"Mormons free to back gay marriage on social media, LDS Apostle reiterates"

[JayGlad]

I choose not to judge anyone, but instead just try and love everyone.

 

Ah, but you see, that in and of itself is a judgment. Not only that, but you are strongly implying that those who judge a righteous judgment are incapable of loving. You're also implying that judging and loving are exclusive of each other. How judgmental is that!?

[Suzie]

Ah, but you see, that in and of itself is a judgment. Not only that, but you are strongly implying that those who judge a righteous judgment are incapable of loving. You're also implying that judging and loving are exclusive of each other. How judgmental is that!?

 

 

The problem with righteous judgment is that sometimes the label is used as an excuse to judge people unrighteously. Many years ago, one of the Apostles gave a great talk about what implies righteous judgment and he gave a step by step guide.

 

1. We should refrain from telling people they have no hope (you will burn in hell!) or quite the opposite that they are assured of their exaltation.

 

2. We should ensure our judgment is guided by the Holy Spirit and not by self-interest.

 

3. Perhaps, one of the most important points is that it must be within our stewardship. We should not presume or exercise it outside our own responsibilities.

 

4. Even if all the first three points are respected and followed, we should refrain from judging until we have all the facts.

 

Now, how many of us judge a brother or a sister and we claim we are judging them righteously just because we saw them doing something wrong? That's not righteous judgement even if the person was doing something wrong. If it is not within our stewardship to judge, if we are not guided by the Holy Spirit, if we do not have adequate facts... we are just passing judgment and we are asked to refrain from doing it.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Suzie

[JayGlad]

Suzie, I agree with you, but at the same time I have to say, "It depends on so many things."

 

Do some misuse the term "righteous judgment"? Certainly! I would suggest that those who do, obviously, neither understand nor correctly apply it. Having said that, make no mistake that we--members of the Church of Jesus Christ--have been given a charge to learn how to judge righteously. The unfortunate truth is that those who have yet learned how, condemn the those who have.

 

How ironic!

[The Folk Prophet]

I generally find that the most judgmental people I interact with are those who judge others for judging -- speaking of ironic.

[Suzie]

Jay; but in the end as the apostle mentioned if it is not within our stewardship we are supposed to refrain from judgement. It seems like we struggle with this concept.

[JayGlad]

I generally find that the most judgmental people I interact with are those who judge others for judging -- speaking of ironic.

 

Amen!

[JayGlad]

Jay; but in the end as the apostle mentioned if it is not within our stewardship we are supposed to refrain from judgement. It seems like we struggle with this concept.

 

I never suggested otherwise, did I?

[Suzie]

Never said you did.

[JayGlad]

It seems as though you had implied it. Sorry.

[The Folk Prophet]

It opens the question though as to what our stewardship is and how "judging" applies thereto.

[skalenfehl]

Ah, but you see, that in and of itself is a judgment. Not only that, but you are strongly implying that those who judge a righteous judgment are incapable of loving. You're also implying that judging and loving are exclusive of each other. How judgmental is that!?

 

But who can judge righteously? One must be righteous to judge righteously. I will be the first to tell you that I am a sinner and a fool, which is why I would rather not judge. I apologize for making that implication. It doesn't resonate with me. I cannot comprehend how someone who is judging righteously is incapable of loving. In my mind only Jesus Christ can judge righteously and He is capable of perfect love, being filled with charity. As for whether or not judging and loving are exclusive, I don't know. I suppose maybe I did make that judgment. But can one love unconditionally while judging? My wife just said yes. To me this means I can form an opinion about someone and love them anyway. But I contend that if I formed an opinion of them (they stink, they're smart, whatever) I'm not really loving them unconditionally. My head hurts.

[Suzie]

It seems as though you had implied it. Sorry.

 

 

No, don't be sorry. :) The reason I overemphasize the point was because you said you agree "but it depends on so many things" which I agree with you, so I wanted to highlight the point because regardless of the other factors involved, if it is not within our stewardship (I believe to be the most important point) and we have all the adequate facts, and we are guided by the Holy Spirit, etc etc etc we are just merely passing judgment and not righteous judgment.

 

And now I feel like I just repeated myself again, sorry :)

[Suzie]

But who can judge righteously? One must be righteous to judge righteously. I will be the first to tell you that I am a sinner and a fool, which is why I would rather not judge. I apologize for making that implication. It doesn't resonate with me. I cannot comprehend how someone who is judging righteously is incapable of loving. In my mind only Jesus Christ can judge righteously and He is capable of perfect love, being filled with charity. As for whether or not judging and loving are exclusive, I don't know. I suppose maybe I did make that judgment. But can one love unconditionally while judging? My wife just said yes. To me this means I can form an opinion about someone and love them anyway. But I contend that if I formed an opinion of them (they stink, they're smart, whatever) I'm not really loving them unconditionally. My head hurts.

