Baptism required for all kingdoms


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I believe Vort or JaG or someone once proposed the idea that baptism might be required for even the Telestial kingdom. I remember responding that it didn't seem right to me. However, recently in my scripture study I read the verses 58 and 59 of Section 138 in the D&C, which reads:

 

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

 

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

 

Note the following points.

  • They repent after death.
  • They are redeemed through obedience to ordinances.
  • They pay the penalty anyhow, even though having repented.
  • Their reward is according to their works.

The implication here seems to me that this is not necessarily referring to those who never had the chance at the gospel and good works and are thereby not accountable. For why would the unaccountable who accept the gospel after this life pay a penalty? I imagine, instead, that this is referring to everyone who was accountable but did not live up to that accountability in this life, but thereafter are heirs of salvation to some kingdom, but not the Celestial Kingdom and Eternal Life.

 

The meaning I read into this is, perhaps, two-fold. 1) Those who achieve any level of salvation will have to do it through the redemption of Christ by obedience to the ordinance work done for them via work for the dead. 2) Those who refuse this and do not repent will not be redeemed to any level of salvation (cast out to outer darkness).

 

I have, heretofore, always viewed it slightly differently. But this scripture has, perhaps, altered my thinking on the matter. Not that I'm set on this view. Just thinking differently, perhaps.

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This is only a side issue, and doesn’t address your main point, but I’m guessing that somewhere in between the time of Joseph Smith and the time of Bruce R McConkie, our understanding of the term salvation may have been “refined” a little. Verse 59 seems to suggest that those described, or referred to in verses 58 and 59 are “heirs to salvation.” McConkie defined salvation in the following terms:

 

1. What is salvation? It is both immortality and eternal life. It is an inheritance in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It consists of the fullness of the glory of the Father and is reserved for those for whom the family unity continues in eternity. Those who are saved become as God is and live as he lives.

 

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/mcconkie-bruce-r_think-ye-salvation-grace/

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Two thoughts:

1. I agree with TFP; but would clarify: I don't think these individuals are paying the full penalty for their sins. If that were possible, there would be no need for a Redeemer at all.

2. As much as I respect Elder McConkie and recognize the contexts in which his definition of "salvation" is apropos, I am uncomfortable concluding therefrom that all scriptural appearances of the terms "salvation" and "exaltation" are always and absolutely synonymous. In plain language, "salvation" is simply the state of being "saved"; and even the telestial have been saved from something. From everything I've read, I rather think that McConkie himself would have never have stood for the idea that the willfully rebellious in this life can collect their forty lashes in the spirit world and then come forth in the resurrection as heirs to the Celestial Kingdom,

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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The very existence of a Savior providing an atonement for us suggests in the strongest terms that there is an unbridgeable gulf between us and God, that we cannot pay the price of our own sins. I know very well what the scriptures say about "they must suffer even as I", but note that those who so suffer are not heirs of eternal life. Somehow, gaining exaltation is utterly dependent on the atonement.

 

But even with that in mind, it seems clear that any degree of divine glory requires baptism. We are given the ordinances of exaltation, not told what ordinances (if any) (and surely there are others) might be required for a non-exalted glory. But it does seem to me that baptism is required for any inheritance of glory. If I had the time, I would go through scripture and try to point out verses (such as the D&C verses you quote) that suggest this to me. I will try to be alert and make notes on this from this point forward; but even if I remember to do that, it will be years before I will have compiled the scriptures to try to make my point. At this time, I am going primarily by impressions made on my mind during past scripture study. I have read diligently, but I have not been a diligent student in carefully compiling my notes. One step at a time, i suppose.

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It is my personal opinion that baptism is not required for either of the other "Kingdoms" other than Celestial.  The reason I do not believe that there is a baptism is for a couple of reasons.  First it is my understanding that the other kingdoms will be directly tied to the resurrection.  Thus those that will inherit the other kingdoms will be so resurrected.  For example those that inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom will receive a Terrestrial resurrection.  It is also my understanding that resurrection is ordered.

 

The Celestial resurrection will be the first resurrection and that no one will be resurrected for any other kingdom until all Celestial individuals has completed their resurrection.  The Celestial resurrection will not end until after the 1000 year millennium.

