"Mormons free to back gay marriage on social media, LDS Apostle reiterates"


Guest LiterateParakeet
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Can't you see you are still insisting that love and righteous judgment are exclusive? They are not! They are so intertwined that they cannot be separated when done by the Spirit.

 

You and others here are of the opinion that judging is limited to seeing only the bad in people and things. Nothing could be further from the truth! That tells me you do not fully understanding the eternal concept of judging.

 

But that's just it. You qualified love and righteous judgment by saying it cannot be separated when done by the Spirit. How often is it done by the Spirit? You are right. I still don't understand. I am imperfect. I am a fool. I am a sinner. I acknowledge that only God can judge righteously. Only God can love perfectly. Jay, if you can judge righteously, I admire you. One day, I hope I can too.

Edited by skalenfehl
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But that's just it. You qualified love and righteous judgment by saying it cannot be separated when done by the Spirit. How often is it done by the Spirit. You are right. I am imperfect. I am a fool. I am a sinner. I acknowledge that only God can judge righteously. Only God can love perfectly. Jay, it's nice to know that you can judge righteously. One day, I hope I can too.

 

Please, DO NOT put words in my mouth! That is most unbecoming.

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Please, DO NOT put words in my mouth! That is most unbecoming.

 

Are you judging? This is what I mean. I did not think I was putting words in your mouth. I didn't think I was. I am trying to understand your perspective. btw, I edited my post and it went through after your reply. Perhaps it changes how I may have put words in your mouth. 

Edited by skalenfehl
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Are you judging? This is what I mean. I did not think I was putting words in your mouth. I didn't think I was. I am trying to understand your perspective. btw, I edited my post and it went through after your reply. Perhaps it changes how I may have put words in your mouth. 

 

Yes, I was. You, me, Suzie, everyone of us make judgments practically every minute of the day. All of us here are making judgments as we move through this thread.

 

You said, "You are right. I am imperfect. I am a fool. I am a sinner." I never said any of those things! I didn't think any of those things. I do think you are mistaken, but that is based solely on what you have written, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Therefore, based on what you have said, I "judge" that you do not believe that men can judge righteously, even though Jesus has commanded us to do so.

Edited by JayGlad
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Yes, I was. You, me, Suzie, everyone of us make judgments practically every minute of the day. All of us here are making judgments as we move through this thread.

 

You said, "You are right. I am imperfect. I am a fool. I am a sinner." I never said any of those things! I didn't think any of those things. I do think you are mistaken, but that is based solely on what you have written, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Therefore, based on what you have said, I "judge" that you do not believe that men can judge righteously, even though Jesus has commanded us to do so.

 

Then I edited my post, because I realized what I said, but it went through after you replied, thus the confusion. Please read what I edited and meant to say:

 

 

 

But that's just it. You qualified love and righteous judgment by saying it cannot be separated when done by the Spirit. How often is it done by the Spirit? You are right. I still don't understand. I am imperfect. I am a fool. I am a sinner. I acknowledge that only God can judge righteously. Only God can love perfectly. Jay, if you can judge righteously, I admire you. One day, I hope I can too.
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Then I edited my post, because I realized what I said, but it went through after you replied, thus the confusion. Please read what I edited and meant to say:

 

OK, I see. This is one of weaknesses of forums. Comments can pass one another. You did not put words in my mouth.

 

Please, do accept my sincere apology. It has been chalked up to a miscommunication.

 

Thank you!

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But that's just it. You qualified love and righteous judgment by saying it cannot be separated when done by the Spirit. How often is it done by the Spirit? You are right. I still don't understand. I am imperfect. I am a fool. I am a sinner. I acknowledge that only God can judge righteously. Only God can love perfectly. Jay, if you can judge righteously, I admire you. One day, I hope I can too.

 

Having gone back and read your edited reply, allow me one last response. Then I'm finished with this thread.

 

Marc, I wish I were there with you so you could see and hear me, because I am being as sincere and gentle as I know how. I don't expect an immediate reply--I don't expect a reply at all, really. Just offering food for serious thought.

 

Please, consider the following: If you truly believe that Jesus Christ, His atonement and the Holy Ghost are incapable or unable to bless us, to change our hearts to the point that we can judge as He does, what does that imply?

 

Anyone who believes within his heart of hearts that we cannot judge righteously (or develop any other divine attribute), then he will not try. If he never tries, he will never gain the ability to do so (or develop that divine attribute, whatever it is). It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Ultimately, it an indication of a lack of faith, and faith we must have and exercise if we are to become like Him. It is possible!

 

If I may, I'd make one last suggestion. Stop focusing on the fallen nature (fool, imperfect, sinner) and focus on being a son of God, one who is of royal birth, one who is one of God's convent people. Focus on the eternal nature--see and recognize your potential as a God. It is life changing!

 

We must believe (have the faith) that He can change us just as He says He can. We must not only believe in Christ, we must believe what He says as it pertains to us individually. When we do, then, wonderful and miraculous things begin to happen in our lives and to our character, through our Savior's atonement, not through anything we do ourselves.