 

Good Bishops and Church leaders all over the world do that. They show great love, concern, empathy and care for the people they have to judge. I agree that Jesus Christ is the only person who can love perfectly but I also believe it is possible for someone in authority to judge righteously and yet, show great love.

[The Folk Prophet]

But who can judge righteously? One must be righteous to judge righteously. I will be the first to tell you that I am a sinner and a fool, which is why I would rather not judge. I apologize for making that implication. It doesn't resonate with me. I cannot comprehend how someone who is judging righteously is incapable of loving. In my mind only Jesus Christ can judge righteously and He is capable of perfect love, being filled with charity. As for whether or not judging and loving are exclusive, I don't know. I suppose maybe I did make that judgment. But can one love unconditionally while judging? My wife just said yes. To me this means I can form an opinion about someone and love them anyway. But I contend that if I formed an opinion of them (they stink, they're smart, whatever) I'm not really loving them unconditionally. My head hurts.

 

You don't think you can have an opinion of someone that they're smart and still love them unconditionally?

[skalenfehl]

I'm still not convinced any man can judge righteously. Alma feared judging wrongly so he went to the Lord and got an answer. Now I wonder if any man can love perfectly. 

[skalenfehl]

You don't think you can have an opinion of someone that they're smart and still love them unconditionally?

 

I wrote that hastily. But if you can judge someone is smart, that means you can judge someone to be stupid. And we're back in judging mode.

[The Folk Prophet]

So back to this "within our stewardship" point -- who defines that? I mean the church hierarchy has a clear "stewardship" line, and we don't have the right to, say, receive revelation for the ward if we aren't the bishop, for example.

 

But ultimately, a stewardship is a responsibility given to man to watch over...something that ultimately belongs to God. So is not the responsibility given to us all to watch over our fellow man, to mourn with them, to serve them, and to lead them back to God? Is not our neighbor well within each of our stewardships?

[The Folk Prophet]

I wrote that hastily. But if you can judge someone is smart, that means you can judge someone to be stupid. And we're back in judging mode.

 

I judge many beings to be stupid. Doesn't mean I don't love them unconditionally. My Golden Retriever comes to mind. Stupid? Yes. Loved. Oh my goodness yes!

[The Folk Prophet]

I'm still not convinced any man can judge righteously.

 

I was thinking on this just a bit, and I have to say, I think there's a problem with it. Is not the entire point of coming to earth to test us and see if we will judge righteously? Is not the choice between good and evil -- a.k.a. judging, the key point of the fall?

 

I know that's a bit different sort of judgement than an accusatory sort of thing. But it applies, does it not? Which people we'll be friends with. Who we will marry? (What weddings we'll attend?) How and when we interact with others? Etc., etc. Are not these all demanding our choice and our judgement, and part of the test of life? Are we not left, in many ways, to determine these things on our own, based on our own good wills and intents, based on our own desires to serve God and to do His will?

 

Are we to be directed in everything? (Obviously, per scripture, the answer is no). Well then, we must judge.

Edited March 23, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[JayGlad]

I'm still not convinced any man can judge righteously.

 

WOW! I would urge you to reconsider what you just wrote. Then, I would strongly encourage you to read and ponder the following:

 

Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment. For with what judgment ye shall judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (JST Matthew 7:2-3)

 

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (John 7:24)

 

Judge not according to your traditions, but judge righteous judgment. (JST John 7:24)

 

Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again. (Alma 41:14)

 

And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit. (D&C11:12)

 

That I may proceed to bring to pass my act, my strange act, and perform my work, my strange work, that men may discern between the righteous and the wicked, saith your God. (D&C 101:95)

 

Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy. (Proverbs 31:9)

 

Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil. For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night. For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged. Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ. (Moroni 7:14-19)

 

For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also. (Moroni 7:5; see Moroni 7:6-13)

 

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Matthew 16:27)

 

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (James 2:17-18)

 

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Revelation 20:12)

 

And they shall teach my people [the difference] between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; [and] they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths. (Ezekiel 44:23-24)

 

President Joseph F. Smith taught that there are some prerequisites to enjoying such inspiration (righteous judgment): “The only safe way for us to do, as individuals, is to live so humbly, so righteously and so faithfully before God that we may possess his Spirit to that extent that we shall be able to judge righteously, and discern between truth and error.” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 45)

 

It is vividly clear from the scriptures that the Lord has commanded us to learn how to judge as He judges--in righteousness! He has commanded us to be perfect, even as He is. It is stunning to me that anyone here would suggest that no man can be righteous or can judge righteously is an indication of a misunderstanding and/or misinterpreting of our responsibility as a covenant people as handed down by our Savior and King. If we elect to shun our responsibilities in our efforts to become like Him, then we will never become like Him!

