How to discuss the gospel with homosexuals...

[carlimac]

I know it seems that I'm hung up on this topic. Maybe I am. It's one of the most troubling topics related to the church for me and I'm still trying to get my head around all the different messages I'm hearing. 

 

So as I mentioned on a different thread, I've been in an intense discussion with some gay friends. One of them has been posting derogatory memes and posts about the LDS Church, especially right after General Conference. I find them not only offensive but incorrect and I found I couldn't let that just sit out there without attempting to correct the info and defend our viewpoint. I know that many many more than just me and the two or three of them are reading the discussion. I'm trying to be respectful but absolutely truthful in what I say. 

 

Sadly, more of their friends jump on the bandwagon to bash the church and me personally. In this latest discussion, no one came to support me. (Tragically, the friend that usually would help me out passed away from a sudden heart attack at age 51 ten days ago.) 

 

My question is, do we even try to push back on the false messages being put out there by the LGBT people? In bearing my testimony to them of eternal families, mom and dad families, personal agency and all that I almost feel like I'm casting pearls before swine. 

 

I feel like I should boldly bear testimony but the backlash is so ugly. Should I just not go there?

[Guest]

I wouldn't.

The cup is fulleth...

[NeuroTypical]

Something dawned on me as I completed my nth year of arguing religion online.  Neither I, nor the person I'm arguing with, will end up budging an inch in our positions.  The point isn't to win.  The point, is all the lurking folks watching the argument go by.  The undecideds, the folks who aren't so entrenched, those not participating, but reading the discussion.  The reason to argue online, is to give them something to think about.

 

Though argument does not create conviction, the lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish."  Austin Farrer, "The Christian Apologist,"

 

D&C 71:

5 Now, behold this is wisdom; whoso readeth, let him understand and receive also; 

6 For unto him that receiveth it shall be given more abundantly, even power. 

7 Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest. 

8 Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord. 

9 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—there is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; 

10 And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time. 

11 Wherefore, keep my commandments; they are true and faithful. Even so. Amen.

 

1 Peter 3:15:  "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

1 Thessalonians 5:21:  "Prove all things; hold fast to which is good."

Jude 1:3: "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

[carlimac]

I wouldn't.

The cup is fulleth...

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is it "Oh no, not another gay thread?"  Or something else?  I don't want to discuss the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality.  I'm more interested in the nuances of declaring truth to those of the LGBT community or really any other group who is antagonistic toward the LDS Church.

[Guest]

The Spirit cannot dwell in a forum full of vitriol. I will engage (even if there is no inch given on either side) if the discussion was conducive to learning. From what carlimac described, it's not the case in that particular forum. Joining in the cesspool is not going to clean it up. It's just gonna provide more fuel for the fire.

[Guest]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is it "Oh no, not another gay thread?"  Or something else?  I don't want to discuss the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality.  I'm more interested in the nuances of declaring truth to those of the LGBT community or really any other group who is antagonistic toward the LDS Church.

The cup is fulleth... that means - the people in that forum have cups that are full. You need space in your cup to allow a grain of truth to sit on.

Edited April 8, 2015 by anatess

[The Folk Prophet]

I almost feel like I'm casting pearls before swine. 

 

This.

 

There is a time and a place, of course, to defend the gospel, even on Facebook. But for the most part, it strikes me that arguing with anyone on Facebook about anything is, pretty much a non-starter, even for those lurkers. What it comes across as is a bunch of people being nasty to each other.

 

Post truths there. Speak your beliefs in your own shares, etc., and then let the comments be. That's my thinking.

[prisonchaplain]

The bottom-line issue is NOT whether it's okay with God to be/engage in the LBGT lifestyle.  It's whether there is a God we are accountable to.  My sense is that many who post hate towards religious traditionalists do not believe so.  My suggestion would be to engage them in the big question of whether there really is a God or not.  If there is, are we accountable to him or not?  If they refuse, then your OP question is answered.  :-)

[Guest MormonGator]

Um, I discuss the gospel with "homosexuals" like I do with anyone else. Their sexuality means to them as much as mine means me, which is to say "not much". 

