Matt. 16: 17-18

[askandanswer]

(New Testament | Matthew 16:17 - 18)

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

Does the apostasy suggest that the gates of hell did prevail against revelation and the church? It certainly appears that something prevailed because both revelation and the church pretty much disappeared for more than a thousand years not long after Christ made this statement. 

[Crypto]

The work of God can not be over come, Even with up's and downs along the journey in the end when all is done will the church will prevail.

[askandanswer]

The work of God can not be over come, Even with up's and downs along the journey in the end when all is done will the church will prevail.

 

Certainly in the end, we all know who/what will prevail. But assuming a temporal existence for the earth of 6,000 years, for the church to be absent for anywhere between 1/6 and 1/4 of that time, it certainly sounds as if during that time, contrary to what Christ may have taught in Matthew 16, the church was not prevailing.  

[skalenfehl]

The Bible is filled with symbolism, allegory, types and shadows. Christ's words were often multi-layered with meaning. I believe Christ referred to revelation and not Peter, when he referred to "this rock." Christ used Peter's name (Cephas/stone), to represent the manner in which Christ's church functions. It has always been this way since Adam's day. As for the gates of hell not prevailing, I believe Christ is not referring to temporary setbacks. Jacob 5 is clear evidence that the Lord is in charge and that pruning, dunging, digging, hewing, burning, etc is a part of growth when decay is an inevitable part of the process. When Christ established His church, He did it to usher in the times of the Gentiles. Peter and the others were to go out into the world. The tribes of Israel were scattered, the Jews about to be destroyed and also scattered and the process for the fullness of the gospel to be established was to be a long, painful pruning and gathering process. 

Edited April 11, 2015 by skalenfehl

[Jane_Doe]

(New Testament | Matthew 16:17 - 18)

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

Does the apostasy suggest that the gates of hell did prevail against revelation and the church? It certainly appears that something prevailed because both revelation and the church pretty much disappeared for more than a thousand years not long after Christ made this statement. 

 

Not at all!  God's church can never be vanquished.  Even if all the leaders and people of the world abadon His church and loose their way, the church still comes back and is a light of the world.  And in the Final Day, God's kingdom will dramatically triumph, and not the gates of hell.

[Guest]

You have to take the verses before it to get a more complete understanding.

 

13 ¶When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

Okay, so here you see Jesus asking his apostles, who do people say I am?  And they answered to the effect that they believe he is one of the prophets.  So then he asked them, who do YOU say that I am?  And it was Simon who replied that Jesus is the Son of God.  Jesus then told Simon that this revelation that Jesus is the Son of God is given to Simon from God.  And that this revelation that Jesus is the Son of God given to Simon qualified him to receive the keys as the head of the Church and his name changed to Peter.  The revelation given to Peter is the rock that the Church will be built upon and the gates of hell cannot prevail against it.

 

Now, the word hell can mean suffering/misery or death.  But, in this particular usage where hell has a gate, it points to a place or a state of being.  Death here is spirit prison.  Now, a gate has only one function - to swing open to gain entrance or swing shut to bar from entrance.  A gate cannot go and fight somebody.  So, when it says the gates of hell cannot prevail against it... then it means it cannot bar "it" from entrance.  Now, what is "it"?  It here is the revelation that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

So, putting all that together, we have:

 

The revelation that Jesus is the Son of God is the foundation of the Church.  This revelation does not come from any other source but from God.  Peter, who received this revelation from God, received the keys to lead the Church to proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God that others may also seek and receive this revelation from God.  Nothing can prevent people from receiving this revelation - not even death.  Therefore, people who are in spirit prison who have not received this revelation before entering spirit prison can still receive this revelation.  This includes Gentiles and all the people who have died before Christ's atoning sacrifice. 

 

This passage is a foundation for the works for the dead.  Since death does not stop people from receiving this revelation, we do the works for the dead in the hope that those who died without this revelation would still receive it and take their place in God's plan for our salvation.