 

If what you say were true, then what of the Gifts of the Spirit? What of the Spirit of Discernment, which is required when judging righteously? Consider the following:

 

*Discernment, Gift of

 

The gift of discernment consists of the spiritual quality or skill of being able to see or understand, especially that which is hidden or obscure. This ability is shared in a general way by all of God's children, but “discerning of spirits” is one of the gifts of the spirit that comes, under certain circumstances, specially from God (1 Cor. 12:10; D&C 46:23). The fuller gift of discerning in all spiritual matters—to know whether their occurrence is of God or not—is given by the Lord to “such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church” (D&C 46:27). To possess this gift is to receive divinely revealed understanding of opposing spirits—the spirit of God and the spirit of the devil. Persons possessing such a gift also correctly perceive the right course of action (D&C 63:41).

 

Not only can the power of discernment distinguish good from evil (Moro. 7:12-18), the righteous from the wicked (D&C 101:95), and false spirits from divine (D&C 46:23), but its more sensitive operation can also make known even “the thoughts and intents of the heart” of other persons (Heb. 4:12; D&C 33:1). “The gift of discernment [embodies] the power to discriminate between right and wrong [and] arises largely out of an acute sensitivity to spiritual impressionsto detect hidden evil, and more importantly to find the good that may be concealed. The highest type of discernment uncovers [in others] their better natures, the good inherent within them” (Richards, p. 371).

 

Every Latter-day Saint has spiritual leaders who, by virtue of their callings, are entitled to the gift of discernment to enable them to lead and counsel correctly. “The gift of discernment is essential to the leadership of the Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]. I never ordain a bishop or set apart a president of a stake without invoking upon him this divine blessing, that he may read the lives and hearts of his people and call forth the best within them. The gift and power of discernment [are] essential equipment for every son and daughter of God. The true gift of discernment is often premonitory. A sense of danger should be heeded to be of value” (Richards, p. 371).

 

Bibliography

Richards, Stephen L. "The Gifts of the Spirit." IE 53 [May 1950]:371.

Smith, Joseph Fielding, ed. TPJS, pp. 202-215. Salt Lake City, 1938.

Leon R. Hartshorn (from Encyclopedia of Mormonism, ed., Daniel H. Ludlow)

Edited March 24, 2015 by JayGlad

[skalenfehl]

I get that part, TFP. Eve made a judgment call about eating the fruit. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking specifically about judging someone. As Christ said, what judgment we judge, we will likewise be judged. What measure we mete, we will be likewise measured. 

 

 

 

3 Nephi 14:12 Therefore, all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them, for this is the law and the prophets.

 

Do not the greatest commandments apply? Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself? If we are too busy loving them, serving them, ministering to them, is there room for judging them? I suppose you can judge if they stand in need of something, but that's not what I'm talking about, although, if you are meting out a measure, so will God mete out the same to you. If I refuse the beggar, is it because I don't love him? And if I do not love the least of my fellow brothers, do I not love God?

 

 

 

3 Nephi 15:9 Behold, I am the law, and the light. Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life.

 

So is the Golden Rule about love? 

 

 

 

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Edited March 23, 2015 by skalenfehl

[JayGlad]

Are we to be directed in everything? (Obviously, per scripture, the answer is no). Well then, we must judge.

 

Indeed and amen!

[JayGlad]

So is the Golden Rule about love? 

 

Can't you see you are still insisting that love and righteous judgment are exclusive? They are not! They are so intertwined that they cannot be separated when done by the Spirit.

 

You and others here are of the opinion that judging is limited to seeing only the bad in people and things. Nothing could be further from the truth! That tells me you do not fully understanding the eternal concept of judging.

Edited March 24, 2015 by JayGlad

[skalenfehl]

Excellent scriptures, JayGlad. Discernment is key. Without discernment, how can we exercise all that righteous judgment we're supposed to judge? To me, righteous means just. How can we be just? Can we be justified if we are not sanctified? 

 

 

 

• 3 Nephi 8:1 And now it came to pass that according to our record, and we know our record to be true, for behold, it was a just man who did keep the record—for he truly did many miracles in the name of Jesus; and there was not any man who could do a miracle in the name of Jesus save he were cleansed every whit from his iniquity—

 

This is more what I'm talking about:

 

 

Mosiah 26:9 And it came to pass that Alma did not know concerning them; but there were many witnesses against them; yea, the people stood and testified of their iniquity in abundance.

 10 Now there had not any such thing happened before in the church; therefore Alma was troubled in his spirit, and he caused that they should be brought before the king.

 11 And he said unto the king: Behold, here are many whom we have brought before thee, who are accused of their brethren; yea, and they have been taken in divers iniquities. And they do not repent of their iniquities; therefore we have brought them before thee, that thou mayest judge them according to their crimes.

