A couple of questions you've probably heard a million times...

[Catlick]

Hi there! I just introduced myself in the Intro forum as a lifelong Catholic who is investigating the LDS church after meeting some great LDS friends over the years as well as many of their doctrines really resonating with me. However, I'm also a rational person and like to know that if I throw my lot in with a certain faith tradition, that that faith is true. So here goes...

 

First of all, where does the Word of Wisdom come from? In the Catholic church, there are a lot of rules that come from "tradition," rather than Biblical-based mandates (this is where we base our reverence for the saints, Mary, praying the rosary, etc). Is it a similar case in the LDS church, or is the WoW from Biblical scripture? To be honest, I have a hard time imagining giving up my morning coffee and the occasional wine tasting trip with friends if I don't know that there is a divine purpose.

 

Secondly, I'm stuck on the Book of Abraham. As it has been disproved by Egyptologists, is it considered an essential belief? What is the LDS church's official stance on that issue? I don't know if I think that it totally disproves everything Joseph claimed to translate, as he was a human being. He may have gotten ahead of himself and tried translating something that wasn't divinely required of him to translate (unlike the BoM). Maybe he tried to do it on his own to see if he still had "the power" and that is just proof of his ultimate humanity. Or that this was actually satan's attempt to throw a wrench into things and discredit the faith for future believers, who knows?

 

Despite all of these things (and there are more doctrinal things that make me wonder), I do believe strongly in the scripture quote of "Ye shall know them by their fruits," and I do believe that the Mormons that I have met or overheard are absolutely living lives inspired by the Holy Spirit and in my opinion, they're doing a better job of it than other Christian denominations. But that's just my opinion!

[Just_A_Guy]

Hi Catlick -

 

The "Word of Wisdom" derives from a revelation/inspiration which was given to Joseph Smith, whom we believe to have been a prophet.  Smith's account of that revelation was later added to the LDS canon of scripture as section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants (a collection of similar accounts of revelations given mostly to Smith, as well as a couple of his successors).  The Word of Wisdom has been further interpreted and applied by later LDS leaders (whom we again accept as prophets); and while that "prophetic midrash" hasn't been formally added to the LDS canon of scripture it is still considered binding on the Church membership in the sense that a noncomplying church member may be denied access to certain Church sacraments.

 

The Doctrine and Covenants is given equal weight with the Bible (or the Book of Mormon, for that matter), so as Mormons we're not terribly concerned with the fact that the Word of Wisdom doesn't have an exact mirror anywhere in the Bible.  (Kosher laws were somewhat analogous, of course, but ultimately not the same thing.)

 

The Church's historical department recently released an essay on the Book of Abraham, which you can read online here.  Personally:  I believe the Book of Abraham is the restoration of the text of a lost book written by Abraham himself; and I accept it as scripture.  I am not convinced, however, that it is a literal translation of the papyri Joseph Smith actually had available to him; and I am open to the idea that even Joseph Smith himself didn't quite understand the relationship between the papyrus he was working with versus the text he was producing.  But that's just me--I think a lot of forum members would disagree with my take on things.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Catlick]

Thanks, Just_a_Guy, that is very helpful! I'm pondering all of this for the first time, I appreciate your patience! ;p

I also used to hear that soda was a no-no, but I do see Mormon friends drinking Coke or Pepsi sometimes. Is that acceptable? It seems to me that the caffeine would make it prohibited?

[Jane_Doe]

Thanks, Just_a_Guy, that is very helpful! I'm pondering all of this for the first time, I appreciate your patience! ;p

I also used to hear that soda was a no-no, but I do see Mormon friends drinking Coke or Pepsi sometimes. Is that acceptable? It seems to me that the caffeine would make it prohibited?

 

Soda is officially ok.   

 

Some Mormons do avoid it (citing the caffeine is not good for you) but that is their choice and not doctrine mandated.

[Catlick]

Ok, good to know, Jane_Doe! I personally never drink soda, as I think its even worse for us than coffee or tea (I don't actually think either of those are bad for you, but I think the dependence is what gets in the way of life sometimes).

[Vort]

Secondly, I'm stuck on the Book of Abraham. As it has been disproved by Egyptologists, is it considered an essential belief?

The bolded part above is incorrect. What ever gave you that idea?

[Catlick]

Vort, I'm just going by several sources that quoted modern Egyptologists that identified the papyrus found in 1966 as a common funerary document, having nothing to do with Abraham or his time. From lds.org: "None of the characters on the papyrus fragments mentioned Abraham’s name or any of the events recorded in the book of Abraham. Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham"

 

I am in academia and I do believe an Egyptologist when he or she looks at a document and says "Nope, that's not what it says. This is what it says." So I'm stuck on this one. I really, really want to believe that everything Joseph translated was a true translation, but the papyri just don't stand up to the scholarship. Today, we understand ancient Egyptian, while no one did in Joseph's time.

