Mental Health and Worthiness

[char713]

Um, <ahem> well, maybe not always...

Yeah, definitely should've been more specific. I crave candor from people who have a right to say something that direct about my situation since they KNOW me and we have a history. Of course I don't crave candor from strangers on the internet whose first impulse is to talk policy rather than compassion.

[Vort]

Yeah, definitely should've been more specific. I crave candor from people who have a right to say something that direct about my situation since they KNOW me and we have a history. Of course I don't crave candor from strangers on the internet whose first impulse is to talk policy rather than compassion.

And yet, here you are...

[Leah]

I don't have a husband. Maybe the church should stop all that dang talking about good husbands. And all that crazy talk about marriage. Better knock that off, too. It's really not fair to single people like me. Soooo insensitive! Don't be asking me to come to the sealing or help with the reception, either. It's just not fair 'cuz i didn't get to do any of that myself.

My father was abusive. I think the church needs to come up with a better term than Heavenly Father since that term is insensitive to people like me. Better scratch that line in "I Am a Child of God", too.

No more talk about sealings, either. It's not fair to those of us who have never been sealed.

And I am super tired of all the talk about institute and seminary. I didn't get to do that so it's not fair to talk about it around me. Ditto for camp. Or mutual. Or Mia Maids. Or Beehives. And please don't tell any awesome mission stories around me, I didn't get to go. And let's not have the returned missionaries speak in sacrament meeting - that is insensitive to those of us who never got to do that.

[char713]

Amazing how you've blown it all way, way out of proportion. I have NEVER ONCE said that Mothers' Day ought not be celebrated or recognized at all at church. I have NEVER ONCE said that people ought never be exposed to examples of or teachings about things with which they cannot immediately relate. Find where I have said any of this, or stop with the flippant comments. 

 

And Vort, it is unlike you to ignore a comment that was addressed to you. Even more unlike you to comment twice afterward without making mention of previous conversation points. This leads me to believe you either find my words ridiculous (not likely, since you'd be all over tearing me down if that were the case) or you simply have nothing to say on the matter. In which case, why are you still here? Free country, free forum, I get that. I submit that you, like omegaseamaster75, are enjoying being contentious for its own sake. I have no problem with letting this thread drift off and disappear, except that others are making constructive comments, and not simply tearing other participants words apart for no apparent reason. 

[Vort]

 

And Vort, it is unlike you to ignore a comment that was addressed to you. Even more unlike you to comment twice afterward without making mention of previous conversation points.

Not sure what you're talking about. I have ignored nothing. When you make a point that I find worth commenting on, I'll comment. Meanwhile, I'm trying to be charitable in my conversation with you.

 

This leads me to believe you either find my words ridiculous (not likely, since you'd be all over tearing me down if that were the case) or you simply have nothing to say on the matter. In which case, why are you still here?

Not sure what your problem is. You are wrong, of course, about your whining that people might dare to sing "I'm So Glad When Daddy Comes Home", but I haven't made a big deal about that. You're entitled to your opinion.

 

I submit that you, like omegaseamaster75, are enjoying being contentious for its own sake.

I submit that you need to learn to read more carefully. I have passed up all sorts of opportunities to increase contention in this thread and shove your words down your throat. Such is the powerful effect of my innocent brown eyes.

 

I have no problem with letting this thread drift off and disappear, except that others are making constructive comments, and not simply tearing other participants words apart for no apparent reason. 

char, do you realize that your accusations against me not only don't make sense, they contradict each other?

[char713]

My "accusations" against you have been three, maybe four.

 

-That a statement you made was judged by me to be condescending and insensitive. 

-That you are of the opinion that majorities, rather than minorities, are the ones to whom we ought to pay the most attention and care, regardless of anyone's feelings unless the are in the majority. 

-And finally here, that you are not commenting for any apparent reason but to point out what you feel are inconsistencies in my character, the most recent of which was the result of human error.. i.e. me not explicitly typing out e.x.a.c.t.l.y. what I meant and stupidly leaving it open to your interpretation.

-And maybe you consider it an accusation that I pointed out your lack of response to a previous post of mine. 

