How do you treat homosexuals?


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While I agree that we should be who we are meant to be. There are many people in the world who do not believe what we believe. When these people are ridiculed for their beliefs it leads to depression, and as we have seen, even suicide. It is hard to change when you are depressed or dead! In my opinion, you accept who a person is... even if that is an alcoholic. I am not saying "celebrate." However, I am saying that we need to accept the decisions of other people. We believe that all men are free to worship how, where, and what they may. People choose to worship many things by their actions. We believe that right is protected and should be respected. In conference, we have heard many times that sometimes all you can do is be present and wait. So, yes, we accept and celebrate the person with all of their weaknesses. Because if we don't, they will not listen to us when the time is right, because we will have prevented the right time from happening by our indifference or judgment. Personally, I tire of people talking about "condoning" sin. I've seen posts asking about whether you go to a work party or wedding where alcohol is served or do you attend a wedding of a homosexual couple. Jesus ate with the publicans and the sinners. Why should you be any different? Look forward to your responses. 

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While I agree that we should be who we are meant to be. There are many people in the world who do not believe what we believe. When these people are ridiculed for their beliefs it leads to depression, and as we have seen, even suicide. It is hard to change when you are depressed or dead! In my opinion, you accept who a person is... even if that is an alcoholic. I am not saying "celebrate." However, I am saying that we need to accept the decisions of other people. We believe that all men are free to worship how, where, and what they may. People choose to worship many things by their actions. We believe that right is protected and should be respected. In conference, we have heard many times that sometimes all you can do is be present and wait. So, yes, we accept and celebrate the person with all of their weaknesses. Because if we don't, they will not listen to us when the time is right, because we will have prevented the right time from happening by our indifference or judgment. Personally, I tire of people talking about "condoning" sin. I've seen posts asking about whether you go to a work party or wedding where alcohol is served or do you attend a wedding of a homosexual couple. Jesus ate with the publicans and the sinners. Why should you be any different? Look forward to your responses.

Okay... as the entire thread has shown, we LDS folks pretty much take the AoF to heart and practice it. It's taught in primary, it's taught in scouts, it's taught in Seminary, it's taught in Gospel Doctrine, it's taught in Priesthood and RS... and firesides and general conferences, etc. etc. etc. That's a given.

What I was saying is... when you tell somebody BE WHO YOU ARE. That only works if they know who they are. If what they think they are is an alcoholic, then that advice goes to the gutter.

Now, of course, WHO I AM is a child of God. So, of course, if I'm being who I am then I wouldn't do whatever it is you think people do that causes homosexuals to kill themselves. If they kill themselves because the LDS Church and consequently its members teach that it is a sin to have sex without marriage and that marriage is only between opposite genders, it's not on my head but on them. There's really nothing I can do about that.

Edited by anatess
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I'm so glad to hear this.   :)  But of course it doesn't say how you treat those of us who are vertically challenged. :P

I've been married to one for 30 years and I adore her shortness. She often tells of what a terrible handicap it is - if people only knew. Everything about her tells me she's six feet tall. I didn't even realize she was short until I brought her home and my mother told me. Then it was like - 'oh, yeah, you're right'. I often forget until I see her talking to a group of men and she's having to stare upward.  She loves when we go to Peru and everyone is at the same height and she never hears comments about her size. 

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Guest teamfamilywall

Resident Alien, I agree with what you were saying. My comment wasn't directed toward your comment. I agree that many people have no idea who they are. That is why the Gospel is so appealing to so many when the missionaries arrive with answers to that question!

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Be who you  are?  What if you are an alcoholic or drug addict?  Then we should "celebrate" that and "support you" in that?  I don't think so.

 

 

 

I hear what you're saying about celebrating such things, however: Alcoholics and drug addicts do indeed need love and support.  No scare quotes necessary.  Ever been to a 12 step meeting?  Do you have any family members or friends who struggle with stuff like that?  You could probably learn a lot about what support looks like and what it doesn't from them.

