Mental Health and Worthiness


char713
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I am not arguing we shouldn't. We should all extend consideration to everyone. My point was about the assumption that Char bragged and that she deserved the jab she got. Unmerited and uncalled for, in my view. Unless we know Char or we were there, none of us can know if she was bragging therefore since we are all clueless about it, why not do as grandma used to say when we were kids "If you don't have anything nice to say...."

 

 

And yet wasn't Char just talking about how hard she finds it in church because everyone else is "bragging" about their motherhood and kids?  Statements that were just as likely to be made in as much innocence as Char comment about praying for Job promotion?   Why is one person's statement deemed innocent to the sensitivity of the people around her and the other one not?

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Oh, right. Because I have a problem that often makes me more aware of other people's good fortune than my own means I can never ask for prayers or support unless I am referring exactly to that same problem. I am not allowed to ask for help in public. I am not allowed to ask for help in public. *Repeat ad infinitum* 

 

By that same token, any young mothers who might be emotionally struggling with their own employment or financial situation but are happy to be having another baby have no right (by your score) to raise their hands in church and ask for prayers that their difficult pregnancy improves.

 

This is the first time I have brought up the subject of my infertility and the difficulties it causes for me at church and in other social/group situations in any kind of public arena, btw. Thanks so much for making it memorable and a grave reminder never to do so again. 

Edited by char713
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And yet wasn't Char just talking about how hard she finds it in church because everyone else is "bragging" about their motherhood and kids?

 

This thread has 8 pages, could you please write the exact posts you are referring to?

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This thread has 8 pages, could you please write the exact posts you are referring to?

 

I was summarizing my understanding of her complaints.

 

We have been give two very personal examples of people dealing with infertility.

 

Char and TFP.

 

Both have the problem both, have to deal with members of various levels of insensitively.  Clearly the insensitivity is not good but they appear to be handling it in profoundly different ways.  

 

So we can try to teach members to be more sensitive which is good, but opens a whole bunch of other "sensitive issues" which is broad and deep and we will never hit the bottom of...  And requires us to change the attitudes of people we will never see.

 

Or we can deal with the people here interacting with us on the forum and try to help them become more Christ-like in their reactions

 

The Latter seems much more doable to me.

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It is unmerited because you do not know her, therefore the assumption you are making could be completely erroneous. Why take the chance and post that she deserves it when you could be so wrong about her bragging? An unwise course of action in my view.

 

We must be crossing lines, I said most passive brags are done subconsciously. Hence the need to be more self aware which most people are not. I am sure that the passive brag in question was not meant as such. However when she was "called out" on it by a snide remark from another person the automatic assumption is that they are attacking her personal problem? Sorry it's a big world and someone can't pick on you about something they know nothing about.

 

Intentional or not the forum in which said passive brag took place was not the correct forum to ask for help aka prayers it was a forum to express thankfulness.

 

 

Hmmm stereotyping much? Sounds very chauvinistic/sexist if you ask me.

 

If the shoe fits....

 

Tell me I'm wrong.....women aren't catty?

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I was summarizing my understanding of her complaints.

 

We have been give two very personal examples of people dealing with infertility.

 

Char and TFP.

 

Both have the problem both, have to deal with members of various levels of insensitively.  Clearly the insensitivity is not good but they appear to be handling it in profoundly different ways.  

 

So we can try to teach members to be more sensitive which is good, but opens a whole bunch of other "sensitive issues" which is broad and deep and we will never hit the bottom of...  And requires us to change the attitudes of people we will never see.

 

Or we can deal with the people here interacting with us on the forum and try to help them become more Christ-like in their reactions

 

The Latter seems much more doable to me.

 

I might add that my comments, per discussion directly with her on the matter, also represent my wife's take on things.

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I was summarizing my understanding of her complaints.

 

We have been give two very personal examples of people dealing with infertility.

 

Char and TFP.

 

Both have the problem both, have to deal with members of various levels of insensitively.  Clearly the insensitivity is not good but they appear to be handling it in profoundly different ways.  

 

So we can try to teach members to be more sensitive which is good, but opens a whole bunch of other "sensitive issues" which is broad and deep and we will never hit the bottom of...  And requires us to change the attitudes of people we will never see.

 

Or we can deal with the people here interacting with us on the forum and try to help them become more Christ-like in their reactions

 

The Latter seems much more doable to me.

 

 

I suppose we are summarizing and understand her posts differently. What I got from her posts is that she is asking people to be more sensitive and also perhaps consideration for inclusion. I just do not understand some of the responses she got, and I am baffled at how some people just cannot see it. Perhaps my take is usually through a psychological perspective, trying to understand that people talks through their pain. Most of the time, they just need validation, kindness and consideration specially when they decided to share such personal issue online. I believe a few posts on this thread fell short of that.

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I suppose we are summarizing and understand her posts differently. What I got from her posts is that she is asking people to be more sensitive and also perhaps consideration for inclusion. I just do not understand some of the responses she got, and I am baffled at how some people just cannot see it. Perhaps my take is usually through a psychological perspective, trying to understand that people talks through their pain. Most of the time, they just need validation, kindness and consideration specially when they decided to share such personal issue online. I believe a few posts on this thread fell short of that.

