things than burnt toast?

 

 

Non sequitur and you know it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what? The guy in this story demonstrated his love for his wife by eating burnt toast and telling his wife he liked it. Why is that bad?

 

 

Because it is not necessary.  One should not feel one has to abandon one's standards to love somebody.  It is burnt toast.  Not even just dark brown toast.  BURNT toast.  And he didn't just eat it silently, he told his wife, "I love burnt toast" when obviously, he doesn't.

 

The original topic that this thread branched out of was askandanswer's question on Attending a Gay Wedding thread.  In that thread, askandanswer asked why in the case of attending a gay wedding, why not just attend the wedding even if you don't want to as a compromise?  And what I said is - it is not necessary to attend a son's gay wedding if you don't want to just to show him you love him... in the exact same manner I said - one should not have to eat burnt toast to show your wife you love her.

 

 

 

 

What principle was being sacrificed?

 

 

Anything the burnt toast represents including the principle of an acceptable literal toast.

 

 

 

 

You would say you like it even if everybody knew you didn't because it's a way of telling your wife you love her. And it's not a lie because there is no deception nor intent of deception.

 

 

It's a lie.  You love burnt toast is a sleight-of-hand deception... even in the interest of good intentions.  That son sitting there just learned you can say whatever untruth you want to say because all you're really wanting to say is you love somebody.

 

This is how it can go down without needing to lie:

Wife:  Sorry, I burnt the toast.

Husband:  It's okay honey, I love you with all my heart and it's just so awesome and amazing that you still made us dinner even if you are so tired.  I am sorry I didn't make the toast so you can just relax and not have to worry about it.

 

Or...for the men who are not very verbose with their feelings:

Wife:  Sorry, I burnt the toast.

Husband:  I love you honey.

 

Did you see how the husband has not sacrificed his toast standards and still did not use harsh words and still showed how he loves his wife?  Lies = completely unnecessary.  He can eat the burnt toast - but he doesn't have to pretend to love it.

 

 

Tell your wife you love her.  She asks you if she looks fat in the dress... and the truth is Yes.. then, tell her you love her and tell her she's pretty.  There is no need to lie about the dress.  If you feel you have to lie to your wife to express your love for her - you might need to work on your communication skills.  If your wife expects you to lie otherwise she'll think you don't love her, something is missing in the relationship that needs to be addressed.

Edited February 20, 2015 by anatess

[Guest]

It's not about loving burnt toast. Again. It's about loving her enough to appreciate her efforts, even though the outcome isn't perfect.

[estradling75]

It's not about loving burnt toast. Again. It's about loving her enough to appreciate her efforts, even though the outcome isn't perfect.

 

That was my understanding too.

 

Or in other words consider the burn toast to be a symbol.   Which you can replace with  "Best effort even though the outcome was not as desired"     That is something you can love about a person

[askandanswer]

The question that led to Tess's response was a request for Tess to elaborate on her understanding of the difference between compromise and bending as Tess stated in one of her posts on the thread about attending a gay marriage that one should not have to bend to show love. I think her response in this thread provides an answer to that question which might be suitable for only a fairly narrow range of circumstances where bending, or compromising might be desirable. In the example of the burnt toast, the husband compromises his principle of honesty in order to relieve any concern his wife might have about the fact that she has burnt the toast and I can see in that example how the same effect  - relieving any concern - could be achieved without the husband compromising his principle of honesty, and I can see how that approach might work. However, as I said, this illustrates only quite a small sub-set of circumstances in which it might not be necessary to compromise and I believe that bending by both partners is an important component of a successful marriage. For example:

 

My wife and I have significantly different beliefs about the relative importance of form and function. I believe that the function of my car is entirely unaffected by how dirty it is or how much rubbish there is in the back seat but she strongly dislikes travelling in a dirty car. We compromise so the car gets washed more often than is needed to maintain satisfactory performance, and less often than she would like.

 

My philosophy of gardening is, with few exceptions, that if something is green and growing, you leave it alone and let it do its thing. My wife's approach is that everything must be in neat, straight, orderly rows and that small well trimmed bushes are greatly preferable to large disorderly trees. So we accommodate each other. In the garden, there are my areas and her areas. We haven't bent but we have learned to accept difference and respect each other's view.

 

We have different approaches to parenting. I much prefer free range parenting where I set few, but firm standards, and then give the kids considerable autonomy. She likes to know where they are, who they are with, what they are doing, and when and how they will get home, and any changes to any of the above. The kids prefer to minimise the amount of information they are willing to give us. We have all reached a compromise whereby the amount of information we want and get from the kids depends on a bunch of variables such as the time and importance of the activity, who else will be there, and whether its a school, social or church activity.Its sometimes more information than I think we need, less information than my wife would like, and more information than what the kids want to give.

 

I think when a partner sees that we are willing to, or actually do, give up/compromise/bend/modify a belief, value, principle or standard, for their sake, that they are likely to appreciate and value that, and maybe even see it as one of the many ways in which we can show love for them, and depending on which principle is being give up, and what it is replaced by, this can be a good thing. Naturally, care should be taken when trying to find the right balance between maintaining one's principles and showing love for one's spouse as there are many situations where holding too closely to one can result in losing the other. 

Ideally, if we have married the right person, the principles or values that we give up or modify are replaced by higher principles that our spouse is already living.  

 

When reflecting on the example of the burnt toast, I have come to the slightly alarming realisation that my own, somewhat churlish response would be to eat all of the toast without comment, good or bad, but to probably not give any appreciation for it, even though my wife has gone out of her way to do something nice for me. That is something that I will need to change.

 

Thank you Tess for taking the time to prepare a well considered reply to my query.

[Guest]

It's not about loving burnt toast. Again. It's about loving her enough to appreciate her efforts, even though the outcome isn't perfect.

And once again, this is not about loving burnt toast. This is about the mistaken thinking of having to love bad things to show someone you love them.