 

It is also my understanding that Baptism is a physical ordinance that must be performed during the mortal probation.  Either directly or by proxy.

 

So if there is to be baptism for any other kingdom other than Celestial - how will they be baptized for the dead?  If by proxy for the dead - who will perform the proxy baptisms? 

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Two thoughts:

1. I agree with TFP; but would clarify: I don't think these individuals are paying the full penalty for their sins. If that were possible, there would be no need for a Redeemer at all.

2. As much as I respect Elder McConkie and recognize the contexts in which his definition of "salvation" is apropos, I am uncomfortable concluding therefrom that all scriptural appearances of the terms "salvation" and "exaltation" are always and absolutely synonymous. In plain language, "salvation" is simply the state of being "saved"; and even the telestial have been saved from something. From everything I've read, I rather think that McConkie himself would have never have stood for the idea that the willfully rebellious in this life can collect their forty lashes in the spirit world and then come forth in the resurrection as heirs to the Celestial Kingdom,

 

McConkie elsewhere states (perhaps Mormon Doctrine, I'll have to look it up when I get home) that in most scriptures where the term "salvation" is used, it is synonymous with "exaltation" - acknowledging that there are some instances where it means something else.

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It is my personal opinion that baptism is not required for either of the other "Kingdoms" other than Celestial.  The reason I do not believe that there is a baptism is for a couple of reasons.  First it is my understanding that the other kingdoms will be directly tied to the resurrection.  Thus those that will inherit the other kingdoms will be so resurrected.  For example those that inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom will receive a Terrestrial resurrection.  It is also my understanding that resurrection is ordered.

 

The Celestial resurrection will be the first resurrection and that no one will be resurrected for any other kingdom until all Celestial individuals has completed their resurrection.  The Celestial resurrection will not end until after the 1000 year millennium.

 

It is also my understanding that Baptism is a physical ordinance that must be performed during the mortal probation.  Either directly or by proxy.

 

So if there is to be baptism for any other kingdom other than Celestial - how will they be baptized for the dead?  If by proxy for the dead - who will perform the proxy baptisms? 

 

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Baptisms for all of the dead will be performed during the Millennium.

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2. As much as I respect Elder McConkie and recognize the contexts in which his definition of "salvation" is apropos, I am uncomfortable concluding therefrom that all scriptural appearances of the terms "salvation" and "exaltation" are always and absolutely synonymous. In plain language, "salvation" is simply the state of being "saved"; and even the telestial have been saved from something. From everything I've read, I rather think that McConkie himself would have never have stood for the idea that the willfully rebellious in this life can collect their forty lashes in the spirit world and then come forth in the resurrection as heirs to the Celestial Kingdom,

 

I agree with you - hence my use of the quotation marks around the word "refined" in my post. perhaps I could have used the more twisted or distorted, but I did not want to be disrespectful to Elder McConkie. I'm more inclined to believe the way Joseph Smith used the word salvation than the way Elder McConkie did.  

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I could see it being required for the top two kingdoms.   The middle kingdom they have accepted Christ after the fact.  

 

"74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it."

 

I don't see how you can receive Christ unless you make a covenant with him?

 

But the Telestial Kingdom are those that reject Christ,  (so why would they need to make a covenant with Him?)

 

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

 84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

 

I feel this is the key.   Those that are in the Telestial Kingdom pay some Telestial Law Punishment.   The Hell spoken of here is Outer Darkness.   They are put there to be punished until the resurrection.   

 

Alma 40

 13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

 14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

 

 

I don't see why those in the telestial kingdom would need or more accept any baptism that was done for them.  They rejected Christ and his Atonement.    I do think that all people regardless of which kingdom will have their work done of them.  (I guess unless Heavenly Father tells us not to).   But those in the telestial kingdom reject every part of the Atonement. (they can't really reject the resurrection). 

Edited by tubaloth
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I'm not sure I follow your logic. Baptisms for all of the dead will be performed during the Millennium.

 

The question is how can some baptism be for something other than Celestial resurrection.  Since the work for any other resurrection will not even begin until all - down to the very last one for Celestial is completed.  The millennium therefore could only be to accomplish the work for Celestial resurrection.