 

By all means, let me have it. Why you are feeling so prone to increasing contention that you have to restrain yourself so is beyond me. It is my feelings that are caught up in this subject, my everyday life, and yet I have said nothing more aggressive or contentious than those three or four statements above. You pat yourself on the back for not "shoving my words down my throat" but I am the one being very personally attacked here. I recall words used, by not just yourself, granted, words such as whiny, bitter, close [sic] minded, self centered, insensitive, seething resentment, presumptuous, pathetic, in need of therapy and medication (private matters, not for a stranger to say), and I have all-but been called a delusional liar on a couple of occassions. I did not pull a single one of those out of context, I didn't need to. And yet you are the one having to pass up opportunities to put me in my place?

 

You mentioned the primary song as an example, quite a while ago too. I responded to your example and provided my own, and others have since run with it. Are you related to whomever wrote the song, and that's why the mere suggestion that it might not be the most appropriate choice of song in ALL scenarios is so inflammatory to you? I do understand that it conveys an important message, one that I hope all children might be able to confidently express. I have NEVER ONCE suggested that it never be sung again. I used it simply as an example of how teachers and leaders might show a tiny bit more consideration for those whose lives are not quite as peachy-keen as the lyrics happily proclaim. I very much regret responding to that particular tangent at all, clearly the song and its subject matter far, far more to some than I could have predicted. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by char713

[lagarthaaz]

I do think it is okay to sing primary songs regardless of what the background might be. I think it is good to be sensitive but we each have to draw the line for ourselves. Should the children with fathers miss out because other children are fatherless, fostered, or abused? It is a question of do you cater to the majority or minority? How could both be catered to? I don't know the answer to that. I know the following aren't near as common and not the best examples. I will say them anyways though- should we stop praying in sacrament because some people may be deaf? Should we stop eating bread at sacrament because some people can't eat anything by mouth? There are interpreters for the deaf though. Would it be possible to have some sort of "interpreter" figure work for children in broken homes regarding primary songs? I don't know. What I do know is I trust the Prophet and the apostles to receive revelation at the right time if changes need to be made. Maybe it is a problem that will initiate change in the future. Until then, I will encourage my children to belt out those primary songs that warm my heart!

 

How good for you, how nice for you that your children can 'belt out' any Primary song they like and never have to feel 'different', excluded or hurt when they hear certain lyrics. Give yourself a big pat on the back.

 

Your examples are extreme and not at all what I think anyone in this thread has suggested. Of course we should sing songs about families in Primary, but if we have a diverse group (which my Primary certainly is), then we need to be sensitive to the needs of all the children. It's not a difficult concept - show consideration and love for ALL the children - not just 99, not just 1.  I don't know why anyone finds this idea so hard to wrap their heads around.

Edited March 19, 2015 by lagarthaaz

[lagarthaaz]

I don't have a husband. Maybe the church should stop all that dang talking about good husbands. And all that crazy talk about marriage. Better knock that off, too. It's really not fair to single people like me. Soooo insensitive! Don't be asking me to come to the sealing or help with the reception, either. It's just not fair 'cuz i didn't get to do any of that myself.

My father was abusive. I think the church needs to come up with a better term than Heavenly Father since that term is insensitive to people like me. Better scratch that line in "I Am a Child of God", too.

No more talk about sealings, either. It's not fair to those of us who have never been sealed.

And I am super tired of all the talk about institute and seminary. I didn't get to do that so it's not fair to talk about it around me. Ditto for camp. Or mutual. Or Mia Maids. Or Beehives. And please don't tell any awesome mission stories around me, I didn't get to go. And let's not have the returned missionaries speak in sacrament meeting - that is insensitive to those of us who never got to do that.

 

Silly, extreme examples that are not reflective of what anyone in this thread has suggested.

[lagarthaaz]

I'm sorry you had to go through this Lagathaaz.  

 

I have a friend who's a convert to the church, and likewise has a poor example of a father.  Because of this background, she struggles relating to a "Heavenly Father" as someone whom would remotely care about her (because her earthly dad sure doesn't).  I once heard a sermon about this type of thing:

 

"If you look at your earthly father, and try to extrapolate what God is like from that, you're doing it wrong.  God is the original Father.  All measures of earthly fathers are reflections of Him: of what a father should be (and fall short of)."  (I would then extrapolate this to Mother's as well).

