Resigning from the Church


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Posted (edited) · Hidden by estradling75, June 23, 2015 - dup
Hidden by estradling75, June 23, 2015 - dup

duplicate.

Edited by anatess
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I will say it again, and maybe it will sink in.

Catholics do not view material possessions as a sign of God's favor.

From the talk I linked:

The Lord has demonstrated throughout the generations that when the inhabitants of the earth remember him and are obedient to his direction, he will bless them not only with spiritual blessings, but with material abundance as well.

No, you will never see this taught in the Catholic Church. Never has, never will. It defies the Cross. Jesus' perfect obedience led to the Cross, not to Nordstrom's.

We're hijacking the thread. If you want to discuss this further, let's open a new thread. But because this got started, I'm just going to give a small teaching to hopefully get us past this, at least for this thread, so we can quit hijacking the thread.

The error is in your understanding of what you quoted from the LDS talk in relation to the health and wealth Catholic teaching. Simply put - you completely misunderstood the LDS teaching of what "material abundance" is about... because, it simply and completely is in the same vein as the devotion to Our Lady of Good Remedy and the miracles that made John of Matha a saint. Nothing in mortality can be accomplished without material wealth - from the massive Cathedrals of the Catholic Church and the massive Temples of the LDS Church to the material goods necessary to celebrate the Eucharist and the LDS administration of the sacrament to the programs to help the poor and the Bishop Storehouse. Even Mother Theresa relied on the abundance of material resources to perform her miracles. And there was that widow with her son who was preparing her last meal before they died of starvation and the prophet asked them to give him water and bake him bread. The widow gave the prophet their last meal and the Lord provided them with material abundance from then on that they didn't go hungry again.

And that's really all it is - if you are righteous and your heart is in the right place, we are as sparrows in the sky that God will provide with the material abundance to perform our work for the Lord.

There are a lot of differences between LDS and Catholic teaching - big and small. This one is not one of them.

And that's all I'm gonna say about that.

Edited by anatess
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Okay, for the LDS here who may not know Catholic tradition as it relates to "Blessings of Prosperity and Material Wealth" touched on in that talk blueskye linked to:

The best Catholic example that I can share with you off the top of my head is the background story of Our Lady of Good Remedy and St. John of Matha. Back in the 1100's, Christians were being taken from their homes and sold to slavery. St. John was born to wealthy and noble parents whose wealth helped him provide help to those in need and gave him opportunities for higher education. John became a priest and pledged the vow of poverty. But he desired to help these enslaved Christians to buy them out of the slave market. Having pledged poverty, he didn't have any money to accomplish the task so he formed the Order of the Trinitiarians to make money. They prayed daily for help and intercession of the Blessed Mary, Mother of Jesus, to help them prosper. Their prayers were answered and they were blessed with material wealth that they were able to use to buy thousands of Christians out of the slave market.

The example of the Order of the Trinitarians devotion to Mary started the Catholic-wide devotion to Our Lady of Good Remedy with a feast day celebrated in October. St. John of Matha got canonized a Saint and the sculpture that depicts his sainthood is of Mother Mary giving him a bag of coins. A lot of Catholics who are in need of financial or material assistance pray for intercession from Our Lady of Good Remedy.

I wish I had Vort's talents of story telling. I love the story of St. John of Matha and I'm fairly certain Vort could do a lot better job of telling this magnificent story to do it justice.

Yes, nothing in there that says the material things they needed to help the poor were a result of obedience. They are a result of prayer, that is, petitioning God to help them so they can help others. The good brothers of the Order of Trinitarians would not view God providing with them with what they need, as a sign of their own righteousness.

 

I am not saying, at all, that God does not want us to have what we need. Material excess goes beyond need, and yes, I agree that both churches teach that we should be charitable.

 

It is the LDS teaching that prosperity is a sign of one's own righteousness, that is not a Catholic teaching, and never will be.

Edited by blueskye
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It is the LDS teaching that prosperity is a sign of one's own righteousness, that is not a Catholic teaching, and never will be.

 

But it is not a teaching...  It states simply that if you obey God (aka righteousness including prayers) then the Lord will bless you...    This should be unarguable 

 

The fact that some of the those blessings are material in nature is just how god works.