 

It is the internet....  You get all kinds different persectives and ideas many of which will come no where near what a person might expect or wish for.  

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Oh, right. Because I have a problem that often makes me more aware of other people's good fortune than my own means I can never ask for prayers or support unless I am referring exactly to that same problem. I am not allowed to ask for help in public. I am not allowed to ask for help in public. *Repeat ad infinitum*

I don't believe estradling said anything of the sort. I think he pointed out a perceived inconsistency in your discourse:

  • On the one hand, you take offense and are hurt when others celebrate parenthood, a state that has (so far) been denied to you, and you accuse those people of insensitivity.
     
  • On the other hand, you inform others of your own happy and comfortable financial state by engaging in what omegaseamaster characterizes as "passive bragging" (which I assume is the same as a "humblebrag"*) in asking for prayers so your husband can get a juicy promotion.

    *humblebrag: "We settled on buying the new Beemer because we simply could not justify the Rolls."

Surely you can see that those flirting with bankruptcy, who in middle age have always drowned in debt and rented apartments because they could never get enough money to make a down payment on a house, who have only dreamed of ever working for some big company, much less be an important executive in it or who otherwise simply never have been and never will be among the financially successful, might view your simple request for prayers the way someone whose sister is dying of cancer might view another's request for prayers that her own sister might win the beauty contest.

 

So how is your sincere request for prayers for a blessing for your husband's promotion fundamentally different from other people's desire to celebrate parenthood, their own or others? In both cases, someone is taking offense at the insensitivity of others.

 

By that same token, any young mothers who might be emotionally struggling with their own employment or financial situation but are happy to be having another baby have no right (by your score) to raise their hands in church and ask for prayers that their difficult pregnancy improves.

 

This is utterly non sequitur. Apples to Buicks.

 

This is the first time I have brought up the subject of my infertility and the difficulties it causes for me at church and in other social/group situations in any kind of public arena, btw. Thanks so much for making it memorable and a grave reminder never to do so again. 

 

Well, since you bring it up...

 

In general, sharing intensely personal trials should only be done with great care and judiciousness. If you are that sensitive about your childless state, then it's probably not a good idea to get on a public discussion board and start talking about it.

Edited by Vort
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We must be crossing lines, I said most passive brags are done subconsciously. Hence the need to be more self aware which most people are not. I am sure that the passive brag in question was not meant as such. However when she was "called out" on it by a snide remark from another person the automatic assumption is that they are attacking her personal problem? Sorry it's a big world and someone can't pick on you about something they know nothing about.

 

Intentional or not the forum in which said passive brag took place was not the correct forum to ask for help aka prayers it was a forum to express thankfulness.

 

 

If the shoe fits....

 

Tell me I'm wrong.....women aren't catty?

 

Are you a woman?

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So how is your sincere request for prayers for a blessing for your husband's promotion fundamentally different from other people's desire to celebrate parenthood, their own or others? In both cases, someone is taking offense at the insensitivity of others.

 

Because in my case, I have never said anything or complained to anyone who unwittingly hurt my feelings. Over these seven years, the only people who have heard from me about the subject are my parents, one of my sisters, my husband, my therapist and support groups/forums of other people going through the same thing.. and now all of you lovely people. I have never tapped anyone on the shoulder and said anything pointed, or that could be misconstrued as such, about their situation or my own. Generally speaking, I don't initiate any personal conversations with anyone with whom I do not already have a really strong rapport. I'm not saying that everyone is or ought to be the same as me. I am just pointing out the difference between asking for prayers for something we have worked hard to be ready for, and actually engaging someone else in a conversation meant to correct or insult them. 

 

In general, sharing intensely personal trials should only be done with great care and judiciousness. If you are that sensitive about your childless state, then it's probably not a good idea to get on a public discussion board and start talking about it.

 

In general, I'm sure you're right. I've just been spoiled I guess, having engaged with so many others outside of the church for so long on the matter, and for the most part having uplifting experiences there. I foolishly assumed that a forum of church members would be an even more safe place, since we are instructed so often to be charitable and Christlike. My mistake. 

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Because in my case, I have never said anything or complained to anyone who unwittingly hurt my feelings. [...] I'm not saying that everyone is or ought to be the same as me. I am just pointing out the difference between asking for prayers for something we have worked hard to be ready for, and actually engaging someone else in a conversation meant to correct or insult them. 

 

A reasonable distinction. I think estradling's point (as I understood it) is still valid.

 

In general, I'm sure you're right. I've just been spoiled I guess, having engaged with so many others outside of the church for so long on the matter, and for the most part having uplifting experiences there. I foolishly assumed that a forum of church members would be an even more safe place, since we are instructed so often to be charitable and Christlike. My mistake. 