 

(I know these are small words from a stranger on the internet who's never been through the things you've been through, and I know that no little words will make your pain better, but I hope that maybe they will help a tiny amount).

 

Thanks Jane :)   I do appreciate you even acknowledging what I said since most people find it hard to say anything at all. I get it - my story is uncomfortable and confronting and so it's not one most people can relate to or have an opinion on. You area a lovely 'stranger' on the internet to say such kind things. I do know that the knowledge that I have a Father in Heaven who loves me, along with a sure testimony of my Savior Jesus Christ, has sustained me through the years it took to work out the 'why me?' questions I had. I love the ideals of family that are taught in the church and I truly enjoy hearing people speak about loving parents and families growing up. It is those ideals that I have tried to incorporate into my own family. 

[Treble.clef]

How good for you, how nice for you that your children can 'belt out' any Primary song they like and never have to feel 'different', excluded or hurt when they hear certain lyrics. Give yourself a big pat on the back.

Your examples are extreme and not at all what I think anyone in this thread has suggested. Of course we should sing songs about families in Primary, but if we have a diverse group (which my Primary certainly is), then we need to be sensitive to the needs of all the children. It's not a difficult concept - show consideration and love for ALL the children - not just 99, not just 1. I don't know why anyone finds this idea so hard to wrap their heads around.

Nope, no pats on the back over here. I am sorry if I have upset you, as it seems I may have. That was not my intention. My intention is to express my views. I am also sorry for what you have had to go through. I know life is not easy for anyone and some issues are very sensitive. I agree my examples were extreme but I could not think of better ones at the time. Do you have some examples you would like to share that aren't extreme?

I can relate to feeling different, excluded, and hurt when I reflect on primary songs and my childhood. You have shared some of what you have gone though. I do not wish to share. Why do I still encourage the singing of all primary songs? Firstly, because I have deep love and appreciation for all primary songs. One primary song in particular helped me get through hard times. Secondly, because some of the primary songs are the ideal family life for every child. Every child deserves to not have a broken home, and to have good, loving parents around who live the Gospel. Unfortunately, this world is not perfect. Satan targets families. Mistakes are made. Parents may pass away. I will root for the happy/for the celebration of ideal family life/for the primary songs. It is a hope I have for every child.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Treble.clef

[Treble.clef]

Silly, extreme examples that are not reflective of what anyone in this thread has suggested.

 

Silly, extreme examples are okay. Silly and extreme are YOUR opinions that other people may not agree with. Maybe those examples really helped other people that aren't participating on this thread. Maybe it was an example that someone really needed to read. Good for Leah for expressing what she wished.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Treble.clef

[Treble.clef]

my story is uncomfortable and confronting and so it's not one most people can relate to or have an opinion on.

 

I don't agree with your view on opinions. I think everyone has a right to their own opinion, whether or not they have experienced the same thing. I think no one has the right to declare that someone else does not have a right to their own opinion. You have a right to your opinion regardless of whether you can relate to something or not.

[char713]

Silly, extreme examples are okay. Silly and extreme are YOUR opinions that other people may not agree with. Maybe those examples really helped other people that aren't participating on this thread. Maybe it was an example that someone really needed to read. Good for Leah for expressing what she wished.

 

You think someone who is not participating in this thread would be helped in their life in some way by Leah mocking me, and what she perceives me to have said? How does sarcasm help anyone, ever? Sure it can give a laugh if that's what you need, so maybe there's that. 

 

I don't agree with your view on opinions. I think everyone has a right to their own opinion, whether or not they have experienced the same thing. I think no one has the right to declare that someone else does not have a right to their own opinion. You have a right to your opinion regardless of whether you can relate to something or not.

 

I'm sorry but you have completely misunderstood lagarthazz here. I believe she meant "my story is uncomfortable and confronts people with such a harsh reality that they may not feel like it is appropriate to form an opinion" which often is the case. Something this horrible and difficult happens to a good person, it might be difficult for anyone else to respond with anything more than "I'm so sorry that has happened to you." 

