Bruce Jenner

[carlimac]

I start with the axiom that we are all children of God and that mortality is not our natural condition. This life should be viewed and measured from the context of what is our ultimate purpose for being here on this earth. So, we all started out "healthy" as spirits. When we enter mortality we immediately become unhealthy due to the natural man. As we experience mortality we either progress towards a return to our natural state, which is being with God, or we digress further from our natural state by becoming more separated from God. Moving towards God is "healthy" whereas moving away from God is "unhealthy". The healthiest mental state possible is having the mind of God. Any deviation from this standard represents an illness to some degree.

 

Committing sin causes mental illness. If we exist in a state of rebellion against God to any degree, to that same degree we are suffering from a mental illness. When we live in sin or when we adopt sinful philosophies we are necessarily delusional and are suffering a form of mental illness.

 

Bruce Jenner is suffering from a severe form of mental illness and because our society in large measure is suffering from mental illness as well, it doesn't even recognize that this is a problem and should not be supported but rather we should be doing something to help this poor fellow and people like him.

 

We should be helping one another become more like Heavenly Father. We should be helping our brothers and sisters know who they are and what their potential is. When we forget this basic purpose and basic knowledge and we try to segregate life in to boxes then we do ourselves and others a disservice because we become enablers and supporters of behavior that will lead people to hell rather than to happiness and we will suffer right along side them. So, this isn't just a case where we can say, "Well, it doesn't hurt me, so why should I care?" If God didn't exist, and if we weren't brothers and sisters, and if the Plan of Salvation was false then maybe we could get away with stating that things like this don't hurt anybody so why should we care. But because God is real and because the Plan of Salvation is real it means that we are all affected by what each person does to some degree. Because we are all connected we ought to be fighting for the cause of Zion rather than just apathetically allowing the notions of what is normal and healthy to be degraded in society to the point where eventually anything and everything goes.

 

-Finrock

 

I certainly agree with you Finrock in idea and theory. But putting that into practice is a whole nuther side of the issue. For the most part, those who are engaged in gay relationships or are transgendered want no part of anyone telling them what they are doing is sinful or wrong.  They are SO protective of their "rights" to act any way they feel and to engage in any kind of behavior they want to that they become the bullies they cry out against. And yet they can't see their actions as bullying. They feel they are perfectly justified in ranting, using the grossest of language and insults against anyone who is religious.

 

 I recently had that experience. I'm no New Testament apostle and have no desire to put myself in that situation over and over again.  I also think that deep down, most homosexuals and transgenders know that their choice of behavior is offensive to God and to nature, so don't need us telling them that.  

 

I prefer to just keep my ideas and beliefs on the matter to myself, unless it's in some anonymous forum, like this one. (Semi- anon anyway) Or on a comments section where I can try to word a response with logic using the spirit as my guide. But to tell someone these things to their face, I believe is a dangerous proposition. I actually felt threatened by the gang mentality of this particular facebook group when I spoke up, even in the most civil and inoffensive manner I could muster. I spoke of God and Jesus Christ, tried to explain and defend Church leaders and in response was berated and felt like they were spitting in my face. I think they would have if I had been in there presence and not just on facebook. they twisted my words and were obviously intent on humiliating me and my beliefs.  I'm done with that.  

Edited April 27, 2015 by carlimac

[The Folk Prophet]

From a certain point of view, mentally ill is any mentality that is corrupt at any level - veering from wisdom, truth, and light. From this perspective, we all have some level of mental illness, because we are all askew in some ways, which makes it a sliding scale. The further we go from truth and light, the more mentally ill we are. That is, of course, if you judge the relativity of it to truth and light with God as our exemplar, rather than basing it on the ever changing what-is-normal mark.

 

Of course then we'd have to get into the discussion of exactly at what point of distance from truth and light do we draw the line in the sand and name it "mentally ill". That's a semantic debate that's hardly worth having. And any professional in the mental health field should well know that it's a semantic debate, no matter what mark is being set as the defining criteria against which to judge.

 

In other words, potato, po-tah-to. Who cares?

 

What is clear is that Bruce Jenner is very, very askew from wisdom, truth and light.

[carlimac]

I could be wrong about him not having the surgery. I didn't watch the whole interview and don't intend to. But it sounds like he's pretty serious about being a gal for the rest of his life. 

 

I did think one of his first comments about why he has this issue was interesting and probably spot on. He said God gave him this trial to deal with.   Whether he's dealing with it the way God expects him to...I dunno. I don't have to be the judge, thank heavens. 

[Finrock]

I certainly agree with you Finrock in idea and theory. But putting that into practice is a whole nuther side of the issue. For the most part, those who are engaged in gay relationships or are transgendered want no part of anyone telling them what they are doing is sinful or wrong.  They are SO protective of their "rights" to act any way they feel and to engage in any kind of behavior they want to that they become the bullies they cry out against. And yet they can't see their actions as bullying. They feel they are perfectly justified in ranting, using the grossest of language and insults against anyone who is religious.

 

 I recently had that experience. I'm no New Testament apostle and have no desire to put myself in that situation over and over again.  I also think that deep down, most homosexuals and transgenders know that their choice of behavior is offensive to God and to nature, so don't need us telling them that.  

 

I prefer to just keep my ideas and beliefs on the matter to myself, unless it's in some anonymous forum, like this one. (Semi- anon anyway) Or on a comments section where I can try to word a response with logic using the spirit as my guide. But to tell someone these things to their face, I believe is a dangerous proposition. I actually felt threatened by the gang mentality of this particular facebook group when I spoke up, even in the most civil and inoffensive manner I could muster. I spoke of God and Jesus Christ, tried to explain and defend Church leaders and in response was berated and felt like they were spitting in my face. I think they would have if I had been in there presence and not just on facebook. they twisted my words and were obviously intent on humiliating me and my beliefs.  I'm done with that.  

