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Giuseppe
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<div class='quotemain'>

Oh, don't sell yourself short. Your whole group looks pretty slimy from what I've seen. I went to your site and saw the thread where you were gloating about disrupting other lds boards and delighting in tearing down others' testimonies.

Oh cry me a river.....all I did when talking to the poster on ldsforums.com (yodiyd I believe was her name) was present some facts....if those facts tear down testimonies they just might be true. You want all the facts right....not just some of the facts?

As to delighting.....while I might delight in educating someone on the truth concerning someone's character, but delight in tearing down faith....no.

I'm not crying at all. I went to your website that you put in your profile. One of the top threads in there was the one where you and your friends were gloating about disrupting the other forum and seeing how long your tripe would stay up before you and it were banned. I'm not naive to your tactics. And yes, you guys WERE delighting in the evil that you perpetrated, no matter what you may say to deny it. You were gleefully destroying another person's faith. I didn't get to the first site in time to see what you wrote, but I did see the reaction on your home site, and it told me enough to know what went on.

And just so we're clear, I'm not against someone presenting facts. But the way your people present 'facts' and slant them to make the subject look worse than it is, is deceptive and wrong. You people are scum, there's no way around it. You delight in destroying the testimonies of LDS, it's what you do.

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Guest Doctor Steuss

<div class='quotemain'> Yed,

I am sorry Bond was able to get to you.

It wasn't the LDSFORUMS who did this to you it was a malicious member who joined that new site (bond).

I was foolish to let him get to me...I am still learning. I am a little put off by the fact that our leaders don't come outright with these things so we new members don't get blindsided with this information when we run into antis. I think the truth should be taught, the good, the bad, and the ugly...Noah was a drunkard, after all...he was still a prophet.

I hope you don't take offense to the following, but...

The "Church" and the "Leaders" aren't there to give history lessons. They are there for preaching the gospel. If you want the other stuff, there are plenty of books both published by the Church and by members that delve into the nitty-gritty. It all depends on what interests you. For me, the nitty-gritty, obscure, "colorful" and somewhat "controversial" aspects interest me. For my dad, he just cares about the gospel and nothing more (although I did convince him recently to start reading "Rough Stone Rolling"). I’m glad that the “Leaders” don’t get into everything. Three hours of church is enough to me (and I enjoy the thrill of discovery of finding it on my own).

In the words of the late Davis Bitton: "I do not have a testimony of the history of the church." Or, perhaps the late apostle B.H. Roberts said it more aptly when he stated...

“We need not follow our researches in any spirit of fear and trembling. We desire only to ascertain the truth; nothing but the truth will endure; and the ascertainment of the truth and the proclamation of the truth in any given case, or upon any subject, will do no harm to the work of the Lord which is itself truth…”

There's much more out there to learn Yediyd, but don't let it get you down. That's one of the aspects that has kept me interested in Mormonism. No matter how much you think you know, there's always so much more. It is an endless treasure-trove, both "historically" and "spiritually." Line upon line…

PS.

Bond is a good guy once you get to know him. He just has a bit of a mischievous streak in him.

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Guest Yediyd

I disagree with you about some of that....I think we should at least be forewarned about some things that we can then go and study out for ourselves...I did a lot of research on church history when I first joined...at least...I THOUGHT I did!!! But this ugly stuff has been cleanly swept under the rug...I only see it when I run into antis, and when I ask my leaders about it, they say things like you said about not having testimonies of history....well, even if it is ugly, it is a part of our heritage and it belongs in the history books as well. G-d doesn't keep the ugly out of the Bible...There is no shame in admitting that our prophets were human...Only Jesus Christ was perfect, after all.

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Guest Doctor Steuss

I disagree with you about some of that....I think we should at least be forewarned about some things that we can then go and study out for ourselves...I did a lot of research on church history when I first joined...at least...I THOUGHT I did!!! But this ugly stuff has been cleanly swept under the rug...I only see it when I run into antis, and when I ask my leaders about it, they say things like you said about not having testimonies of history....well, even if it is ugly, it is a part of our heritage and it belongs in the history books as well. G-d doesn't keep the ugly out of the Bible...There is no shame in admitting that our prophets were human...Only Jesus Christ was perfect, after all.

I can understand some of the frustration. There is a lot of information out there, and with so many good books (Harry Potter anyone?) who wants to spend their time reading the multi-volume History of the Church, or Bushman's books, or RL Anderson's books, or Bitton's research, or BH Roberts, or... Nonetheless, I don’t know that it being “swept under the rug” is necessarily an accurate appraisal of the situation. Although it isn’t spoon-fed in the three-hour block of church doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t out there to be discovered on your own.

It's there if you want to find it. But, it's a matter of wanting to find it. Yes, it is part of our heritage, but exactly how does it fall within the mission of the church to "Proclaim the gospel and perfect the saints"?