[omegaseamaster75]

You think someone who is not participating in this thread would be helped in their life in some way by Leah mocking me, and what she perceives me to have said? How does sarcasm help anyone, ever? Sure it can give a laugh if that's what you need, so maybe there's that. 

 

 

I don't see that Leah mocked you. You may perceive it that way, but it doesn't make it true

 

 

I'm sorry but you have completely misunderstood lagarthazz here. I believe she meant "my story is uncomfortable and confronts people with such a harsh reality that they may not feel like it is appropriate to form an opinion" which often is the case. Something this horrible and difficult happens to a good person, it might be difficult for anyone else to respond with anything more than "I'm so sorry that has happened to you." 

It might be more difficult to respond how you have mentioned, but it is pretty arrogant to discount their opinion just because they haven't experienced the exact same thing.

[mordorbund]

TFP, Mordorbund, Pam, any other pretenders: Read it and weep.

 

For those not in on the reference, TFP has an in-forum reputation for being grating and insensitive. I have been accused of such off-forum. And Pam's a moderator, so she's always a front-runner.

 

If char is the one handing out prizes, then we all lose to Vort.

[Treble.clef]

You think someone who is not participating in this thread would be helped in their life in some way by Leah mocking me, and what she perceives me to have said? How does sarcasm help anyone, ever? Sure it can give a laugh if that's what you need, so maybe there's that. 

 

 

I'm sorry but you have completely misunderstood lagarthazz here. I believe she meant "my story is uncomfortable and confronts people with such a harsh reality that they may not feel like it is appropriate to form an opinion" which often is the case. Something this horrible and difficult happens to a good person, it might be difficult for anyone else to respond with anything more than "I'm so sorry that has happened to you." 

 

Yeah, Leah's post may not have been the perfect example  It could still help someone. Laughter is the best medicine they say. I am sorry you feel like you were mocked. I think sarcasm can be helpful sometimes, but that is really subjective and circumstantial. I am glad Leah spoke up. Maybe it can inspire someone else to speak up again or jump into this thread if they are not already in it. There is no need to apologize that you think I have completely understood lagarthazz. Who is to say whether it's appropriate to form an opinion/speak up? To go a little further, who is to say (other than the moderators and kudos to them for what they do) whether expressing an opinion/speaking up is appropriate or not? I think the answer for this forum is (moderators aside) we each need to decide for ourselves.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Treble.clef

[Treble.clef]

 to discount their opinion just because they haven't experienced the exact same thing.

 

I am guilty of this sometimes and need to improve. Thanks for your comment, omegaseamaster75.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Treble.clef

[The Folk Prophet]

TFP has an in-forum reputation for being grating and insensitive.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

First a preamble: My wife and I are going on 18 years of infertility, above-and-beyond fertility treatments, and tens of thousands upon thousands of wasted dollars in pursuit of this matter.

 

Please consider anyone in your acquaintance who may be suffering through grief caused by infertility or child loss, and NEVER say this in their presence. For the sake of your friendship.

 

anatess, just FYI, as for the infertility thing, there ain't many out there who can hold a candle to me and my wife's level of infertility, and I still consider you a friend and wasn't offending in the least by anything you've said.

 

If one can't have children, adopt. If one can't adopt either, then trust the Lord. He'll bless you with family as He has promised if you are faithful. There's nothing offensive in these ideas.

 

The opinion of many, if not most victims of infertility or child loss within the church, is that the "every woman a mother" type of talk is well-intentioned, but still, very condescending. 

 

How is it condescending? Do you doubt that you are meant to be a mother if you only remain true and suffer through this mortal probation, the same as we all must? Is it not your eternal destiny?

 

It is not an uncertainty or possiblity that celebrating and exhalting the role of motherhood or fatherhood is hurtful to infertile couples. It is certain that it does. We are told almost constantly that to have a family is the height of possible happiness, and much of the reason for which we are here on earth, and that parenthood is the most perfect realization of either gender's role. The reminders are nearly constant, that blessings and experiences and relationships are being withheld from us, for whatever reason.. and that there is so very little we can do about it except wait to patiently and faithfully on the Lord's timing. 