Edited April 11, 2015 by anatess

[askandanswer]

Okay, so here you see Jesus asking his apostles, who do people say I am?  And they answered to the effect that they believe he is one of the prophets.  So then he asked them, who do YOU say that I am?  And it was Simon who replied that Jesus is the Son of God.  Jesus then told Simon that this revelation that Jesus is the Son of God is given to Simon from God.  And that this revelation that Jesus is the Son of God given to Simon qualified him to receive the keys as the head of the Church and his name changed to Peter.  The revelation given to Peter is the rock that the Church will be built upon and the gates of hell cannot prevail against it.

 

Now, the word hell can mean suffering/misery or death.  But, in this particular usage where hell has a gate, it points to a place or a state of being.  Death here is spirit prison.  Now, a gate has only one function - to swing open to gain entrance or swing shut to bar from entrance.  A gate cannot go and fight somebody.  So, when it says the gates of hell cannot prevail against it... then it means it cannot bar "it" from entrance.  Now, what is "it"?  It here is the revelation that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

So, putting all that together, we have:

 

The revelation that Jesus is the Son of God is the foundation of the Church.  This revelation does not come from any other source but from God.  Peter, who received this revelation from God, received the keys to lead the Church to proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God that others may also seek and receive this revelation from God.  Nothing can prevent people from receiving this revelation - not even death.  Therefore, people who are in spirit prison who have not received this revelation before entering spirit prison can still receive this revelation.  This includes Gentiles and all the people who have died before Christ's atoning sacrifice. 

 

This passage is a foundation for the works for the dead.  Since death does not stop people from receiving this revelation, we do the works for the dead in the hope that those who died without this revelation would still receive it and take their place in God's plan for our salvation.

 

This answer has some surprising similarities to the answer my Sunday School teacher gave when I asked this question in class last week. He suggested that in these verses, the English word hell comes from the word Hades which he said was a Greek word referring to the place where spirits go while their body is dead. He pointed out that it was a revelation recorded by Peter in 1 Peter 3:19, and elaborated on by Joseph F Smith that made known the fact that the gospel was being preached in hell, and it was revelation received by Joseph Smith that initiated the work by which the dead can be saved, and thus brought back from Hades. In that sense, the gates of Hell could not prevail against those spirits, or could no longer hold them back from leaving Hell. Your response adds to this by suggesting that even those spirits within Hell can receive the revelation that Jesus is the Christ, and it is the revelation and acceptance of this knowledge than can free them from hell. I was a bit uncertain about my Sunday School teacher’s response last week but coupled with your answer, and having thought through both his and your answer, things are clearer now. The error that led to my misunderstanding of these verses was my assumption that the phrase “gates of hell” was referring to the forces of Satan in attacking and overcoming the church, which is indeed what happened, whereas it appears that this phrase refers to an actual place – the unpleasant side of the spirit world.

 

An interesting conclusion arising from this, which should have been obvious, but which I had not thought of before, is that a person, even a person who lived during a period of apostasy, can receive a very specific type of revelation – that Jesus is the Christ – independently of the existence of the church. 

[Crypto]

Certainly in the end, we all know who/what will prevail. But assuming a temporal existence for the earth of 6,000 years, for the church to be absent for anywhere between 1/6 and 1/4 of that time, it certainly sounds as if during that time, contrary to what Christ may have taught in Matthew 16, the church was not prevailing.  

It's a matter of perspective, when looking at the whole 1/4 or 1/6 is insignificant. When looking at it in part it becomes much more significant. Which perspective do you think he was coming from?

Even with a loss, Christ's church still had a very very profound impact on human civilization, any move in the right direction is progress.

[mist5]

I don't believe that the scripture is referring only to the church on the earth. The church is made up of people that have testimonies of the Savior, and hell with never have power over those people.  Even if there is no church currently on the earth, there are still people that have converted to the gospel that live on in heaven, and the work continues there as well.  Hell has no power over these people no matter how the church fairs on the earth.