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The question is how can some baptism be for something other than Celestial resurrection.  Since the work for any other resurrection will not even begin until all - down to the very last one for Celestial is completed.  The millennium therefore could only be to accomplish the work for Celestial resurrection.

 

This cannot possibly be true. Source it please.

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Tubaloth, if those in the Telestial Kingdom never repent and reject Christ in perpetuity, then why would it necessary for them to receive any sort of ministrations from higher kingdoms? (see D&C 76:86)

If there is no obedience in the TK, does that mean that lying, stealing, fornication, brutality, and rape all continue to exist in that state? If so, how can we call such a place "heaven" and how can we say that Satan is truly bound? Immediately after showing Smith the Telestial, the Lord observes that "These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever" (v. 110), and of course there are other scriptural references to a day when every knee shall bow and every tongue confer that Jesus is the Christ.

Priesthood ordination and temple rites may not be needed for the Telestial; but I think recognition of Jesus' role and a basic commitment to obey Him are requisites even there; and that recognition and covenant of obedience are betokened by baptism.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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This cannot possibly be true. Source it please.

 

Really????

 

How about D&C 88

 

 

 97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—

 98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

 99 And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.

 100 And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation;

 101 And these are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth.

 102 And another trump shall sound, which is the fourth trump, saying: There are found among those who are to remain until that great and last day, even the end, who shall remain filthy still.

Edited by Traveler
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I have, heretofore, always viewed it slightly differently. But this scripture has, perhaps, altered my thinking on the matter. Not that I'm set on this view. Just thinking differently, perhaps.

 

I agree that the verses you quoted provide food for thought. However, until some modern day prophet or apostle says otherwise, I’m going to throw in with a couple of dead ones who said:
 
"A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit."
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 12)
 
"But in order to enter into the celestial kingdom, which is the kingdom of exaltation, and the kingdom spoken of in the scriptures as the kingdom of God, one must accept and abide in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, adhering to the teachings, receiving the ordinances, and being true to the covenants which appertain to that salvation. The Prophet says a man may enter into the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom who has not been baptized with water and who has not in this life received these ordinances, but he can never enter into the celestial kingdom without complying with these eternal laws."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2: 25)
 
"Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed." 
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329)
 
"Question: Is baptism necessary to gain entry into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms? Won't all who are resurrected and go into these lower kingdoms have to be baptized before they can leave paradise? What will happen to those in paradise who refuse to accept the gospel and accept baptism, even by proxy?
Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, pg. 147)
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Really????

 

How about D&C 88

 

Perhaps I'm not understanding you.

 

I don't see anything there saying that the work for the just and the unjust alike cannot be accomplished during the millennium. Nor do I see anything that says there will be no living righteous men to do said work during that time.

 

Here's Brigham Young on the matter:

"And through the Millennium, the thousand years that the people will love and serve God, we will build temples and officiate therein for those who have slept for hundreds and thousands of years—those who would have received the truth if they had had the opportunity; and we will bring them up, and form the chain entire, back to Adam.

 

As I have frequently told you, that is the work of the Millennium. It is the work that has to be performed by the seed of Abraham, the chosen seed, the royal seed, the blessed of the Lord, those the Lord made covenants with. They will step forth, and save every son and daughter of Adam who will receive salvation here on the earth; and all the spirits in the spirit world will be preached to, conversed with, and the principles of salvation carried to them, that they may have the privilege of receiving the Gospel; and they will have plenty of children here on the earth to officiate for them in those ordinances of the Gospel that pertain to the flesh."

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I agree that the verses you quoted provide food for thought. However, until some modern day prophet or apostle says otherwise, I’m going to throw in with a couple of dead ones who said:
 
"A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit."
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 12)
 
"But in order to enter into the celestial kingdom, which is the kingdom of exaltation, and the kingdom spoken of in the scriptures as the kingdom of God, one must accept and abide in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, adhering to the teachings, receiving the ordinances, and being true to the covenants which appertain to that salvation. The Prophet says a man may enter into the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom who has not been baptized with water and who has not in this life received these ordinances, but he can never enter into the celestial kingdom without complying with these eternal laws."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2: 25)
 
"Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed." 
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329)
 
"Question: Is baptism necessary to gain entry into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms? Won't all who are resurrected and go into these lower kingdoms have to be baptized before they can leave paradise? What will happen to those in paradise who refuse to accept the gospel and accept baptism, even by proxy?
Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, pg. 147)

 

 

Excellent.