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Everyone needs a generic "love and support". But it's deceptive to simply throw out "love and support" as an end-all interaction with people. Alcoholics, etc., need support...but not support in destroying their lives, getting drunk, falling off the wagon, etc. More over, sometimes support means tough love. Sometimes love means speaking or acting in a hard way for the ultimate benefit of those we love.

 

When these people are ridiculed for their beliefs 

 

I'm fairly positive that you're not going to find anyone here supportive of the idea of ridiculing others for their beliefs.

 

I am not saying "celebrate." ..... So, yes, we accept and celebrate the person with all of their weaknesses. 

 

Wait...which is it?

 

We believe that right is protected and should be respected.  

 

Yes...but we don't believe that others should be allowed to willy-nilly go about hurting others with their beliefs or actions. We also, very clearly and obviously, retain the right to continue to strive to convince those who "worship" something that we feel is mistaken that they are in the wrong.

 

I've seen posts asking about whether you go to a work party or wedding where alcohol is served or do you attend a wedding of a homosexual couple. Jesus ate with the publicans and the sinners. Why should you be any different? Look forward to your responses. 

 

Once again, there is an inherent level of deceit in implying something so narrow from something so broad. If we get into the details of what Jesus did and said when he "ate" with the publicans and sinners, we'll quickly note that he did and said things that would get him called an intolerant, hateful bigot, in our culture, and even in His culture, ultimately got Him killed. Jesus preached the truth, boldly and without apology. He didn't just "hang out" with the publicans and sinners waiting for the day when they would be willing to listen to Him.

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He didn't just "hang out" with the publicans and sinners waiting for the day when they would be willing to listen to Him.

 

Hi The Folk Prophet. I hope you are well! :)

 

I think Jesus did hang out. And if he did hang out he must have hung out with people. I'm sure we are all sinners and I think we are all publicans too. So, if Jesus hung out with people, he hung out with publicans and sinners.

 

That's my reasoning.

 

Interestingly Matthew, one of the first apostles of Jesus Christ, was a publican before he was converted. In fact it appears that many of the early disciples of Jesus were publicans because they were rejected by the ruling Jewish class and essentially considered apostates.

 

-Finrock

 

Reference

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZHUPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA428&lpg=PA428&dq=publicans+as+early+disciples+of+Jesus+Christ&source=bl&ots=Y_yZkgK0Ud&sig=jRgKLm6pdggje8XPvTxEVoCynZg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3OY3VbzeCebksASgm4HgAQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=publicans%20as%20early%20disciples%20of%20Jesus%20Christ&f=false

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Guest MormonGator

Hi The Folk Prophet. I hope you are well! :)

 

I think Jesus did hang out. And if he did hang out he must have hung out with people. I'm sure we are all sinners and I think we are all publicans too. So, if Jesus hung out with people, he hung out with publicans and sinners.

 

That's my reasoning.

 

Interestingly Matthew, one of the first apostles of Jesus Christ, was a publican before he was converted. In fact it appears that many of the early disciples of Jesus were publicans because they were rejected by the ruling Jewish class and essentially considered apostates.

 

-Finrock

 

Reference

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZHUPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA428&lpg=PA428&dq=publicans+as+early+disciples+of+Jesus+Christ&source=bl&ots=Y_yZkgK0Ud&sig=jRgKLm6pdggje8XPvTxEVoCynZg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3OY3VbzeCebksASgm4HgAQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=publicans%20as%20early%20disciples%20of%20Jesus%20Christ&f=false

He did hang out with the tax collectors, prostitutes, and other sinners. 

 

Unfortunately, what is often forgotten when people say "Christ hung out with sinners" is that is Christ added "Go thy way, and sin no more"  While I agree homosexuals should be treated like everyone else with no exception. I am not sure this argument works. 

 

Yes, I'm as bad a sinner as everyone else so I'm not claiming I'm better than anyone. 