In the end though, I guess the question is: What made you gain a testimony of Christ and the LDS Church? Historical tidbits, or the spirit?

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Guest Yediyd

Yes, I believe some things are an embarrassment to our church and are subsequently "hushed"...I don't think that is right...this milk before meat is detrimental because I feel duped and lied to....a lie by omission...I still believe that this church is true...but I feel that I should have had more information before I was badgered into baptism...I WAS badgered, too!!! The missionaries just would NOT let it go!! and when I wanted to take my time...they turned up the pressure....I finally got baptised to get them off my back!! I did not have a full testimony, yet...and when I went to my Bishop for a Temple recommend and he asked me if I had one...I told him "no" , he said that he felt that I should go to the Temple anyway, and I'm glad he sent me...because it was in the Temple that I recieved my testimony....

I still trust and believe in our prophets and this church, but I don't like the way I was brought in...I guess, if I think about it, though...I probably would not have joined if that information had been forthcoming..it would have scared me away...so, it was wisdom that kept it from me...I just can't help feeling that I was coursed to some degree.

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Guest Yediyd

In the end though, I guess the question is: What made you gain a testimony of Christ and the LDS Church? Historical tidbits, or the spirit?

In the end, It was the Spirit that testified to me of the truth.I felt it SO strong in the Temple. I felt other things in the Temple that I won't discuss here, but it was that Temple experience that gave me my testimony...and many other things along the way have strengthened it....

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Guest Doctor Steuss

Yes, I believe some things are an embarrassment to our church and are subsequently "hushed"...I don't think that is right...this milk before meat is detrimental because I feel duped and lied to....a lie by omission...I still believe that this church is true...but I feel that I should have had more information before I was badgered into baptism...I WAS badgered, too!!! The missionaries just would NOT let it go!! and when I wanted to take my time...they turned up the pressure....I finally got baptised to get them off my back!! I did not have a full testimony, yet...and when I went to my Bishop for a Temple recommend and he asked me if I had one...I told him "no" , he said that he felt that I should go to the Temple anyway, and I'm glad he sent me...because it was in the Temple that I recieved my testimony....

I still trust and believe in our prophets and this church, but I don't like the way I was brought in...I guess, if I think about it, though...I probably would not have joined if that information had been forthcoming..it would have scared me away...so, it was wisdom that kept it from me...I just can't help feeling that I was coursed to some degree.

I don't like the way you were "brought in" either (from what you've just stated). No one should be badgered to accept Christ. It should be a willful submission.

I wish you the best, and I hope you find peace as you struggle with the information you're running into. If there is anything I can ever do, or any questions I can answer (or books I can recommend), feel free to email me.

Humble Regards,

Stuart

Edited to add:

Based on what your testimony is based on, I'm sure you'll find peace as you discover more about the history and founding of your religion.

Take care dear sister.

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<div class='quotemain'>

I kept following these links and ended up at a Donny Osmond site. Hmmmm.

Donny.com? Don't go there!!!! Their customer service is the absolute worst. I waited over 2 months for an item I ordered from them that they promised in 2 weeks. When I emailed them, they never bothered to respond, not even an acknowledgement letter. They may be good people for all I know, but they are rotten at the whole business and communications thing.

And besides all that, Marie was nowhere to be found. :wow:

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Guest Yediyd

Hounded into it and done to get them off your back? That is interesting Yed. Thank you

Yes, unfortunately...that is the truth...I am not sorry that I joined, though...but I did not even have a good idea of the reason for the baptism when I got baptised...I did not even know at that time that it was for remission of sins...I was still thinking like a Baptist when I got baptised...I learned later that I was washing my sins that day.
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I still have a hard time seeing him as a prophet. I know he preached and he told people of the coming flood... SOme day I'll look at that concept.

Let me know what you find. Muslims do consider Noah a prophet, I believe. Also, Orthodox Jews believe that non-Jews are under a covenant called "The 7 Laws of Noah," or the Noahide Laws. There are even some small religious sects dedicated to this simple convenant.

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Guest Yediyd
<div class='quotemain'>

Yes, I believe some things are an embarrassment to our church and are subsequently "hushed"...I don't think that is right...this milk before meat is detrimental because I feel duped and lied to....a lie by omission...I still believe that this church is true...but I feel that I should have had more information before I was badgered into baptism...I WAS badgered, too!!! The missionaries just would NOT let it go!! and when I wanted to take my time...they turned up the pressure....I finally got baptised to get them off my back!! I did not have a full testimony, yet...and when I went to my Bishop for a Temple recommend and he asked me if I had one...I told him "no" , he said that he felt that I should go to the Temple anyway, and I'm glad he sent me...because it was in the Temple that I recieved my testimony....