 

Waiting patiently and faithfully on the Lord's timing is the answer, is it not?

 

 

 

We are persecuted by our peers, often on purpose. Your comment about "bruised feelings" grossly minimizes the problem. There are faithful members who are driven to attempt suicide over this, brought down and so emotionally weakened that they are, in moments of desperation, willing to risk their lives and salvation to be freed from their grief. I am not saying that because a few people are brought to such dangerous thoughts and actions that we should do away with all teachings about the family, that would be insane. But there has to be more room made for sensitivity and consideration. Something as insignificant as a feel-good primary song, or a holiday to recognize the "elite" is hardly more important than the depression, shame, and grief that is experienced by (statistically) dozens of couples in every ward and stake across the world.

 

I expect (and I admit I'm reading into this a bit) that your sense of persecution on this is your own, and not reality. My wife and I have never been "persecuted". Whereas people do say insensitive things, my job is to forgive and forget and understand. It's our burden to bear, and to turn that burden into accusations and bitterness would harm only us.

 

It is the culture, not doctrine or policy that is the problem. Not a lot that can be done about that other than by individuals, and maybe bishops. Well, the YW lessons as I remember them could use a little more reality.. acknowledging that not everyone will get married, not everyone will have children, and that there is much, much more to womanhood than either of those roles contain. The lessons themselves ought to say as much because leaders might choose to shrink from talking about those subjects if left to their own discretion alone. And I really wish the holidays of Mother's and Father's day might not be part of sacrament meeting. If the opening prayer mentions it, or if the Bishopric says something brief at the beginning or end of the meeting is one thing. But making it the subject of the whole meeting, and of the second and third block meetings as well is quite inappropriate. I have heard the same opinion from people other than those simply struggling with childlessness. Sisters who have lost their mothers, or who have wayward children, and single sisters especially, I have read that most of them would rather it be done away with altogether. 

 

Even mothers hate Mother's Day meetings. Apparently they're offensive to everyone.

 

A blessing that is necessary for the exhaltation of everyone has been withheld, 

 

But not necessary in this life.

 

 

 

 because the chance of "hurt feelings" is insignificant and beneath your notice.

 

This is extreme and outside the reality of what's been said. Hurt feelings happen with any issues with which we suffer. The contention isn't that those hurt feelings don't count. It's whether they count more or less than the core teachings and focus of the church. It is my perspective that I ought to be willing to suffer hurt feelings to uphold these core important teachings. I don't believe it is proper for the church or even the culture to back off on expressing the importance of family because some of us cannot have them.

 

The reality, char713, is that it is not the church's or the culture's responsibility to change because you are suffering. It is your responsibility to change. And that is true for every person who ever lives. It is our own responsibility to humble ourselves and to forgive and forget, to love and to serve, and to trust in the Lord and His kingdom and methods implicitly. God will take care of His church. Your job, as with all of us, is to forget yourself and go to work. And that is the only answer. Your agency, your salvation, your eternal reward, is up to you and you alone.

 

People can be insensitive. People ARE insensitive. In response, we should smile, love, and serve them more. Focusing inwardly, being centered on self and individual trials and hurt is not what we are called to do. Judging other's instead of working to improve ourselves is exactly the wrong response to trials.

 

Whatever trials we happen to face, we get up and we lift where we stand to the best of our ability, and we love others and do our best to uplift and help them. That is OUR responsibility individual, and we have no right to judge other's based on our interpretation of their failures.

 

You are tending towards severe over-sensitivity. I suggest you stop worrying about others mourning with you and worry more about mourning with others -- and not just those who share in the same trial you do.

 

There now. Does that earn me the right to the accusatory statements made about me in this thread?

[omegaseamaster75]

First a preamble: My wife and I are going on 18 years of infertility, above-and-beyond fertility treatments, and tens of thousands upon thousands of wasted dollars in pursuit of this matter.

 

 

Bet Char didn't see that one coming.....

 

"The opinion of many, if not most victims of infertility or child loss within the church, is that the "every woman a mother" type of talk is well-intentioned, but still, very condescending. "

 

I find it sad that you Char so closely associate the idea of motherhood with only the biological aspect of it.