Edited April 8, 2015 by MormonGator

[Guest]

I don't even bother talking about homosexuality when it comes to these types of discussions.

All I ever say is... okay, I'm just going to tell you what I said to a 14-year-old girl buddy of my son who posted a video of a homosexual ranting about RFRA - I gave her a short explanation of what RFRA is actually about - which led her to respectfully ask me why religious people hate homosexuals:

"Religious people - at least the good ones - do not hate homosexuals. I am a religious person and my religion do not preach hate in any shape, manner, or form. But, we believe that certain actions are good while certain actions are sinful. We believe that sex is good but sex outside of marriage is sinful - be it gay, straight, or anyone else. We also believe the covenant of marriage is between a man, a woman, and God. Because of this, people who choose to only have sex with people of the same gender doesn't have a way to engage in sexual activity that is not sinful. Being gay is not sinful until you put yourself in a situation leading to sexual activity with the same gender."

That's it. I don't try to explain any further than that... whether you're born gay or pulling bible verses or anything of the sort. This is what our Church teaches and what I believe, do with it what you will.

[carlimac]

I don't even bother talking about homosexuality when it comes to these types of discussions.

All I ever say is... okay, I'm just going to tell you what I said to a 14-year-old girl buddy of my son who posted a video of a homosexual ranting about RFRA - I gave her a short explanation of what RFRA is actually about - which led her to respectfully ask me why religious people hate homosexuals:

"Religious people - at least the good ones - do not hate homosexuals. I am a religious person and my religion do not preach hate in any shape, manner, or form. But, we believe that certain actions are good while certain actions are sinful. We believe that sex is good but sex outside of marriage is sinful - be it gay, straight, or anyone else. We also believe the covenant of marriage is between a man, a woman, and God. Because of this, people who choose to only have sex with people of the same gender doesn't have a way to engage in sexual activity that is not sinful. Being gay is not sinful until you put yourself in a situation leading to sexual activity with the same gender."

That's it. I don't try to explain any further than that... whether you're born gay or pulling bible verses or anything of the sort. This is what our Church teaches and what I believe, do with it what you will.

 

This is all good stuff. Problem is that that these guys KNOW all this. They were raised LDS. But they still rant against Elder Perry using the words "counterfeit relationships", they rant against Joseph Smith, they accuse LDS parents of driving their kids to suicide. It just goes on and on. Here's an example:

 

(Friend posts picture of two gay dads - not himself, just someone he knows- with their dressed to the nines twin 6 yr old boys and baby girl-  a beautiful picture which I acknowledged.)

 

My response:  This family is beautiful. The men have done great acts of service and love. (apparently built schools in Africa) But there is an essential element missing. Its painfully absent in this lovely picture. 

 

Friend response: It must be an exhausting burden to sit in judgment of others' families and relationships, deciding which are counterfeit, which are inferior to yours, and which have painfully missing elements.  (You have to know this guy to realize his comment is dripping with sarcasm)

 

My response: Its not a burden at all to simply observe that a mother for these children is missing. The burden is of sadness for them. Aside from that, I'm not judging. You must be carrying a heavy load of contempt yourself. Post after post criticizing, mocking, making fun of peoples heartfelt beliefs. Seems a bit inharmonious to a peaceful life. 

 

Well it went on from there. I asked how gay parents explain to their children why they don't have a mom or dad. How do they answer a child who says, "I love you but I really wish I had a mom (or dad)."    I sincerely want an answer to that. but I guess defensive gay guys aren't going to give a very reasonable, measured answer.   Out of nowhere comes some lady saying I'm being mean. ( She has no idea how much joking went on between me and one of these guys in high school. He gets it, she doesn't.)   Then some other guy- no idea who he is, starts talking about how Mormons are denying him all sorts of rights.  I said, "Last I heard the Church was trying very hard to obtain rights for gays in Utah."  Then he says this to me,  "Carol, I will forever be grateful to you (and I mean this most sincerely.) I left Utah almost 15 years ago and the combination of the conference talk and your views (and I can tell that you truly believe you are being a loving, kind, appropriate Christian) pushed me to finally have my name removed from the LDS Church records."

