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Giuseppe
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The "meat" that babes are not ready for is, imho, related to difficult to practice teachings, not difficult to believe. Most Christian teaching, regardless of sect, is easily UNDERSTOOD. After all, the New International Version of the Bible is written at a 7th grade reading level (The Good News Version at 5th grade).

On a similar note, "stumbling blocks" are not particular teachings either. Rather, Scriptures warns us (people) not to be stumbling blocks. We can do so by boorishness, by burdening fellow believers with personal convictions about faith practice, by hypocrisy, or, sometimes by endulging in a personal freedom that may bring temptation to others.

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Guest Yediyd

The "meat" that babes are not ready for is, imho, related to difficult to practice teachings, not difficult to believe. Most Christian teaching, regardless of sect, is easily UNDERSTOOD. After all, the New International Version of the Bible is written at a 7th grade reading level (The Good News Version at 5th grade).

On a similar note, "stumbling blocks" are not particular teachings either. Rather, Scriptures warns us (people) not to be stumbling blocks. We can do so by boorishness, by burdening fellow believers with personal convictions about faith practice, by hypocrisy, or, sometimes by endulging in a personal freedom that may bring temptation to others.

Yeah, I know about indulging in some of them personal freedoms! <_<

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Guest Yediyd
Conviction? :huh::blush::unsure: [/quoteI don't know what you are talking about, T, but I was referring to the freedom my father took with little girls. :(
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In the words of the late Davis Bitton: "I do not have a testimony of the history of the church."

As a passionate amateur Mormon historian, I really disliked Davis Bitton, I found his comments presumptuous and manipulative.

I find the recent switch to “One’s testimony does not rest on the history of the Church,“ to be similar to an annoying PR campaign.

The fact is, if you do not believe the history of the Church, you do not have a testimony! And this is a switch, because in the past, many meetings were devoted to the history of the Church.

Fort example, all of the following are the history of the Church:

The First Vision , the Angel Moroni appearing to Joseph three times in one night and once the next morning, Joseph returning to the Hill Cumorah four (?) times to get the golden plates, Joseph translating the plates, the publication of the Book of Mormon, the organization of the Church of Christ, Joseph Smith’s revelations, Joseph Smith’s prophecies, the restoration of the priesthood, massive conversions, Mormon persecutions, settling and leaving Kirtland, settling and leaving Missouri, Haun’s Mill massacre, settling and leaving Nauvoo, Kirtland and Nauvoo temple, Joseph’s polygamy, the organization of the Relief Society, King Follet discourse, Joseph and Hyrum’s murder, the pioneer trek into the Salt Lake Valley, Brigham entering the Salt Lake valley on July 24 and saying ‘This is the right place,“ Brigham becoming president of the church, polygamy in Utah, converts using handcarts to reach Utah, women’s suffrage in Utah, the Utah war, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the Blackhawk war (more people killed than in the MMM), the 1890 Manifesto, 1904 Manifesto, the Salt Lake Temple, the “History of the Church” written after Joseph’s murder, but in his name, the growth of the Church, the 1978 Revelation allowing all worth males the priesthood , and the “Proclamation of the Family.”

Obviously, this list just covers the surface and should be 10 times as long as it is.

In addition, according to Joseph, even the Lord insisted the history of the Church was important, as Joseph received a revelation in 1831, wherein John Whitmer, one of the eight witnesses to the Book of Mormon, was to keep a history of the Church:

"Behold, it is expedient in me that my servant John should write and keep a regular history, and assist you, my servant Joseph, in transcribing all things which shall be given you, until he is called to further duties.. . . .

And again, I say unto you that it shall be appointed unto him to keep the church record and history continually; for Oliver Cowdery I have appointed to another office." (Doctrine and Covenants Sec. 47: 1-4)

So, this new emphasis to dismiss the history of the Church, and it is new, appalls me. In my opinion, it is a direct result of the easy accessibility of the historical truths, warts and all, from the internet.

Previously, members, converts and investigators relied on the whitewashed versions of Church history they were taught, and had no idea there might be more to the story. Now, as happened to Yediyd, they come across truths that are hard to swallow from sources on the internet that are not friendly, and it is painful.

Even though I am no longer a believer, I love the Church’s history, and hate to see anyone lost their testimony over it. I have long advocated that the Church teach these harder truths to its members in age-appropriate classes, such as seminary and institute.

I understand that with investigators it’s a more difficult question. I understand the “milk before meat” concept. I am conflicted, because just as Yediyd has demonstrated, she feels betrayed that at the beginning she was not told some of these harder truths. But ultimately, it did not matter because she did find her testimony.

I do believe, for example, that investigators should be told about Joseph’s polygamy. A number of times I’ve seen converts get hit with that information and it sends them reeling. I know twp people who have left the church over this.

And I know believers, even here, will say they didn’t have a testimony to begin with if that “minor thing” made them leave. But that is too simplistic, and demeans what was a very painful experience for them, which could have been avoided.

Anyway, it certainly is the Church’s choice to decide how to handle its history. But again, church members are disingenuous when they say “I don’t have a testimony of the Church’s history.

The Church IS its history. There is no separating one from the other.

Elphaba

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Guest Yediyd
<div class='quotemain'>I love this church, and I am not going to let a few "bumps" change my mind...I am just ready to sink my teeth into some meat, now.

If you're looking for some meat, I suggest examining the Book of Abraham issue. Start by reading its entry on Wikipedia.org:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_abraham

I got plenty of your so called "meat" when I went over to your Mormon disscussions forum and read you guys mocking me...thak you , but no thank you...that place is Satan's playground and you are one of his cronies! :angry2:

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The truth is that soon or later you will now it and I hope it will not be too late.