 

Your sharing was in the context of criticizing others for daring to suggest that e.g. singing "I'm So Glad When Daddy Comes Home" is acceptable. Surely you cannot have thought that those you were criticizing with your example should therefore just shut up and accept whatever you say uncritically, because hey, it's a personal example.

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Your sharing was in the context of criticizing others for daring to suggest that e.g. singing "I'm So Glad When Daddy Comes Home" is acceptable. Surely you cannot have thought that those you were criticizing with your example should therefore just shut up and accept whatever you say uncritically, because hey, it's a personal example.

Try again. It was at least a full page of comments earlier than that. 

 

Edit: My original sharing was on post #12. The ones you are referring to are on #49 and #54. And those responses were following several from a few other people, who were following the thread that YOU started the first time you mentioned the Primary song.

 

Edit again: I just went through every one of my posts on this thread. Post 49 I used the words "say or sing" and that was the ONLY other reference to your original point about the song, besides what I wrote in post #54. There are no other words from me on the subject anywhere else. 

Edited by char713
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You have continually conflated others' posts with what I have written, even going so far as falsely stating that I said thus-and-such, then refusing to admit you were wrong. So I suppose further conversation with you on this point is doomed.

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Though I'm not sure what's wrong with baby machines, another name for which is "mothers". If we believe, as I surely do, that one way a woman fills the measure of her creation is through bearing and nurturing children, then we should be the first to celebrate and exalt that role -- perhaps even at the risk of bruising the feelings of those who don't share that blessing. To do otherwise is like refusing to have the Primary children sing "I'm So Glad When Daddy Comes Home" for fear of hurting the feelings of those children whose father is absent.

 

It's post #14 on this thread. Check the other 13 posts. No one else had mentioned the song before you. I have told you where to find the only places that I have spoken on the matter. My initial sharing about my infertility was in post #12. Its not a matter of conflation at all. 

Edited by char713
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Missions are About serving the Lord. Getting the work done how we can. It's not about who "deserves" to go, or who is "refined" the most. The Lord seeks worthy and capable official missionaries and everyone to do their part.

 

*clap clap clap*

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It's post #14 on this thread. Check the other 13 posts. No one else had mentioned the song before you. I have told you where to find the only places that I have spoken on the matter. My initial sharing about my infertility was in post #12. Its not a matter of conflation at all. 

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about at this point.

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Okay, I will make it clearer. 

 

I said:

 

 

In general, I'm sure you're right. I've just been spoiled I guess, having engaged with so many others outside of the church for so long on the matter, and for the most part having uplifting experiences there. I foolishly assumed that a forum of church members would be an even more safe place, since we are instructed so often to be charitable and Christlike. My mistake. 

 

Meaning I should never have brought up the subject at all here since too many people are either unable or unwilling to avoid chastising or instructing me on the subject, and some even do so unkindly. The subject was first brought up on post #12, where I first mentioned my own infertility.

 

Then you said: 

 

Your sharing was in the context of criticizing others for daring to suggest that e.g. singing "I'm So Glad When Daddy Comes Home" is acceptable. Surely you cannot have thought that those you were criticizing with your example should therefore just shut up and accept whatever you say uncritically, because hey, it's a personal example.

 

I took this to mean that you were assuming (incorrectly) that I brought up my infertility in the first place in order to criticize others. And that because I did so, there is very little I can do to defend myself since in your mind, I was the one who started out being rude on purpose.

 

So I responded:

 

 

Try again. It was at least a full page of comments earlier than that. 

 

Edit: My original sharing was on post #12. The ones you are referring to are on #49 and #54. And those responses were following several from a few other people, who were following the thread that YOU started the first time you mentioned the Primary song.

 

Edit again: I just went through every one of my posts on this thread. Post 49 I used the words "say or sing" and that was the ONLY other reference to your original point about the song, besides what I wrote in post #54. There are no other words from me on the subject anywhere else. 

 

Meaning that if you might take a moment to go back to those posts, you will see clearly that I was neither the original author of the "primary hymn as a possible means of emotional persecution" idea, nor even the second person to comment on that particular example. I did not even reference that specific example until two or three pages later, on post #49. So again, I did not create this situation - which it seems now that you think I did - in which I first caused offense and then complained that others took notice. 

 

And finally, you accused me of lying and refusing to take any kind of responsibility for anything I have said:

 

You have continually conflated others' posts with what I have written, even going so far as falsely stating that I said thus-and-such, then refusing to admit you were wrong. So I suppose further conversation with you on this point is doomed.

 

So again, I have not confused anyone else's points with yours. If there is the sense that I may have done so, though it cannot actually be supported with any quotes from me.. perhaps it is because you express the very similar sentiments only with less inflammatory diction. It is you who have mistaken other people's words for mine, if you think I ever said anything pointedly hurtful or fabricated. I did say that something you said was condescending and insensitive. And I have hardly avoided taking responsiblity for that, as I have attempted to articulate my reasoning on a few occassions since. 

 

Correction: I re-read my posts again and it turns out I was the second person to comment on the primary song thing, and that was in post 34. Still didn't say anything attacking anyone there either, though. 

Edited by char713
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