 

To teach those facts are pretty clear cut.

 

However to twist teachings into a judgement that those with more material things are more righteousness is a horrible wresting of the scriptures and teachings the church gives.

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It is the LDS teaching that prosperity is a sign of one's own righteousness, that is not a Catholic teaching, and never will be.

 

You should work very hard not to say blatantly false and defamatory things. As a start, you might consider keeping quiet when you haven't any idea what you're talking about. Just a suggestion.

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Yes, nothing in there that says the material things they needed to help the poor were a result of obedience. They are a result of prayer..

That is silly. They were obedient to the commandment to love others, hence the need for wealth, and their prayers are answered.

 

It is the LDS teaching that prosperity is a sign of one's own righteousness, that is not a Catholic teaching, and never will be.

And the way you understand that sentence is not the LDS teaching either.

Just so you don't get confused on what the LDS teaching is - read 1 Kings 17: 10-16. THAT is what the talk you linked is trying to teach. It is the same teaching as the Catholic exegesis of that scripture.

Edited by anatess
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That is silly. They were obedient to the commandment to love others and their prayers are answered.

 

And the way you understand that sentence is not the LDS teaching either.

Just so you don't get confused on what the LDS teaching is - read 1 Kings 17: 10-16. THAT is what the talk you linked is trying to teach. It is the same teaching as the Catholic exegesis of that scripture.

So, you think if a prayer is not answered it is a sign of personal disobedience? What of, it rains on both the wicked and the righteous?

 

Catholics view the scripture you reference in 1 Kings, as prefiguring the Eucharist. I don't think we have the same exegesis there.

Edited by blueskye
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We're hijacking the thread. If you want to discuss this further, let's open a new thread. But because this got started, I'm just going to give a small teaching to hopefully get us past this, at least for this thread, so we can quit hijacking the thread.

The error is in your understanding of what you quoted from the LDS talk in relation to the health and wealth Catholic teaching. Simply put - you completely misunderstood the LDS teaching of what "material abundance" is about... because, it simply and completely is in the same vein as the devotion to Our Lady of Good Remedy and the miracles that made John of Matha a saint. Nothing in mortality can be accomplished without material wealth - from the massive Cathedrals of the Catholic Church and the massive Temples of the LDS Church to the material goods necessary to celebrate the Eucharist and the LDS administration of the sacrament to the programs to help the poor and the Bishop Storehouse. Even Mother Theresa relied on the abundance of material resources to perform her miracles. And there was that widow with her son who was preparing her last meal before they died of starvation and the prophet asked them to give him water and bake him bread. The widow gave the prophet their last meal and the Lord provided them with material abundance from then on that they didn't go hungry again.

And that's really all it is - if you are righteous and your heart is in the right place, we are as sparrows in the sky that God will provide with the material abundance to perform our work for the Lord.

There are a lot of differences between LDS and Catholic teaching - big and small. This one is not one of them.

And that's all I'm gonna say about that.

New thread.

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Hi, I linked to an LDS article, which does not reference Catholic exegesis on Luke 18. 

 

I know, it's fun to change the subject, but the LDS article I referenced focuses on LDS exegesis of the Book of Mormon. Which clearly teaches, wealth is the result of righteousness.

Sorry. I was being cute. Luke 18 is about humility... a requirement for the righteous dominion of material abundance - the missing link to your understanding of the talk you referenced... AND something that also ties to your "I teach RCIA" comment. ;)

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So, you think if a prayer is not answered it is a sign of personal disobedience? What of, it rains on both the wicked and the righteous?

 

Catholics view the scripture you reference in 1 Kings, as prefiguring the Eucharist. I don't think we have the same exegesis there.

No. Both Catholics and LDS teach the same thing about prayer too. If your prayers are not answered it means what you prayed for is not in line with the will of God for you at that moment.

Hah hah on 1 Kings 17. Because, you know, it is all about the Eucharist and nothing to do with the faith of the widow nor the authority of a Prophet nor God's blessings to the righteous... no... it only has to do with the Eucharist. C'mon, you're not being a good representative of the Catholic faith here.