 

Creepy for one thing, but also incredibly sad, the knee jerk reactions to trying to talk about something that is important- the kids mixed up in adult decisions. I made it completely clear that I don't understand why people are homosexual but give them the right to have whatever kind of relationship they want. I'm not judging them till they bring innocent kids into the picture. I thought I was being fair, clear, and inquisitive about how they would handle tricky situations with kids. I get slammed. Insulted, my religion bashed and defamed.   Guess I won't wade into those waters full of snakes and alligators again. Even with guys I thought were friends. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by carlimac

[Guest]

Guess I won't wade into those waters full of snakes and alligators again. Even with guys I thought were friends.

Yep. That.

[The Folk Prophet]

...the combination of the conference talk and your views...pushed me to finally have my name removed from the LDS Church records.

 

You realize, of course, that this ^ is a manipulative lie.

[carlimac]

You realize, of course, that this ^ is a manipulative lie.

 

Well I have no idea who this person is. He could be lying or telling the truth. I didn't reply to him at all.  If he's telling the truth it's between him and the Lord. I sincerely don't take any responsibility for it because I was not mean or disrespectful to him at all. I stated I was disappointed in my friend for mocking the church that is important to so many friends and family, I stated my testimony and my worry for kids with gay parents. That's it. 

[Jane_Doe]

I"m a huge proponent of interfaith-interview dialogue.  Through this I have learned a few things:

 

1)  Try to understand a person from their shoes, not yours.

2)  If someone wants to learn, it's a great time to teach.

3)  If someone doesn't want to learn, it can't be forced.

4)  Usually you got to just agree to disagree.

[The Folk Prophet]

Well I have no idea who this person is. He could be lying or telling the truth. I didn't reply to him at all.  If he's telling the truth it's between him and the Lord. I sincerely don't take any responsibility for it because I was not mean or disrespectful to him at all. I stated I was disappointed in my friend for mocking the church that is important to so many friends and family, I stated my testimony and my worry for kids with gay parents. That's it. 

 

My point is that it is a lie to blame leaving the church on conference talks and/or what someone said. That is not why someone leaves the church.

[EarlJibbs]

Everyone that I have on FB are people (family and friends) that I would personally hang out with if given the chance. Almost all are far away now. If they do things that offend me, I let it slide and don't get involved most of the times as there is no reason. If I feel that something is just too much, I would reach out to them individually. No need to talk about everything publicly.

 

 If it gets to be too much, I remove them, just like I would if they were physically around me. 

[skalenfehl]

I seldom have, although one gal who lived in my town before I moved, who was formally a temple endowed, sealed to her husband, now divorced, living LGBT lifestyle, and I have chatted on rare occasions about church. People have their agency. The strongest testimony you can bear is to live your own life in harmony with the gospel. Let your own light so shine so that people can see what they might be missing. Never judge. Only love. Never coerce. Only persuade. If you are moved upon by the Spirit to start a conversation with someone who is LGBT (or any other mortal; we ALL sin) about the gospel, then do so as moved upon. Otherwise, just treat them like you would anybody you love. The irony, though is we tend to judge most harshly those we love most (son, daughter, sister, brother...). After work today, I happened to walk out with a co-worker who is gay (family is LDS). I didn't feel the need to say anything about his sexuality anymore than he felt the need to say anything about my Christianity. I know he is studying to be a sytlist and also barbering. I told him I've been cutting my own hair for a year now and just starting to teach myself to do a proper fade. We carried a normal conversation as we would with anybody else. He knows I'm a faithful LDS and he was respectful of me just as I was respectful of him. 