For now why you and your friends don't do something more positive instead of attacking? Why you don' t say good things about your religion instead of attacking other people's religion? Show me the goodness of your religion by posting information about your religion and convert me unless your religion, if you have one, is so poor that you don't have anything interesting to say about it

You should learn that attacking someone else religion doesn't really convert. And in fact, based on your attitude I am already thinking that this is what your religion teaches you: attacking others instead of making the world a better place. Or perhaps you religion is good but you don't understand it.

Have a nice day.

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Guest Yediyd

The truth is that soon or later you will now it and I hope it will not be too late.

For now why you and your friends don't do something more positive instead of attacking? Why you don' t say good things about your religion instead of attacking other people's religion? Show me the goodness of your religion by posting information about your religion and convert me unless your religion, if you have one, is so poor that you don't have anything interesting to say about it

You should learn that attacking someone else religion doesn't really convert. And in fact, based on your attitude I am already thinking that this is what your religion teaches you: attacking others instead of making the world a better place. Or perhaps you religion is good but you don't understand it.

Have a nice day.

The true test of ones religion is the type of person that it makes him. These people rocked my faith, then went "home" to their lair and Danced around gleefully mocking me and Laughing about the "fun" they had on ldsforums!! Some fun!! Taring down my faith was FUN? I see the wolf for what he is and I am now STRONGER in my faith for the EXPIERIANCE!!!! The "fun" they had at my expense backfired and the lord used it for good...just as Joseph said to his brothers...in Gen 50:20 You ment it for bad, but G-d ment it for good...(my paraphrase)
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Show me the goodness of your religion by posting information about your religion and convert me unless your religion, if you have one, is so poor that you don't have anything interesting to say about it

...Or perhaps you religion is good but you don't understand it.

NEWS FLASH: Dr. Shades self-identifies as an AGNOSTIC, which probably means he has no affiliation with an organized religion. B)

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My comment was for many others also, especially Mr. Bond. Unfortunately there are lots of evangelicals who work harder than Dr. Shades...However, Dr. Shades could create his own agnostic forum.

<div class='quotemain'>

Show me the goodness of your religion by posting information about your religion and convert me unless your religion, if you have one, is so poor that you don't have anything interesting to say about it

...Or perhaps you religion is good but you don't understand it.

NEWS FLASH: Dr. Shades self-identifies as an AGNOSTIC, which probably means he has no affiliation with an organized religion. B)

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My comment was for many others also, especially Mr. Bond. Unfortunately there are lots of evangelicals who work harder than Dr. Shades...However, Dr. Shades could create his own agnostic forum.

When evangelicals post "anti-LDS" materials, it is indeed, with the hopes of winning a few converts. When athiests/agnostics/free thinkers do so, it is often simply for intellectual/philosophical debate.

IMHO, the Holy Ghost does the converting. My job is to proclaim the Good News. And, we probably both agree with St. Francis of Assisi, who said, "Use words...if necessary." :sparklygrin:

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NEWS FLASH: Dr. Shades self-identifies as an AGNOSTIC, which probably means he has no affiliation with an organized religion. B)

If Dr. Shades is the same Dr. Shades from all over the LDS MB circuit, than he's a good guy in my books. He's a familiar "Username" and I like reading his thoughts and opinions. It's nice seeing familiar "names" that I don't normally see anymore.

M.

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<div class='quotemain'>I love this church, and I am not going to let a few "bumps" change my mind...I am just ready to sink my teeth into some meat, now.

If you're looking for some meat, I suggest examining the Book of Abraham issue. Start by reading its entry on Wikipedia.org:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_abraham

hhhmmm....why go there and read it.....just get your own copy..... :hmmm:

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<div class='quotemain'> But if things are "hidden" then it is much more than other religions. Christianity is pretty straight forward-Christ and him crucified. No falling on "milk before meat" as it's laid out in that sense.

We teach that too, and we teach it first. Our church is founded upon Christ.

It is best to keep your eye on the Christian message the Church presents. Unfortunately Yediyd, there are those on the internet who are clamoring to present you with unflattering information about the LDS Church because they perceive that you are vulnerable. Shame on them. Take things at your own speed regarding any troubling information.

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Guest Yediyd

You know...I did go over to that Mormon discussions board...and I owe a few apologies...One guy was defending me...and the Bond guy was mocking and gleefully bragging about the trouble that he caused...but he was never rude to me. I was angry...not by what he said to me...but by the gloat fest I came across later in their form...apparently...the gloating was not aimed at me...Excluding the knuckle dragging cretin who calls himself Polygamy Porter...So, just to clarify...I realise that Bond was doing what he felt was right in warning me of the things that he perceives as the truth...he was never rude to me...My anger with him was in the gleeful gloating he did BEFORE he even ran across me, I was wrong in taking that personally and I openly apologize to you, Bond. Also..Dr Shades, thank you for the kind things you said...

I have had enough of this thread and conversation. This will be my last post on the matter.

Yediyd

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You know...I did go over to that Mormon discussions board...and I owe a few apologies...One guy was defending me...and the Bond guy was mocking and gleefully bragging about the trouble that he caused...but he was never rude to me. I was angry...not by what he said to me...but by the gloat fest I came across later in their form...apparently...the gloating was not aimed at me...Excluding the knuckle dragging cretin who calls himself Polygamy Porter...So, just to clarify...I realise that Bond was doing what he felt was right in warning me of the things that he perceives as the truth...he was never rude to me...My anger with him was in the gleeful gloating he did BEFORE he even ran across me, I was wrong in taking that personally and I openly apologize to you, Bond. Also..Dr Shades, thank you for the kind things you said...

I have had enough of this thread and conversation. This will be my last post on the matter.

Yediyd

over and out!!!!!.....LOL!!!!
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