 12 But king Mosiah said unto Alma: Behold, I judge them not; therefore I deliver them into thy hands to be judged.

 13 And now the spirit of Alma was again troubled; and he went and inquired of the Lord what he should do concerning this matter, for he feared that he should do wrong in the sight of God.

 14 And it came to pass that after he had poured out his whole soul to God, the voice of the Lord came to him, saying...

 

[Suzie]

A few excerpts from the talk I was mentioned before by Elder Dallin H. Oaks. He makes the distinction between final and intermediate judgment:

 

Thus, we must refrain from making final judgments on people because we lack the knowledge and the wisdom to do so. We would even apply the wrong standards. The world’s way is to judge competitively between winners and losers. The Lord’s way of final judgment will be to apply His perfect knowledge of the law a person has received and to judge on the basis of that person’s circumstances, motives, and actions throughout his or her entire life (see Luke 12:47–48; John 15:22; 2 Ne. 9:25).

 

We must, of course, make judgments every day in the exercise of our moral agency, but we must be careful that our judgments of people are intermediate and not final. Thus, our Savior’s teachings contain many commandments we cannot keep without making intermediate judgments of people: “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine” (Matt. 7:6); “Beware of false prophets. … Ye shall know them by their fruits” (Matt. 7:15–16); and “Go ye out from among the wicked” (D&C 38:42).

 

We all make judgments in choosing our friends, in choosing how we will spend our time and our money, and, of course, in choosing an eternal companion. Some of these intermediate judgments are surely among those the Savior referenced when He taught that “the weightier matters of the law” include judgment (Matt. 23:23).

 

The scriptures not only command or contemplate that we will make intermediate judgments but also give us some guidance—some governing principles—on how to do so.

Righteous Intermediate Judgment

The most fundamental principle is contained in the Savior’s commandment that we “judge not unrighteously, … but judge righteous judgment” (JST, Matt. 7:1–2, footnote a; see also John 7:24; Alma 41:14). Let us consider some principles or ingredients that lead to a “righteous judgment.”

 

First, a righteous judgment must, by definition, be intermediate. It will refrain from declaring that a person has been assured of exaltation or from dismissing a person as being irrevocably bound for hellfire. It will refrain from declaring that a person has forfeited all opportunity for exaltation or even all opportunity for a useful role in the work of the Lord. The gospel is a gospel of hope, and none of us is authorized to deny the power of the Atonement to bring about a cleansing of individual sins, forgiveness, and a reformation of life on appropriate conditions.

 

Second, a righteous judgment will be guided by the Spirit of the Lord, not by anger, revenge, jealousy, or self-interest. The Book of Mormon teaches: “For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain … as the daylight is from the dark night.

 

“For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil” (Moro. 7:15–16).

The Savior taught that one of the missions of the Comforter He would send would be to assist in the judgment of the world by guiding the faithful “into all truth” (John 16:13; see also John 16:8, 11).

 

Third, to be righteous, an intermediate judgment must be within our stewardship. We should not presume to exercise and act upon judgments that are outside our personal responsibilities. Some time ago I attended an adult Sunday School class in a small town in Utah. The subject was the sacrament, and the class was being taught by the bishop. During class discussion a member asked, “What if you see an unworthy person partaking of the sacrament? What do you do?” The bishop answered, “You do nothing. I may need to do something.” That wise answer illustrates my point about stewardship in judging.

 

Fourth, we should, if possible, refrain from judging until we have adequate knowledge of the facts. In an essay titled “Sitting in the Seat of Judgment,” the great essayist William George Jordan reminded us that character cannot be judged as dress goods—by viewing a sample yard to represent a whole bolt of cloth (see The Crown of Individuality [1909], 101–5).

 

A fifth principle of a righteous intermediate judgment is that whenever possible we will refrain from judging people and only judge situations. This is essential whenever we attempt to act upon different standards than others with whom we must associate—at home, at work, or in the community. We can set and act upon high standards for ourselves or our homes without condemning those who do otherwise.

 

Sixth, forgiveness is a companion principle to the commandment that in final judgments we judge not and in intermediate judgments we judge righteously.

 

Seventh, a final ingredient or principle of a righteous judgment is that it will apply righteous standards.

 

In one of the monthly General Authority fast and testimony meetings, I heard President James E. Faust say, “The older I get, the less judgmental I become.” That wise observation gives us a standard to live by in the matter of judgments. We should refrain from anything that seems to be a final judgment of any person, manifesting our determination to leave final judgments to the Lord, who alone has the capacity to judge.

 

In the intermediate judgments we must make, we should take care to judge righteously. We should seek the guidance of the Spirit in our decisions. We should limit our judgments to our own stewardships. Whenever possible we should refrain from judging people until we have an adequate knowledge of the facts. So far as possible, we should judge circumstances rather than people. In all our judgments we should apply righteous standards. And, in all of this we must remember the command to forgive.

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/08/judge-not-and-judging?lang=eng