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Based on what the Pope has been saying lately, I'm happy to have nothing to do with the Catholic church anymore, anyway.

As to making more money, or prosperity.  I think you mostly would be the same.

Now, you could say that without drunkeness you might do better financial wise.

But that's debatable.

There certainly are enough areas where alcohol fuels the success.

There are jobs and professions where you have to share a drink, buy a drink, drink sociably.  It's probably less so today, but a lot of people have no motivation without alcohol.

That was what happened to my brother.  The more he drank, the more money he made.  It was all fueled by the alcohol.

And that was what ultimately killed him.

 

As to your drinking and smoking.  That ain't no skin off my teeth, suit yourself.

I have a Catholic friend who would never smoke, but he will relax with a small glass of wine in the late evening.  He says it helps him relax and sleep better.

 

Myself,  I have no need in my life for any alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, including 99% of prescription drugs nor 'vaccines'. 

dc

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I'm here for discussion. If you think I must agree with everything said, or hold back my views, then maybe you should just have a conversation with yourself. :D

 

I don't really care whether or not you approve of my interest in Mormonism, or movies, books or cars, for that matter.

 

Believe who you're more comfortable believing. 

 

You have a very skewed idea of "discussion".  Anyone who doesn't agree with your closed-minded, distorted take on something is dismissed as not being part of the "discussion".  Coming to a forum filled with members of the church that you rejected, to tell them how 'wrong' they are and how 'right' you are is not a discussion.  We will never know if you have the ability to actually grasp the very simple teachings in the talk that you referenced because you have zero intention of trying to understand.

 

Your views are crystal clear.  It comes across in your arrogant, dismissive approach to "discussion".

 

You seem to want us to believe that you are deliriously happy in your new choice of church.  Yet, nothing of the sort shows through in your posts.  If you are so confident in your new beliefs, why the inability to let go of your past?  Why the need to feebly attempt (and failingly so) tell Mormons that not only are they "wrong", that you know more than active, practicing Mormons do about the church and it's teachings?  What is missing from your life that compels you to do this?

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Would Jesus say this?

 

Lets see what Jesus has said shall we

 

Matthew 23

 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, ahypocrites! for ye pay btithe of mint and canise and cummin, and havedomitted the weightier matters of the law, ejudgment,fmercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow aacamel.

 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of aextortion and bexcess.

 26 Thou blind Pharisee, acleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

 

Huh  interesting  lets try some more

 

Matthew 4

 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, aSatan: for it is written, Thou shalt bworship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

That seems pretty harsh given that he is talking to Peter.

Then there is John 8

 44 Ye are of your father the adevil, and the blusts of your father ye will do. He was a cmurderer from the beginning, and abode not in the dtruth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a elie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a fliar, and the father of it.

 

And then there is this doozy..

 

John 2

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of amoney sitting:

 15 And when he had made a ascourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;

 

Can we say owie?

 

So Trumpetguy it seems to me that if you are going to try to Jesus-shame someone you would do well to understand all the bible has to say about the character of Jesus.

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Well said, Leah.

Aren't there any Catholic forums out there?  If so, you won't find me out there trolling them.

dc

There's Catholic Answers Forum. I got banned from there. One of CAF's favorite past times is to bash LDS. It got quite vicious so I tried to do the "Catholic to LDS bridging" that you've seen me do here a lot... the admins called it proselyting and banned me. If lds.net was run like CAF, blueskye and myself would have been banned from here long time ago.

Edited by anatess
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There's Catholic Answers Forum. I got banned from there. One of CAF's favorite past times is to bash LDS. It got quite vicious so I tried to do the "Catholic to LDS bridging" that you've seen me do here a lot... the admins called it proselyting and banned me. If lds.net was run like CAF, blueskye and myself would have been banned from here long time ago.

 

I too tried Catholic Answers Forum, trying to increase my understanding of Catholic faith / people.  It... was a very negative experience.  After that, I promised myself to try to make lds.net a better place, more kind to those not of our faith.

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  • 3 weeks later...