 

Makes me wonder what D&C 138 actually means then.

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Yeah, me too. :hmmm:

Me, three.

Does this mean that there is no obedience in the Telestial kingdom? That dishonesty, promiscuity, and cruelty prevail even there?

Or is there obedience, but simply as a matter of fear or force rather than covenant or agency?

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Does this mean that there is no obedience in the Telestial kingdom? That dishonesty, promiscuity, and cruelty prevail even there?

 

No. Just that baptism isn't required. We still have "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess".

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I believe Vort or JaG or someone once proposed the idea that baptism might be required for even the Telestial kingdom. I remember responding that it didn't seem right to me. However, recently in my scripture study I read the verses 58 and 59 of Section 138 in the D&C, which reads:

 

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

 

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

 

Note the following points.

  • They repent after death.
  • They are redeemed through obedience to ordinances.
  • They pay the penalty anyhow, even though having repented.
  • Their reward is according to their works.

The implication here seems to me that this is not necessarily referring to those who never had the chance at the gospel and good works and are thereby not accountable. For why would the unaccountable who accept the gospel after this life pay a penalty? I imagine, instead, that this is referring to everyone who was accountable but did not live up to that accountability in this life, but thereafter are heirs of salvation to some kingdom, but not the Celestial Kingdom and Eternal Life.

 

The meaning I read into this is, perhaps, two-fold. 1) Those who achieve any level of salvation will have to do it through the redemption of Christ by obedience to the ordinance work done for them via work for the dead. 2) Those who refuse this and do not repent will not be redeemed to any level of salvation (cast out to outer darkness).

 

I have, heretofore, always viewed it slightly differently. But this scripture has, perhaps, altered my thinking on the matter. Not that I'm set on this view. Just thinking differently, perhaps.

 

I don't think those particular verses give a lot of weight to baptism being a requirement for a lower kingdom. I read them as a repetition. In your noted points you include where they pay the penalty for their sins, but ignore where they are washed clean (a second baptism?). You could instead read it as "put on your coat and pick up your staff. And after you're clothed and equipped we can start our hike." Once you've picked up your staff you aren't putting on pants and socks. It's a parallel structure that builds on itself. It does support the idea that there is more going on (by using a different but related terminology in the second statement, it leaves room for the items in the first to be simple tokens).

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I think if you're looking for support, you can use the D&C 76 previously mentioned (terrestrial folk receiving the testimony of Jesus). If you want a reference in D&C 138, you can look at the scripture that prompted the vision. Peter said this missionary work was happening to the "disobedient in the days of Noah". If that's not telestial material, I don't know what is. Yet, the gospel gets taught to them in prison. Maybe they're candidates for the 76 reference?

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Does this mean that there is no obedience in the Telestial kingdom? That dishonesty, promiscuity, and cruelty prevail even there?

 

Don't forget about (attempted) murder. I envision Jack Sparrow and Captain Barbossa...two immortals locked in an eternal round of stabbing each other uselessly.

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I don't think those particular verses give a lot of weight to baptism being a requirement for a lower kingdom. I read them as a repetition. In your noted points you include where they pay the penalty for their sins, but ignore where they are washed clean (a second baptism?). You could instead read it as "put on your coat and pick up your staff. And after you're clothed and equipped we can start our hike." Once you've picked up your staff you aren't putting on pants and socks. It's a parallel structure that builds on itself. It does support the idea that there is more going on (by using a different but related terminology in the second statement, it leaves room for the items in the first to be simple tokens).

 

I'm not sure repetition, sequence, or parallelism relate to where I drew my baptism conclusion from. The simple statement, "redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God" is the source.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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I'm not sure repetition, sequence, or parallelism relate to where I drew my baptism conclusion from. The simple statement, "redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God" is the source.

 

Then the argument gets even weaker. The living aren't baptized to inherit Terrestrial Kingdom (or at least, that's not a selling point I've ever heard), and yet I have heard statements similar that we are redeemed, "through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel".

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