[estradling75]

On the WoW I would like to point out soda and caffeine (and other things) are not restricted by the Wow...  But it is not the same as saying that they are good.  They are simply in the area were its up to our own judgement.

 

As for the Book of Abraham...  Many people when they think of translation they think of scholarly study of old documents. So they try to discredit him like they would discredit a scholar...  But  Joseph Smith's translation was "By the Gift and power of God" so such methods don't get as much traction among the faithful and the dis-creditors would like.

 

Some of the methods Jospeh Smith used.... 

 

Being showed (urim and thummim and his Seer Stone during the translation of the Book of Mormon)

 

Being inspired by the scripture (His work on the Bible)

 

Being inspired by the events around him (The D&C.. the Word of Wisdom is a prime example)

 

For the Book of Abraham Joseph Smith bought alot of scrolls of Egyptian Origin...  Of all those scrolls and documents we have only some of them now.  (Others burned in the Chicago Fire)  Examining what we have now we don't appear to have Abraham's story.  But even if we did, given how Joseph Smith "Translated" is not really a problem, given his proven ability (to believers) to bring forth the Word of God as he is inspired to do so.  

[Catlick]

Interesting, estradling75. Thanks for reframing the Book of Abraham issue. And again, I come back to the "ye shall know them by their fruits," and feel that these are small things compared to the greater picture of what our Heavenly Father wants from us.

[Jane_Doe]

 

I am in academia... 

 

Me too!  (Botany/ecology).

[Vort]

Vort, I'm just going by several sources that quoted modern Egyptologists that identified the papyrus found in 1966 as a common funerary document, having nothing to do with Abraham or his time. From lds.org: "None of the characters on the papyrus fragments mentioned Abraham’s name or any of the events recorded in the book of Abraham. Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham"

 

I am in academia and I do believe an Egyptologist when he or she looks at a document and says "Nope, that's not what it says. This is what it says." So I'm stuck on this one. I really, really want to believe that everything Joseph translated was a true translation, but the papyri just don't stand up to the scholarship. Today, we understand ancient Egyptian, while no one did in Joseph's time.

Who says the surviving fragments are what Joseph translated?

[Catlick]

Jane_Doe, you too huh? :) I started in the Humanities department and now I'm a librarian. I took classes in Egyptology/hieroglyphics and museum studies/archives. LOVE all of it!

[Catlick]

Vort, good point! I'll have to look into that. I thought it was generally accepted that the fragments found were from Joseph's collection and were identified as being the Book of Abraham originals.

[Jane_Doe]

Jane_Doe, you too huh? :) I started in the Humanities department and now I'm a librarian. I took classes in Egyptology/hieroglyphics and museum studies/archives. LOVE all of it!

 

Ah! One of my good friends in an anthropologist.  I myself have a huge soft spot for pre-1500 history, but felt it was something I couldn't get a job it.  

[Traveler]

Vort, I'm just going by several sources that quoted modern Egyptologists that identified the papyrus found in 1966 as a common funerary document, having nothing to do with Abraham or his time. From lds.org: "None of the characters on the papyrus fragments mentioned Abraham’s name or any of the events recorded in the book of Abraham. Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham"

 

I am in academia and I do believe an Egyptologist when he or she looks at a document and says "Nope, that's not what it says. This is what it says." So I'm stuck on this one. I really, really want to believe that everything Joseph translated was a true translation, but the papyri just don't stand up to the scholarship. Today, we understand ancient Egyptian, while no one did in Joseph's time.

 

There is more to the Book of Abraham that what seem to be getting through to you.  The papyrus has been changed from common funerary documents to what is called the Book of Breathings.  In essence this has to do with more than a Book of the Dead and is related to live beyond the grave.  That modern Egyptologists have validated to connection to Abraham does not by any means that there is none - just that at present it does not exist in ample amount to provide conclusive proof.

 

But I would offer another tact to this investigation.  I would point out that the book of Abraham demonstrates an ancient Egyptian colophon that not only was not known at the time of Joseph Smith but was not discovered until after 100 years later.  This ancient colophon method was only known and used in Ancient Egypt by a little known society known as the Pathagoreans.  Most of what we know of this ancient mathematical cult is disclosed by a Greek slave that took their name as his own and published some of their secrets - the most famous of which is the Pythagorean thorium.

 

Part of the problem is that few if any modern Egyptologists have the mathematical expertise to recognize the sophisticated mathematics in operation employed as early as 2,200 BC that calculated pi with more accuracy than was reached in modern times only in the last century.  Add to that the harmonic triad and the ratio of light frequencies that were not duplicated in our time until the invention of the laser. 

 

Another part of the problem is that there are many anti to revelation in our time and seek to disprove any divine revelation in much the same manner employed when Jesus taught among mankind in mortality.  I suggest you read the Book of Abraham and also the ancient Book of Enoch.  What you will find is that there were things known anciently that were lost and even opposed my traditional religious thinkers that are now firmly established by science.  Yet we are learning were known anciently.