 

Good Afternoon carlimac,

 

I'm sorry that you experienced such behavior from those people on Facebook. Its really tough to have someone ridicule you and treat your sacred beliefs with such disdain.

 

There is confusion inside and outside of the Church as to how to deal with these things and people seem to be conflating and mixing up philosophies. I don't know how often members of the Church really consider life on the terms that I detailed. Meaning, I read and hear posts from members of the Church and their message seems to ignore the fact that God is real, we are literally His children and He has a plan for us.

 

Of course most people on this earth do not know or understand the fact that they are God's children, however, when you do know this an understand this then you can at least approach the question from the right perspective and you will not be fooled by some of the very persuasive and pleasing messages that are being presented but which are counter to what God has revealed. The modern day justification for allowing all sorts of behavior uses terms such as love and tolerance to try to make their message appealing to many people, and it works. Most people want to be good and do good. They are simply confused as to what love is and what tolerance is.

 

So, my message wasn't meant to be something that you go and say to those who support transgender or homosexual relationships, not unless the Spirit prompts you, but rather I wanted to cut out the clutter and get to the core of the issue so as to provide a clear picture as to what we are talking about and what is really at stake. I hope that my words will be helpful to someone in seeing what it is we are really talking about.

 

-Finrock

[bytebear]

Here are my thoughts.  First of all, I believe God gives everyone challenges.  It is our task to overcome those challenges and learn happiness despite them.  That said, I think it's wrong to try to fix things in an attempt to chase happiness. It rarely works that way.

 

But I also think anyone who goes to such lengths isn't just doing it for fame, or because they are unhappy.  It's far deeper than that.  To take such risks culturally and physically tells me he is truly trying to fix something inside him.  And I have no problem with someone trying to make their lives better, even if it's misguided.  And I don't really care if someone wants to dress up if it makes them feell better.  Their choice.

 

Also, the church does not prohibit transgendered people from baptism, so God must know more about their heart than we do.

[bytebear]

You know it's funny.  If a transgendered person joins the church, they do not have to forgo their chosen gender, but we do make people stop drinking coffee.  Something to think about.

[pam]

Here's my thoughts.  I'm sick of this story being the #1 story in my newsfeed every day.

[Pa Pa]

Have any of you actually watched his interview? Are you therapists who can diagnose mental illness? He is not mentally ill. Gender identity is not an illness. You know not of what you speak.

I watched it, but doctors are under the obligation to "do no harm". Suicides are high among those who receive sex change operations. As such stricter rules have change from earlier days...requiring that applicants live for at least one year as a woman or man if the process is to continue. Most are rejected because of mental health reasons. In his case, I hope his wealth does not tempt doctors to break any rules. His high profile as an "Gold Medal", status and his fame on television also concerns me. People should not be unkind and from one of your posts you feel that many have gone too far...I agree. But for the rank and file, most are rejected because many they think they are transgender, but are rejected because of depression, which leads them to believe they are depressed and being someone else would make it better. If he things this is to be, why do the interview (which will put their ratings and earning potential into outrageous level) in the public eye. Also just because someone thinks they are transgendered...if there were not some many rejected, I would say that in most cases (which we know are due to physiological) this should be a point of concern. Either way making jokes about it shows a lack of tact. So I will not be jumping on that bandwagon. But in his interview he could not answer as to what sex he would be attacked is quite telling. But what we should all do is to try to be understanding and prayerful for Bruce. No good can ever come from mocking. People usually mock because, we humans love labels, we like to put everyone we know into little boxes so they can be managed and we can make sense of things we do not understand...it is a coping mechanism. It is hard work for so many, as it is for me, to take the time to get to know others to get the full picture. Whatever the reason, or cause, or environment...we should be kid. Simply put; "when in doubt, be kind". Christlike love requires us to walk the extra mile...that (of course) is what our Saviour would do. You have not been LDS, for as many years as most here, so the last thing I would want for you (my dear sister) is to think others of our faith are mean, angry or un-Christlike. But that is the nature of the beast, that words upon a page; it can lead to misunderstandings. No doubt you have seen the news where many women have gotten very upset, even beating one guy up for using women's bathrooms...until you are indeed a woman, that has got to stop! But in our day (the present) City, State and Federal need to protect all, and not think only of the tenth, of a tenth, of a tenth, of a tenth.

[Capitalist_Oinker]

Also, the church does not prohibit transgendered people from baptism...

 

That depends.

 

HBI #1 16.3.16 Persons Who Are Considering or Have Undergone a Transsexual Operation.

 

"A person who is considering an elective transsexual operation may not be baptized or confirmed. Baptism and confirmation of a person who has already undergone an elective transsexual operation require the approval of the First Presidency. The mission president may request this approval if he has interviewed the person, found him or her to be otherwise worthy, and can recommend baptism. However, such persons may not receive the priesthood or a temple recommend."

Edited April 29, 2015 by Capitalist_Oinker

[The Big One]

Bruce Jenner is an ugly man, and he never will be, thank God, a beautiful woman. He is, like all transsexuals, mentally ill and perverse.

[NightSG]

IMO, it all comes back to plain and simple; be yourself.  If you don't like who God made you, either get your brain fixed or take it up with Him.  He's known you longer than you effectively have, after all.

 

If I go get a really good tan, learn Spanish and decide to call myself Guatemalan, I'll be at best ridiculed and distrusted, so why should claiming a gender other than what you're born with be any different?

Edited May 1, 2015 by NightSG