Baptism required for all kingdoms

[The Folk Prophet]

I guess I don't see a disconnect between the "they" in vs. 59 and those who have been redeemed in vs 58.

[Traveler]

Okay - I will concede that the Folk Prophet does have a point.  That every person will be baptized - either themselves or by proxy before they are resurrected to any glory - Celestial or otherwise.  I will take this, however, one step farther to declare that those that accept that baptism and repent of all their sins will inherit the Celestial Kingdom.  Those that repent of some subset of sins will likewise inherit some lessor kingdom according to what sins they refuse to repent of and therefore remain eternally guilty of by choice.

[person0]

This is an old thread, but I was having this discussion with a friend yesterday and I found an applicable quote that relates back to what @The Folk Prophet suggested in the OP:

Quote

Those who enter into the telestial kingdom, where their glories differ as do the stars of heaven in their magnitude, and who are innumerable as the sands of the seashore, are the ungodly, the filthy who suffer the wrath of God on the earth, who are thrust down to hell where they will be required to pay the uttermost farthing before their redemption comes. These are they who receive not the gospel of Christ and consequently could not deny the Holy Spirit while living on the earth.

They have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world.

In both the terrestrial and the telestial glories the inhabitants thereof will be limited in their powers, opportunities, and progression, because, like the sons of perdition, "they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received" (D&C 88:32). [Doctrines of Salvation, 2:22 - Joseph Fielding Smith] (lds.org - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual Ch. 33) emphasis added

I find it difficult to believe that after the end of suffering for 1000 years an individual would still refuse to accept the proxy work which has been completed for them, while also acknowledging that Jesus is the Christ.  However, while the quote I posted comes from a Church manual, there is information available on this matter in the Church materials that some might consider as contradictory:

Quote

Those in spirit prison who do not accept the gospel will eventually be resurrected and inherit telestial glory. (lds.org - Doctrine and Covenants and Church History: Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual Ch. 20)

Many of the quotes by @Capitalist_Oinker came from Joseph Fielding Smith.  They were quoted from sources which, while valuable, are not official publications of the Church.  Yet, among his various statements on the matter, the Church chose to publish the one statement that suggests that repentance and acceptance of the gospel would ultimately be required to inherit the telestial kingdom.

It is clear that baptism is not a 'requirement' for telestial or even terrestrial glory, but that specifically applies to this life; in this life it is for those who would be seeking to be heirs of celestial glory.  Even D&C 76:74 clearly states, "Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it" as a subset of those who will inherit the terrestrial kingdom.  I believe in this context these seemingly contradictory statements/sources can be reconciled to suggest that all will eventually receive and accept the ordinances performed on their behalf who will inherit a kingdom of glory, but that doing so is only required in this life for those of us who have knowledge in advance and wish to inherit eternal life in the celestial kingdom.  I think this would also mesh with and justify the interpretation of D&C 130:58-59 presented in the OP.

[JohnsonJones]

On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2015 at 9:04 AM, Capitalist_Oinker said:

 

I agree that the verses you quoted provide food for thought. However, until some modern day prophet or apostle says otherwise, I’m going to throw in with a couple of dead ones who said:

 

"A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit."

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 12)

 

"But in order to enter into the celestial kingdom, which is the kingdom of exaltation, and the kingdom spoken of in the scriptures as the kingdom of God, one must accept and abide in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, adhering to the teachings, receiving the ordinances, and being true to the covenants which appertain to that salvation. The Prophet says a man may enter into the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom who has not been baptized with water and who has not in this life received these ordinances, but he can never enter into the celestial kingdom without complying with these eternal laws."

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2: 25)

 

"Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed." 

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329)

 

"Question: Is baptism necessary to gain entry into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms? Won't all who are resurrected and go into these lower kingdoms have to be baptized before they can leave paradise? What will happen to those in paradise who refuse to accept the gospel and accept baptism, even by proxy?

Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required."

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, pg. 147)

Wow, good collection.  If I had not been convinced, yours would have.  I'm not sure how one could actually argue against the prophets.

I suppose one could say that as those are not "doctrine" as in the four standard works or a manifesto or proclamation, it is not official...

But, those statements, for me, seeing who they are from...seem pretty good sources to stem it from.

If I recall, the statement that they will need to accept the Lord, and every knee will bow is NOT necessarily the same as Baptism.  You can accept the Lord, and bow to someone, but it does not say they will need to be baptized in the verses already provided.  Maybe I missed it, but if I were to argue that baptism was needed (and that is not necessarily my opinion, if you read my thoughts above about the quoted post) I would have based it upon something like this

 

Quote

John 3:5

⁵ Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:11

¹¹ For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

As those are directly from the New Testament.  IF one accepts that the Telestial is part of the Kingdom, than by default, one would need to be baptized by water and the spirit or he cannot enter into it.