[Catlick]

Traveler, you're blowing my mind!!! Such interesting stuff, and so much to delve into. I will definitely be reading both the books of Abraham and Enoch, thanks for that advice. There reallly is so much that we don't understand and that has it's basis in spiritual realities that would likely blow most peoples' socks off. Good stuff, this.

[Jane_Doe]

There reallly is so much that we don't understand and that has it's basis in spiritual realities that would likely blow most peoples' socks off. Good stuff, this.

 Well said!

[sxfritz]

You'll find some deep thinkers here and you find people like me that take a big picture approach and prefer one line answers. I'm in agreement with the statements thus far and only wanted to say how I appreciate your asking and keeping a dialog. 

Topics like WoW can create a great stir and cause pages and pages of debate. You'll find some threads that aren't too old. I hope this doesn't go there.  :)

[Vort]

Vort, good point! I'll have to look into that. I thought it was generally accepted that the fragments found were from Joseph's collection and were identified as being the Book of Abraham originals.

Many of Joseph Smith's papyri were destroyed in the Great Chicago Fire. We really don't know for sure which papyri were used, though people have made educated guesses based on descriptions.

 

What Joseph Smith called "translation" apparently bore little resemblance to what we call "translation". Joseph consulted the Holy Ghost, the interpreters (Urim and Thummim), and apparently his own seerstone when "translating" the Book of Mormon. He appears not to have made an extensive study of the Demotic (or similar reformed Egyptian) in which the plates were written. The details of the translation process were never minutely recorded, and God has not seen fit to tell us precisely what is meant by the term "translation", except for the general idea that it takes things recorded in one language and renders them in another. The process is unknown.

[Vort]

Most of what we know of this ancient mathematical cult is disclosed by a Greek slave that took their name as his own and published some of their secrets - the most famous of which is the Pythagorean thorium.

Element 90 of Archimedes' Molten Saltum Reactor, and three before Platonium.

[Maureen]

Who says the surviving fragments are what Joseph translated?

 

https://archive.org/stream/improvementera7101unse#page/n13/mode/2up

 

M.

[Maureen]

Many of Joseph Smith's papyri were destroyed in the Great Chicago Fire....

 

How much is many? Do you have a source that says what and how much was destroyed?

 

M.

[Vort]

How much is many? Do you have a source that says what and how much was destroyed?

I am a believer with a sacred testimony, not an Egyptologist. Nevertheless, I have access to a powerful tool that provides me information literally at my fingertips. It's called Google.

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng

 

After the Latter-day Saints left Nauvoo, the Egyptian artifacts remained behind. Joseph Smith’s family sold the papyri and the mummies in 1856. The papyri were divided up and sold to various parties; historians believe that most were destroyed in the Great Chicago Fire of 1871. Ten papyrus fragments once in Joseph Smith’s possession ended up in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. In 1967, the museum transferred these fragments to the Church, which subsequently published them in the Church’s magazine, the Improvement Era.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham

 

After Joseph Smith's death, the Egyptian artifacts were in the possession of his mother, Lucy Mack Smith, until her death on May 14, 1856. Smith's widow, Emma Hale Smith Bidamon, her second husband Lewis C. Bidamon, and her son Joseph Smith III, sold "four Egyptian mummies with the records with them" to Abel Combs on May 26, 1856. Ten weeks later, two of the mummies and some of the papyri were being displayed in St. Louis by Edward Wyman. The St. Louis Museum was closed in July 1863 and its collection moved to the Chicago Museum, which was sold to Joseph H. Wood in 1864. The renamed Wood's Museum was destroyed in the Great Chicago Fire of 1871.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Papyri

 

Egyptologist John A. Wilson stated that the recovered fragments indicate the existence of at least six to eight separate documents. Another scholar estimated that the fragments constitute roughly one-third of Joseph Smith's original collection of papyri.

[Jane_Doe]

Guys, do we really have to do this rabbit trail??????????

 

I vote stick to the OP.

[The Folk Prophet]

I am not convinced, however, that it is a literal translation of the papyri Joseph Smith actually had available to him; and I am open to the idea that even Joseph Smith himself didn't quite understand the relationship between the papyrus he was working with versus the text he was producing.  But that's just me--I think a lot of forum members would disagree with my take on things.

 

For example....me. I disagree with this take on things. Well...to me more precise, I think it strange to draw conclusions of this sort when we do not have the evidence to support it.

 

If and when the papyri re-appear (which is an impossibility as far was we understand it per the Chicago fire), and then Egyptologists proclaim nothing therein mentions Abraham, then sure, we can still work around that from a faith perspective and maintain that the end result was inspired regardless of the source material. But without any evidence whatsoever that we actually have the source material, why should we feel compelled to back the, "Joseph must have been a doofus," type thinking?

 

Joseph said it was a literal translation. Until there's solid evidence indicating that he misunderstood something, I see no good reason to presume otherwise.