[carlimac]

Everyone that I have on FB are people (family and friends) that I would personally hang out with if given the chance. Almost all are far away now. If they do things that offend me, I let it slide and don't get involved most of the times as there is no reason. If I feel that something is just too much, I would reach out to them individually. No need to talk about everything publicly.

 

 If it gets to be too much, I remove them, just like I would if they were physically around me. 

These unknown people interjecting their opinions into the facebook discussion were friends of the friend I was posting to. They aren't on my friend list at all. I have this one particular gay guy "hidden" because I don't like what he posts. He can be crude.  But every now and then he comments on something I have posted and it can turn into a firestorm in no time. this time I admit I looked on his facebook page after he posted something stupid on my post. I found all the mockery of the church and of Christians (the Indiana law thingy) and couldn't let his lies and blasphemy just sit there. I entered in of my own will. I probably got what I deserved for going in there. 

[omegaseamaster75]

This is all good stuff. Problem is that that these guys KNOW all this. They were raised LDS. But they still rant against Elder Perry using the words "counterfeit relationships", they rant against Joseph Smith, they accuse LDS parents of driving their kids to suicide. It just goes on and on. Here's an example:

 

(Friend posts picture of two gay dads - not himself, just someone he knows- with their dressed to the nines twin 6 yr old boys and baby girl-  a beautiful picture which I acknowledged.)

 

My response:  This family is beautiful. The men have done great acts of service and love. (apparently built schools in Africa) But there is an essential element missing. Its painfully absent in this lovely picture. 

Your attitude of superiority and holier than thou-ness reeks in your comment.  I am not surprised you got jumped on. Comments like this (yours) are why people have the ideas about our faith that they do.

 

You clearly don't approve which is fine but FB is not the forum for stating your disapproval. 

[sxfritz]

I think it a futile effort. You should stand strong and give your objection to their treatment of your faith, but I think arguments are futile against them. I, for one, long ago tired of trying to defend their rights. I thought it right to defend them as people deserving dignity - and I still treat them that way myself, but I no longer tolerate their activism. I think they have too much voice and to argue with them only gives them more voice. When a 2% population gathers a 50% voice, I no longer believe they are getting the short end. I'm just tired of it all. Make it go away.

[carlimac]

Your attitude of superiority and holier than thou-ness reeks in your comment.  I am not surprised you got jumped on. Comments like this (yours) are why people have the ideas about our faith that they do.

 

You clearly don't approve which is fine but FB is not the forum for stating your disapproval. 

 

So it's OK for them to put stuff on facebook belittling the church and general authorities but it's not OK for us to call them on it? Posting this picture was in the whole context of his rant against Elder Perry and he and his friends making false and ugly accusations about Joseph Smith and polygamy.  I'm sorry but if these guys can dish it out they must be able to handle another point of view. I'm not going to treat these guys with kid gloves. 

 

Oh and I wouldn't have expected kinder response from you. Speaking of reeking of  holier than thou-ness. Ish!

Edited April 8, 2015 by carlimac

[omegaseamaster75]

So it's OK for them to put stuff on facebook belittling the church and general authorities but it's not OK for us to call them on it? Posting this picture was in the whole context of his rant against Elder Perry and he and his friends making false and ugly accusations about Joseph Smith and polygamy.  I'm sorry but if these guys can dish it out they must be able to handle another point of view. I'm not going to treat these guys with kid gloves. 

 

 

 

you didn't provide the context in the snippet of back and forth that you provided, so I went with what I had to work with.

 

All the same why engage? to what end?

[omegaseamaster75]

 

Oh and I wouldn't have expected kinder response from you. Speaking of reeking of  holier than thou-ness. Ish!

if the shoe fits.....

[carlimac]

you didn't provide the context in the snippet of back and forth that you provided, so I went with what I had to work with.

 

All the same why engage? to what end?

 

To defend Jesus Christ. This guy even puts sacrilegious memes up about the Savior. He has family and many many friends who are LDS or Christian. His posts are hurtful. I have him blocked now so that I don't have to see it.