There's Catholic Answers Forum. I got banned from there. One of CAF's favorite past times is to bash LDS. It got quite vicious so I tried to do the "Catholic to LDS bridging" that you've seen me do here a lot... the admins called it proselyting and banned me. If lds.net was run like CAF, blueskye and myself would have been banned from here long time ago.

 

I'm sorry you were banned!  Was your name anatess on their site as well?  I go there every now and then, but any threads to do with the LDS are on a separate forum for different religions to have discussions, and although those threads can get heated, I've rarely seen anyone banned (and that includes all different religions chiming in and getting a bit angry).  But perhaps I don't go often enough to notice.  I'm certainly not a regular here or there.  

 

 However, I really don't notice a difference between these forums and CAF.  I've seen plenty of heated replies from every side and blatant disrespect for others beliefs here as well (I know I've been guilty of some of those things too, so I'm NOT pointing fingers).  And just like you may view non-LDS coming to "bash" your beliefs, it happens there as well with non-Catholics coming to "bash" our beliefs (including LDS members who are ex-Catholic).  It happens everywhere religion is discussed, no matter the religion, not matter the forum.  I'm not trying to say CAF is better, or start a forum argument, I'm just relaying my experiences of both forums.  

 

As a Catholic member of this site, I come here to understand my neighbors better, who are predominately LDS. Sometimes I have questions I would like to ask, but it's just too tricky to do face-to-face, so I come here and find answers to my questions from a LDS perspective, I see nothing wrong with that.  There have been times I have felt welcome here, and many times I have not, yet I still come every now and then b/c I understand that this is a better place to go for answers to LDS questions, than on a non-LDS site.    

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I don't intent to say anything bad about any other church and that includes the Catholic Church.  I just didn't find all these "other activities" there, only one hour of church on Sunday, but I in essence left the church nearly 50 years ago in my late teens and never went back.

Other than 3 masses in those 50 years. 

And I saw no change. 

Tho' I do have to say I think the Pope spoke total garbage about gun manufacturers recently, assuredly so in that he is protected 24/7 by guards armed with guns and it's believed the church is heavily invested in the oldest gun manufacturer in the world (500 years).

I certainly don't understand someone who leaves the LDS church and becomes so poisoned of mind to come back and obsessively, post after post, post misconceptions about LDS church and people.  How can anyone make themselves so bitter.  Well, needlessly so.

dc

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I'm sorry you were banned!  Was your name anatess on their site as well?  I go there every now and then, but any threads to do with the LDS are on a separate forum for different religions to have discussions, and although those threads can get heated, I've rarely seen anyone banned (and that includes all different religions chiming in and getting a bit angry).  But perhaps I don't go often enough to notice.  I'm certainly not a regular here or there. 

 

I'm pinay there.  I haven't been there in a while - got banned in Dec 2011 - for a post I made in the Non-Catholics forum titled "LDS: Jesus Always God?"... reason given was - Proselyting. 

 

I find it funny that they have a Non-Catholic Forum with Catholics bashing LDS thread after thread after thread (at that time, almost every thread was LDS-related) and when I tried to set things straight I got banned for proselyting.

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I'm pinay there.  I haven't been there in a while - got banned in Dec 2011 - for a post I made in the Non-Catholics forum titled "LDS: Jesus Always God?"... reason given was - Proselyting. 

 

I find it funny that they have a Non-Catholic Forum with Catholics bashing LDS thread after thread after thread (at that time, almost every thread was LDS-related) and when I tried to set things straight I got banned for proselyting.

 

Hmmm...there aren't many LDS threads anymore, there are a few, but the majority of "bashing" comes from ex-LDS members (but to be completely fair, not all the LDS site members are respectful either...in short it's not a pretty view from either side).  If a question is too antagonistic, I've seen several Catholics actually defend our LDS site members, just as every now and then I see some LDS defend Catholics on this site. No single religion is immune to this behavior, we are all human after all , and we are all passionate about our beliefs...sometimes we all just suck at having a peaceful discussion <_<   

 

And I'm guessing that the increase in LDS threads was due to Romney running for President that year.  There was probably alot of curiosity about his beliefs, and once a topic gets heated and carried away, it can be hard to put out (including here on these forums).  

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