I still trust and believe in our prophets and this church, but I don't like the way I was brought in...I guess, if I think about it, though...I probably would not have joined if that information had been forthcoming..it would have scared me away...so, it was wisdom that kept it from me...I just can't help feeling that I was coursed to some degree.

I don't like the way you were "brought in" either (from what you've just stated). No one should be badgered to accept Christ. It should be a willful submission.

I wish you the best, and I hope you find peace as you struggle with the information you're running into. If there is anything I can ever do, or any questions I can answer (or books I can recommend), feel free to email me.

Humble Regards,

Stuart

Edited to add:

Based on what you're testimony is based on, I'm sure you'll find peace as you discover more about the history and founding of your religion.

Take care dear sister. I love this church, and I am not going to let a few "bumps" change my mind...I am just ready to sink my teeth into some meat, now.

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Guest Doctor Steuss

[...]

I love this church, and I am not going to let a few "bumps" change my mind...I am just ready to sink my teeth into some meat, now.

Just make sure the meat is kosher. ;)

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Guest Yediyd
<div class='quotemain'>

[...]

I love this church, and I am not going to let a few "bumps" change my mind...I am just ready to sink my teeth into some meat, now.

Just make sure the meat is kosher. ;) Right!!!! :rolleyes::sparklygrin::P

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<div class='quotemain'> Hounded into it and done to get them off your back? That is interesting Yed. Thank you

Yes, unfortunately...that is the truth...I am not sorry that I joined, though...but I did not even have a good idea of the reason for the baptism when I got baptised...I did not even know at that time that it was for remission of sins...I was still thinking like a Baptist when I got baptised...I learned later that I was washing my sins that day.

LOL This made me think of my expeiernce thank you I often forget to look back to my baptism. I had the opposite experience I had to hound the missionaries to get baptised took me 3 weeks:) - you know I don't think many of us know what we are getting into when we step into the waters of baptism but I do know if I hadn't been baptised the day I was it may never have happened (long story involving parents) - I think our baptisms happen at the right time for us even if we wish it were different.

Concerning church history I do think the church has to catch up with the times the information has always been relatively easy to get hold of, but it hasn't been taught either. I do agree some more openess may be more appropriate with the internet now making information more widely availible. But I think that is happeneing slowly the Moutain Meadow Massacre is being more openly discussed than it was when I was first baptised, I suspect other things will follow.

Charley

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Guest Yediyd

I had never even heard about the journal of discourses before getting this computer three months ago!! I have been lds for three years!!! Not one word was said about them...I knew nothing about mountain Meadows till my friend started hounding me with it!!! I'm learning a lot...I had no idea that JS had so many wives and that he kept it from Emma...I was shocked to learn that last night...but I will sort all this new information out...in time.

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I had never even heard about the journal of discourses before getting this computer three months ago!! I have been lds for three years!!! Not one word was said about them...I knew nothing about mountain Meadows till my friend started hounding me with it!!! I'm learning a lot...I had no idea that JS had so many wives and that he kept it from Emma...I was shocked to learn that last night...but I will sort all this new information out...in time.

Yediyd, I have been a member since 1967 - I never heard of those either until a few years ago and it was via the internet.

Why does it bother you so much? Because the anti's have you believing that it was kept deliberatly from you? It wasn't you know. As for you being badgered into getting baptised - did you go to the Bishop and tell him you were not ready? Did you have an interview with him first? You should have, and at that time you should have been asked if you were ready for this.

I badgered my Bishop to get me baptised. He thought I already was. Took me two years to finally get through to him, and actually it was my Dad who got through. He took me to the Bishops home and said: Mr. Bishop, my daughter really wants to be baptised, is there some reason why you are not allowing it? The Bishop said, she already is, and Dad said - Check your records and show me the baptismal record.

Sure enough, there was none. Guess what, I really don't remember much about that night, other than I had to be dipped three times. My right foot kept surfacing! I didn't understand that it was to wash away my sins either. That didn't sink in until I was at a baptism 6 years ago!

You may think that you are ready for the meat - but sometimes we have to obey Father and stay on the milk for a bit longer.

You can not run until you learn how to walk. You can not walk until you learn how to crawl, and you can not crawl until you learn how to hold your head up and roll over.

Step by step. Line upon line, and precept upon precept. You need the milk before you can understand and appreciate the meat.

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But if things are "hidden" then it is much more than other religions. Christianity is pretty straight forward-Christ and him crucified. No falling on "milk before meat" as it's laid out in that sense.

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Guest Yediyd

But if things are "hidden" then it is much more than other religions. Christianity is pretty straight forward-Christ and him crucified. No falling on "milk before meat" as it's laid out in that sense.

We teach that too, and we teach it first. Our church is founded upon Christ.
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Guest Yediyd

Yed,

Your missing this conversation. You know what I'm asking/saying. It is coming from what you said about your experience.

I think I am missing the point, could you spell it out for me, T?
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