 

Motherhood is SO much more.

 

I personally know people who have no right to be entrusted with the life of a child yet they are able to reproduce and do so anyways, their kids have no chance.......

 

Just because you can doesn't mean that you should.

[Guest]

The problem with this thread is that we're only talking about "don't do this, don't teach this, don't sing this" because it hurts whoever... Nobody - especially those who are the "hurt" - is saying what SHOULD be done, taught, sung.

So, I have a brilliant idea. Mother's Day is fast approaching. I strongly encourage those who are infertile, etc... let me call y'all out - char173, Eowyn, lagarthaaz, Mrs. TFP, who did I miss?.. to go approach your RS/YW Presidents and tell them you want to teach the lessons for the day. Then approach your Bishopric and tell them you want to plan out the "Recognition of Mothers" during Sacrament Meeting and even assign you a talk during Sacrament Meeting.

I'm sure the ward could learn from y'all. Go.

... bonus: Share with us here what you intend to do/teach/etc.

Edited March 19, 2015 by anatess

[char713]

Having just returned from a fun day of chasing my two little nephews around, I find myself without the energy to compose thoughtful-enough responses to all of your newest posts and messages. Just wanted to let everyone know that I have not ignored them, or run away from the conversation. 

 

Just one thing though for tonight. I did make a response on the last page, I think, in response to Backroads about what I think are the best things to say when bringing up this subject with a friend who you either know or suspect to be dealing with fertility issues.  That post does not necessarily adequately speak to what Anatess is suggesting that I might write, but I wanted to try to correct the misjudgement that no positive suggestions have ever been made here. 

 

More tomorrow.

[yjacket]

At the risk of injecting myself into a messy conversation and the fact that I do not have a lot of time right now to response . . . here goes.

 

Char, 1st off let me say that I have no idea the pain, suffering and anguish you are going through and to be quite honest even those who struggle with the same issue don't fully understand.  And that is okay.  One does not need to feel your pain, exactly like you do to provide wise guidance or counsel.  The absolute beauty of the Gospel is in the healing power of the Atonement.  I would counsel that instead of focusing outward on what other people say or do, or even what the Church does or says as a group that you focus on the absolute marvelous Healing power of the Atonement for you.

 

The Atonement covers so much more than sin; Christ descended below all things and suffered greater than you or I specifically so He would know exactly what it feels like when we go through our trails.  He is the only Being who has ever lived on this Earth that understand perfectly what you are going through.  Do not go down the bitter path of being angry, upset at the world for every perceived slight that brings to remembrance your pain. Rely upon the merits and grace of Jesus Christ to Heal you. If you let Him, He will guide you to the path and to the individuals who will be able to help you overcome these struggles.  If you let Him, you will be able to get to the point where infertility will not sting you like an open wound.

 

However, it is your choice to allow Him to work His miracle in your life.  You can continue down the current path of extreme sadness and (from what I have read and detect) bitterness and anger, or you can give this struggle over to Him.  We don't know why some of us are faced with the challenges given . . .why in the prime of life did my wife get Stage IV cancer come within an inch of dying and have any future children gone. . .why are you infertile . . . why are some children fatherless, why do some face the challenges of depression . . .etc?  The why doesn't really matter, it is how we respond that matters.  Do we choose to be overcome with bitterness, sadness, anger, etc. that it clouds our minds to rob us of the joy and happiness that God wants for us?  Do we become angry, bitter at God?  Do we curse God and hope to die? 

 

Or do we turn our life over to Him, humble submit to His will and simply say "If it be possible let this bitter cup pass, nevertheless not as I will by as thine".  I personally throughout my life have experienced all and I have to say that while it is okay to let ourselves feel the full range of emotions . . . .but being angry, bitter or overcome with sadness doesn't really do any good.  It stops us, literally damning us by preventing us from Seeing God's miracles in our lives.  From seeing that He weeps with us, the rain is His tears, that He is always trying to help us Listen to Him to allow Him to work mighty miracles.  If we endure well our trials and sufferings, He will exalt us on high . . . and it isn't even in the future. We can learn how to Hear His voice in our lives.  It is the refiners fire of life.