On the otherhand, if we take the Bruce R. Mckonkie route and other apostles (which I feel were fairly enlightened), then this is talking about salvation in regards to salvation being exaltation, or at least entry to the celestial...in which case it is very specific that the first verse is referencing entry to the Celestial kingdom or salvation and the direct Kingdom where one actually dwells with the Father...rather than where the Father does not dwell...

And that the latter is referencing what will happen at the end of days, and that those can be included in regards to those who are also those who suffer punishment as per the terms of the atonement under the judgement of the Lord and finally enter the Telestial Kingdom.

On the otherhand, I can see Person0's point, and in regards to baptism in this life, and baptism for the dead in that relation.  That brings up other topics though in that regards as well, especially as we perform more than just baptism for the dead...and also could be extended as per the Doctrines of Salvation (in regards to sealing, and how parents may bring their children to the Celestial Kingdom, even if the children are not Celestial Heirs due to the bonds of the covenant) to others ordinances that we perform for those dead in the temple and how they are also applicable to those, not just in the Celestial Kingdom, but in other kingdoms as well.

Edited September 4, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[Rob Osborn]

A few scriptures rules'

1. Salvation and eternal life are synonymous. Everyone who is saved from the eternal hell will have eternal life.

2. To be "saved" always means to be saved from an eternal hell. This salvation from eternal hell is achieved by strict obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

3. If one is saved it always means they are saved into the kingdom of heaven where God dwells. One cannot be saved outside of the "holy city" as spoken by John in Revelations. Everyone saved will gain admittance to the holy city where their names are written down.

4. Baptism is a requirement, for accountable souls, to be saved from the eternal hell. There is absolutely no salvation from an endless hell without repentance from sins and baptism.

5. Damnation always means to be condemned to hell in the future tense or the state of the condemned already in hell. To be damned literally means to be condemned into hell. Hell is outer darkness and is in no way a part of heaven.

All of the gospel, in order to properly understand, must follow those rules. Now, how the telestial and terrestrial fit into that can be greatly debated but it must remain truth that one cannot go around those rules listed. No salvation from hell will occur without strict compliance to the saving laws and ordinances of the gospel which include the ordinances and covenants made in the holy temple.

 

[Maureen]

15 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

..2. To be "saved" always means to be saved from an eternal hell. This salvation from eternal hell is achieved by strict obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel...

Where does Christ come in regarding Rule #2?

M.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Maureen said:

Where does Christ come in regarding Rule #2?

M.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

[Guest]

.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

On 4/27/2015 at 2:17 PM, mordorbund said:

McConkie elsewhere states (perhaps Mormon Doctrine, I'll have to look it up when I get home) that in most scriptures where the term "salvation" is used, it is synonymous with "exaltation" - acknowledging that there are some instances where it means something else.

I would ask you to look that up.  I remember it somewhat differently.  But my memory is as likely to be faulty as yours.

[zil]

38 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I would ask you to look that up.  I remember it somewhat differently.  But my memory is as likely to be faulty as yours.

Quote

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, Pg.257 EXALTATION
    Although salvation may be defined in many ways to mean many things, in its most pure and perfect definition it is a synonym for exaltation.

Mormon Doctrine
by Bruce R. Mcconkie
Second Edition

Text (c) 1966 by Bookcraft, Inc.
Infobase (c) 1991, 1992 by Infobases, Inc.

[Traveler]

 

Dare I suggest that it may be possible that there are still some things yet to be revealed pertaining to the Kingdom of G-d?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

And, dare I say that our journey from what we now believe about the Kingdom of God to what actually is reality is just beginning and will change drastically.

[Diana Hone]

Is every person that has lived on this Earth going to be baptized? I was in a discussion and was told yes we are going to do every persons temple work.I don’t believe that , baptism pertained only to the celestial kingdom. Am I wrong  because I was told everyone had the chance to repent.

[SilentOne]

@Diana Hone With regards to temple work, a baptism is to be performed for every person who has lived on Earth (with the exception of children who died before reaching the age of accountability). Whether or not to accept said baptism is up to them, but they will be offered the opportunity.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

I suspect we understand eternity about as much as a two year old understands how to build a Hydrogen Bomb.

[zil2]

Welcome, @Diana Hone!  Glad you've joined us.  Hope to hear more from you.

[roseofsharon]

 

There is an old RS PH meeting manual on Wilford Woodruff and his teachings.  Remember those old manuals with the teachings of the prophets?  Well the Wilford Woodruff manual quoted him saying that no one can leave the spirit world before having all ordinances performed according to WW.  This is one reason the resurrection goes on throughout the millennium. 

If you think about it,  everyone who sided with and supported Jehovah as the Son of God and Savior of the World should have an equal chance at hearing the plan of salvation and walking by faith,  whether  in this life or the next.  They should all have an equal chance to make covenants with the Lord whether in this life or the next.  King David fell from his exaltation because of the murder of Uriah and will have to suffer for that.  Nevertheless,  he still was a candidate for repentance on many other things and kept covenant as best he could regardless. 