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I treat my nephew and husband's best friend just like everyone else. I think equality is important, meaning, treating people as equals and not better or worse.

When I first started in nursing, one of my first jobs was to caretake a couple individuals with special needs, specifically, downs and retardation. One man was also in a wheelchair. I was just an aide at the time and had taken all these courses in how to work with "special needs" individuals. In one of the courses, we were taught to kneel down when talking to someone in a wheelchair. It's not a bad idea but upon doing this with my one patient who was wheelchair bound, he was very put off, and told me bluntly not to treat him like a child. From that point on, I talk to folks in wheelchairs just like everyone else. If they're hard of hearing, I speak slower and louder, but otherwise I think eye contact is enough.

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Hi The Folk Prophet. I hope you are well! :)

 

I think Jesus did hang out. And if he did hang out he must have hung out with people. I'm sure we are all sinners and I think we are all publicans too. So, if Jesus hung out with people, he hung out with publicans and sinners.

 

That's my reasoning.

 

We could, of course, argue back and forth based on this as to what we actually mean by "hang out", but as I suspect my meaning is actually clear and that this response is really just semantically arguing things to be argumentative, I believe I'll leave it be beyond this.

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He did hang out with the tax collectors, prostitutes, and other sinners. 

 

Once again, I think your meaning of "hang out" is decidedly different than what I meant. Moreover, I think it probably quite valid to point out the difference between who Jesus "hung out" with and who, in contrast, "hung out" with Jesus. Big difference, actually. 

 

It is decidedly dishonest to claim Jesus just "hung out" with prostitutes. It's a half-truth that doesn't tell the complete story. What is the complete story? A few examples.

 

Jesus sat down to eat at a man's house and a woman, who was a "sinner", hearing he was there came to him and washed his hair and feet. Not exactly the same as going out to "hang" with her. Moreover, Jesus forgave her her sins. Whereas He has stated, and other scriptural sources teach, that he only forgives repentant sinners, what really happened here is Jesus was "hanging" (an inaccurate description of what occurred) with a repentant sinner.

 

What about the tax collector story? (Note, the implication here, of course, is corrupt tax collector). The tax collector invited Jesus to his home to explain to him how he had given half his goods to the poor and paid back anyone he'd cheated four fold, to which Jesus told him salvation was come to his house. Once again, hardly Jesus just hanging out with the unrepentant sinners idea some would like us to believe. 

 

And of course there's the adulterous woman brought to Him to be stoned where He wrote in the dirt and then told her to go her way and sin no more. Hardly "hanging out".

 

And then, of course, there's most famous justification, Mark 2:15-17 (here included):

 

15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

 

16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

 

17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

Once again, we see Jesus going somewhere to eat and a crowd following him, among which were some sinners. Note the distinct difference between Jesus going and hanging out with them and them following and thereby hanging out with him. And what was Jesus's reason for doing so? Verse 17 spells it out. To call them to repentance. Hardly just buddies sitting around playing video games, going to dance clubs, and/or whatever your individual ideas of "hanging out" are.

 

It should also well be noted that nowhere are these "sinners" literally defined as "prostitutes".

 

It is clear that Jesus didn't turn His nose up at sinners, be they prostitutes or not. But it is also clear that every encounter He had with them was used to teach, call to repentance, and generally go about doing that which He came to earth to do, and set the example for us to do. He did not just "hang out" in any scriptural example -- and any supposition that He did is merely that.

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Guest teamfamilywall

Luke 19:1-7 is an example of Christ choosing to spend time with a publican that others perceived to be a sinner. As you said, we could argue all day. There are many differing perspectives on the subject.

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Luke 19:1-7 is an example of Christ choosing to spend time with a publican that others perceived to be a sinner.

 

I already mentioned this story and addressed it. This man was repentant, humble, contrite, and anxious for the Savior's engagement -- hardly a "sinner", regardless of people's perception.

 

There are many differing perspectives on the subject.