[Blackmarch]

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Edited April 13, 2015 by Blackmarch

[ether-ore]

(New Testament | Matthew 16:17 - 18)

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

Does the apostasy suggest that the gates of hell did prevail against revelation and the church? It certainly appears that something prevailed because both revelation and the church pretty much disappeared for more than a thousand years not long after Christ made this statement. 

I think the problem here is with the definition of the "church".  The church are those people (living or dead) who have accepted the testimony of Jesus Christ just as Peter did.  The Holy Ghost bore witness to them that the gospel was true and that Jesus is the Christ.  The gates of hell will never prevail against that or them.  This says nothing about the gates of hell not prevailing against apostates.

[Average Joe]

"Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (Matt 27:50-53).

 

The gates of hell did not prevail (keep in the righteous dead) during the time of the apostles.

 

see also: 1 Peter 3:18-20 & 1 Cor. 15:29

 

That there was a season of apostasy after the death of the apostles and the destruction of the Nephites means little since the church has been restored...and in order for "the church" to be restored we must understand the church. As it explains in D&C 107:

 

4 But out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of his name, they, the church, in ancient days, called that priesthood after Melchizedek, or the Melchizedek Priesthood.

 

5 All other authorities or offices in the church are appendages to this [Melchizedek] priesthood.

 

6 But there are two divisions or grand heads—one is the Melchizedek Priesthood, and the other is the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood.

 

 7 The office of an elder comes under the priesthood of Melchizedek.

 

 8 The Melchizedek Priesthood holds the right of presidency, and has power and authority over all the offices in the church in all ages of the world, to administer in spiritual things.

 

 9 The Presidency of the High Priesthood, after the order of Melchizedek, have a right to officiate in all the offices in the church.

 

10 High priests after the order of the Melchizedek Priesthood have a right to officiate in their own standing, under the direction of the presidency, in administering spiritual things, and also in the office of an elder, priest (of the Levitical order), teacher, deacon, and member.

 

18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—

 

So did the gates of hell prevail against the church/Melchizedek Priesthood to keep the righteous dead in? No. Peter, James and John appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and restored the Melchizedek Priesthood, and Joseph Smith restored the church as in the times of Peter. 

 

 

[askandanswer]

 

That there was a season of apostasy after the death of the apostles and the destruction of the Nephites means little since the church has been restored...

 

 I think that the hundreds of millions, or maybe even billions, who were born, lived and died during the almost 1,500 hundred years when the church was not on the earth might not agree that the period of apostasy "means little."

[Average Joe]

 I think that the hundreds of millions, or maybe even billions, who were born, lived and died during the almost 1,500 hundred years when the church was not on the earth might not agree that the period of apostasy "means little."

 

Guess what? They (like all of us one day will) died. Guess what else, Millions, maybe billions never heard the gospel even when the church/priesthood has been on the earth. You know what else? They died too.

 

If a day is a thousand years to God then mortality is the twinkling of an eye.

 

Guess what else, through the atonement of Christ children under 8 years old are saved in Christ, all those who were unaccountable in life are saved in Christ, and all the those who would have accepted the gospel if they had been permitted to receive it and live it faithfully in mortality would be saved.

 

Joseph Smith saw a vision of the future in which his parents, who were still alive at the time were in Heaven with Alvin (his older brother who had died previous to the vision). He was puzzled that Alvin could receive the highest level of exaltation without having been baptized, but in the vision, he was assured that those who died faithful would be rewarded with exaltation. 

 

There are a few million LDS and a few billion non-members in the world today. The greatest missionary work has always taken place on the other side of the veil. Temple work will the great work of the millennium here on earth.

 

In that respect I think your comment is very short sighted. God's plan foreknew and planned for the apostasies of this world.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Average Joe