 

I personally have endured much . . . but I know there are those who have and who will endure more. I only hope that I can endure my trials well enough that I will do God's will on this earth and that other's might see through me Christ's love. And regardless of my pain, I want others to feel as much happiness in this life as possible; while there are things that I will not have the opportunity to have, I will take joy in other's joy.  

 

One of my favorite lds videos-he could have tried to suck the joy out of others, but he didn't:

Edited March 20, 2015 by yjacket

[lagarthaaz]

There has to be a happy medium somewhere. I wouldn't necessarily have primary kids sing "I'm so glad when daddy comes home" if I know one of the kids' parents have separated in the past few months; and possibly not under any circumstances if I knew one of the kids had been--say--sexually abused by their father.

On the other hand, kids from nontraditional families are, at some point, just going to have to grapple with the fact that some other kids were luckier than they. Primaries consisting of 50+ kids can't walk on eggshells in perpetuity because of one child's prolonged failure to confront that reality. I believe it does ultimately fall back on the child's caregiver to ensure that proper coping mechanisms are being utilized.

 

This  is the most sensible response I've read in this thread. I totally believe there is a happy medium...we can  be aware of the children and their needs without losing any of our important gospel messages. We can't walk on eggshells for sure, but we can (and should)  be mindful of the children's circumstances as they occur.

 

Of course we don't do away with songs about families, mothers, fathers; but if we know (for example) that a child has lost a parent to divorce, or even death, then of course we would make every effort not to add to that child's pain at that time. I do have a reasonably large Primary to watch over - we average about 30-40 kids each week. Ours is a diverse ward, both culturally and socio-economically, and many of our children are from sole-parent families. We have some regular foster children too. One little boy in foster care I've now been teaching and meeting with each week for a couple of years (he gets rotated around foster families in the ward because of his high behavioural needs) is just the kind of child I'm mindful of. During a lesson on being a 'child of God' one week, I told the children how Heavenly Father loved each one of them and he flat out told me that 'no, God does not love me'. Then I told him that I loved him too, and he shook his head and said 'no you don't'. Imagine what it's like being that little boy - who believes that no-one loves him?  It's just heartbreaking.  What's really nice now, is that after a couple of years of seeing me every week and showing him individual attention, he now loves to sit by me and put his arm around me while we sing Primary songs or do activities. I always give him a cuddle and tell him I love him and lately he hasn't been saying 'no, you don't'.  He recently started putting his hand up to come up the front and lead the actions to songs in Sharing Time and when I told his carers, they were gobsmacked because he just doesn't open up like that. It doesn't take much to show love and compassion for a few hours on a Sunday - the other children still get the usual round of favourite songs with gospel messages; and kids like him get to feel normal and safe and accepted as he should be in the Lord's church.

[lagarthaaz]

Nope, no pats on the back over here. I am sorry if I have upset you, as it seems I may have. That was not my intention. My intention is to express my views. I am also sorry for what you have had to go through. I know life is not easy for anyone and some issues are very sensitive. I agree my examples were extreme but I could not think of better ones at the time. Do you have some examples you would like to share that aren't extreme?

I can relate to feeling different, excluded, and hurt when I reflect on primary songs and my childhood. You have shared some of what you have gone though. I do not wish to share. Why do I still encourage the singing of all primary songs? Firstly, because I have deep love and appreciation for all primary songs. One primary song in particular helped me get through hard times. Secondly, because some of the primary songs are the ideal family life for every child. Every child deserves to not have a broken home, and to have good, loving parents around who live the Gospel. Unfortunately, this world is not perfect. Satan targets families. Mistakes are made. Parents may pass away. I will root for the happy/for the celebration of ideal family life/for the primary songs. It is a hope I have for every child.

 

You haven't upset me at all - I simply disagreed with the self-congratulatory comment about how great it is for YOUR kids to feel happy to sing any Primary song.  That's great for them.  But let's not forget about the others who aren't so lucky.  On reflection I don't think that you intended for your comments to come across that way, and I'm sorry too for the sarcastic response.