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JayGlad, I know you are being sincere. I hope you know that I am too. I take no offence whatsoever in anything you said, and I hope you took none in mine. I surely believe that the Holy Ghost can change me. The Holy Ghost has changed me. I have experienced that might change of heart. I have sung the song of redeeming love and I feel to sing it even now. Everything I have said, I spoke as a man. A flawed and fallen man who knows his nothingness before the Lord. I also know that I can be perfected in Christ and that with His Spirit, I can judge righteously. Without His Spirit, I am left to myself. To express more fully what I mean, I will simply quote Ammon. 

 

 

11 ... I do not boast in my own strength, nor in my own wisdom; but behold, my joy is full, yea, my heart is brim with joy, and I will rejoice in my God.

 12 Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things...

 

I do tend to focus more on my fallen nature than becoming a Son of God. I will take your advice to heart as I continue on my journey to do so. Thanks, brother.

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JayGlad, I know you are being sincere. I hope you know that I am too. I take no offence whatsoever in anything you said, and I hope you took none in mine. I surely believe that the Holy Ghost can change me. The Holy Ghost has changed me. I have experienced that might change of heart. I have sung the song of redeeming love and I feel to sing it even now. Everything I have said, I spoke as a man. A flawed and fallen man who knows his nothingness before the Lord. I also know that I can be perfected in Christ and that with His Spirit, I can judge righteously. Without His Spirit, I am left to myself. To express more fully what I mean, I will simply quote Ammon. 

 

 

I do tend to focus more on my fallen nature than becoming a Son of God. I will take your advice to heart as I continue on my journey to do so. Thanks, brother.

 

Thank you Marc and JayGlad for your comments. On this issue I agree more with Marc but I'm glad JayGlad posted because it prompted Marc to post more and there have been some good and interesting things said. I've learned and received important thoughts for my own life from the exchange.

 

I struggle with judging others. I can't do it righteously and therefore I just don't want to do it at all. I'm not confident in my ability to judge righteously but I judge people all of the time without even thinking, without prayer, without consideration, without anything but just my own speculations, perpsectives, and my own knowledge and traditions. What I mean, is that when I judge unrighteously (usually I realize this only in hindsight) I am usually thinking that I am being fair, righteous, good, ect. when in reality I've done nothing but rely on my mind, my strength, my wisdom, my knowledge, my intellect, etc.

 

I am trying not to judge other people at all because it is clear from experience that I don't know what I'm doing.

 

-Finrock

Edited by Finrock
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  • 3 weeks later...

For me, it comes down to this:  The purpose of the church in terms of two of its three fold missions (i.e. to proclaim the gospel and perfect the saints) is to prepare God's children for temple blessings; specifically eternal marriage/eternal families.  As members, it becomes incumbent on us to support that effort.  By a member of the church supporting gay marriage, they are in effect supporting something not only contrary to the purposes of the church, but something that is contrary to God's will for His children.  There is no place in the new and everlasting covenant of marriage for a homosexual union.  If a member of the church cannot find it within themselves to promote the gospel and the eternal ordinances, it seems to me, the least they could do is not support something to the contrary.

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I believe the parable of the Ten Virgins is about to be fulfilled.  I suspect there will be some members of the church (the virgins) who will forced into a position of having to choose between God and mammon.  Will they support church policy or will they support political correctness?

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Warning: Threadjack

 

The purpose of the church in terms of two of its three fold missions (i.e. to proclaim the gospel and perfect the saints) is to prepare God's children for temple blessings; specifically eternal marriage/eternal families.

 

It may interest you to know the Church has only one mission with four components or emphases. Discussion question: How does knowing the "divinely appointed responsibilities" of the Church change your Conference-viewing experience?

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  • 2 months later...

Here is an interesting blog post that I read today:

 

http://www.sixteensmallstones.org/lds-apostle-d-todd-christofferson-did-not-say-that-it-is-okay-for-lds-members-to-support-same-sex-marriage/

 

Even though the partial transcript I made of an interview with LDS Apostle D. Todd Christofferson is a few months old, in the aftermath of the U.S. Supreme Court’s ruling on same-sex marriage, the post has received a considerable number of views during the last three days. Most of these visits are coming from Facebook conversations to which I do not have access, but I imagine that the transcript is being used in debates by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reacting to the Supreme Court’s action.
 
I think it is clear from the parts that I have transcribed that Elder Christofferson did NOT say that there is nothing wrong with members of the church supporting same-sex marriage. He said that expressing personal support for same-sex marriage in social media would not be cause for discipline (as long as it wasn’t part of an organized effort to undermine the church).
 
At the same time, he was clear that the doctrine of the church will not change regarding the law of chastity and the sinfulness of homosexual actions and behaviors (which an official statement by the church in reaction to the ruling reaffirms). And he implied that the church would try use persuasion to try to teach members that their support of same-sex marriage is contrary to God’s will.
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Being converted to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ as an adult, perhaps I see things differently than others. I have to ask, in all sincerity, how can anyone who claims to have a testimony of the divinity of Jesus Christ (and all that implies) stand up and proudly say he supports gay marriage (and all that implies)? The two declarations are diametrically opposed. In all honestly, it's beyond my ability to comprehend.

 

How can one believe that an omniscient, perfect God made them the wrong gender?  How can one support late term abortion but oppose the death penalty for convicted murderers?

 

Gross cognitive dissonance is being treated as some sort of virtue these days.

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