 

Perspectives do not truth make. And the fact that people use these stories to justify being certain places and "hanging out" with certain people is not truth. It's taking a simple insubstantial meme, a la "Jesus hung out with and prostitutes", and using it to justify things that are simply not justifiable.

 

Now I'm not saying by this that we shouldn't ever be friends with sinners. But I am questioning the "shut up until they're ready" approach. I am questioning the "accept them as they are" idea. I am denying the "celebrate who they are" concept. And I flatly reject that respecting someone's right to believe as they want means we cannot speak against it -- even if it offends them sometimes.

 

Now, by saying I'm questioning some of these things, I don't mean to say either that we should never, for example, shut up until they're ready. Certainly that is a good course sometimes. What I challenge is that it is the only or best way, or even the most commonly successful means of reaching others. Or, more-so, that if we aren't doing this that we have cause to change and/or repent.

 

I find this trend of "everybody who wants to preach repentance should just shut up until we're ready" trend nothing but a tool of Satan that has pervaded the political sensibilities of our society and is doing nothing more than multiplying the evil influence at large in the world.

 

We have been commanded to declare repentance unto this generation. Plain. Simple. Direct. And, I might add by way of quote: 

 

D&C 24:12

And at all times, and in all places, he shall open his mouth and declare my gospel as with the voice of a trump, both day and night.

 

D&C 60:2

But with some I am not well pleased, for they will not open their mouths, but they hide the talent which I have given unto them, because of the fear of man. Wo unto such, for mine anger is kindled against them.

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Guest teamfamilywall

As you say, perspectives don't mean truth. Ultimately what you interpret and what I interpret from the scriptures are going to be very different and they are perspectives. Your statements sounds as though your interpretation is THE truth. Interpretations abound. I respect your position and see where you are coming from. I also don't agree 100%. I do agree that we should not use the "hanging out" to justify being places we shouldn't. But that is not the subject at hand. We are mostly talking about being friends with people, going to normal social events with people. For example, going to a wedding of someone who is gay. If we don't support our friends and family members, they will not turn to us when they are ready. I agree that you don't go to a strip-joint because Christ "hung out" with prostitutes. In my opinion, that is a huge exaggeration of the idea and I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Although there are probably a minority who do. 

 

Christ was always willing to leave the 99 to go after the 1. And that means being with them. And even if sinners came to Christ, he could have left, but he didn't. His mission was to heal the sick (physically and spiritually) which requires being in their presence. And yes, that was a choice.

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Guest teamfamilywall

I agree as well that the "shut up and wait" approach is not the only option. That is also not what I am suggesting. However, when invitations have been made and rejected, that is your time to wait until prompted again to speak with them. And by wait, I mean be with them and support them and accept where they are in life. You certainly don't have to agree. I've appreciated hearing your perspective. I'm sure if we continue chatting we will learn that we actually share similar beliefs, but we just use terms differently. We have both used terms that come across as speaking at the extremes, which is probably not where either of us sit in reality.

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We could, of course, argue back and forth based on this as to what we actually mean by "hang out", but as I suspect my meaning is actually clear and that this response is really just semantically arguing things to be argumentative, I believe I'll leave it be beyond this.

 

By hang-out, I mean, being with people, talking to them, being interested in them, and spending time with them. If you mean something else then your meaning is not clear to me. You are mistaken with your other assumption too; I don't argue things just to be argumentative. You don't need to assume otherwise. I simply will not post something if I am not sincere or to purposefully be antagonistic.

 

-Finrock

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We are mostly talking about...going to normal social events with people. For example, going to a wedding of someone who is gay. 

 

It is incredibly sad to me that we've come so far as to think of a gay wedding as a "normal" social event.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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However, when invitations have been made and rejected, that is your time to wait until prompted again to speak with them.

 

I disagree with this as a universal approach as well. This may be the right thing. It also may not. Depends on the person. Depends on my/your personality related to theirs. Depends on the guidance of the Spirit. Depends on a myriad of factors.

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