 

[mordorbund]

On 7/31/2023 at 11:22 PM, roseofsharon said:

 

There is an old RS PH meeting manual on Wilford Woodruff and his teachings.  Remember those old manuals with the teachings of the prophets?  Well the Wilford Woodruff manual quoted him saying that no one can leave the spirit world before having all ordinances performed according to WW.  This is one reason the resurrection goes on throughout the millennium. 

If you think about it,  everyone who sided with and supported Jehovah as the Son of God and Savior of the World should have an equal chance at hearing the plan of salvation and walking by faith,  whether  in this life or the next.  They should all have an equal chance to make covenants with the Lord whether in this life or the next.  King David fell from his exaltation because of the murder of Uriah and will have to suffer for that.  Nevertheless,  he still was a candidate for repentance on many other things and kept covenant as best he could regardless. 

 

Was this the quote, or is it a different one?

Quote

It is our duty to rise up and build these Temples. I look upon this portion of our ministry as a mission of as much importance as preaching to the living; the dead will hear the voice of the servants of God in the spirit-world, and they cannot come forth in the morning of the [first] resurrection, unless certain ordinances are performed, for and in their behalf, in Temples built to the name of God. … Somebody has got to redeem them, by performing such ordinances for them in the flesh as they cannot attend to themselves in the spirit, and in order that this work may be done, we must have temples in which to do it; and what I wish to say to you, my brethren and sisters, is that the God of heaven requires us to rise up and build them, that the work of redemption may be hastened. Our reward will meet us when we go behind the veil. …

I found it here.

[JohnsonJones]

On 7/31/2023 at 9:22 PM, roseofsharon said:

 

There is an old RS PH meeting manual on Wilford Woodruff and his teachings.  Remember those old manuals with the teachings of the prophets?  Well the Wilford Woodruff manual quoted him saying that no one can leave the spirit world before having all ordinances performed according to WW.  This is one reason the resurrection goes on throughout the millennium. 

If you think about it,  everyone who sided with and supported Jehovah as the Son of God and Savior of the World should have an equal chance at hearing the plan of salvation and walking by faith,  whether  in this life or the next.  They should all have an equal chance to make covenants with the Lord whether in this life or the next.  King David fell from his exaltation because of the murder of Uriah and will have to suffer for that.  Nevertheless,  he still was a candidate for repentance on many other things and kept covenant as best he could regardless. 

 

Nice Quote

[JohnsonJones]

On 8/9/2023 at 6:34 AM, mordorbund said:

Was this the quote, or is it a different one?

I found it here.

Thanks for sourcing the quote.

[Carborendum]

On 8/9/2023 at 7:34 AM, mordorbund said:

Was this the quote, or is it a different one?

I found it here.

Well, there does seem to be a difference between the OP and the quote you offered.

Quote

the idea that baptism might be required for even the Telestial kingdom

Quote

they cannot come forth in the morning of the [first] resurrection

These two are not talking about the same thing.

[mordorbund]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Well, there does seem to be a difference between the OP and the quote you offered.

These two are not talking about the same thing.

I noticed the same thing. That's why I asked if that was the quote Rose was referencing. I can see how 

On 8/9/2023 at 8:34 AM, mordorbund said:

the dead will hear the voice of the servants of God in the spirit-world, and they cannot come forth in the morning of the [first] resurrection, unless certain ordinances are performed

can be remembered as 

On 7/31/2023 at 11:22 PM, roseofsharon said:

no one can leave the spirit world before having all ordinances performed according to WW

 

[Carborendum]

19 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

I noticed the same thing. That's why I asked if that was the quote Rose was referencing. I can see how 

It's amazing how a couple of words can change the meaning of the entire passage.

[CV75]

On 4/26/2015 at 11:57 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

I believe Vort or JaG or someone once proposed the idea that baptism might be required for even the Telestial kingdom. I remember responding that it didn't seem right to me. However, recently in my scripture study I read the verses 58 and 59 of Section 138 in the D&C, which reads:

 

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

 

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

 

Note the following points.

• They repent after death.
• They are redeemed through obedience to ordinances.
• They pay the penalty anyhow, even though having repented.
• Their reward is according to their works.

The implication here seems to me that this is not necessarily referring to those who never had the chance at the gospel and good works and are thereby not accountable. For why would the unaccountable who accept the gospel after this life pay a penalty? I imagine, instead, that this is referring to everyone who was accountable but did not live up to that accountability in this life, but thereafter are heirs of salvation to some kingdom, but not the Celestial Kingdom and Eternal Life.

 

The meaning I read into this is, perhaps, two-fold. 1) Those who achieve any level of salvation will have to do it through the redemption of Christ by obedience to the ordinance work done for them via work for the dead. 2) Those who refuse this and do not repent will not be redeemed to any level of salvation (cast out to outer darkness).

 

I have, heretofore, always viewed it slightly differently. But this scripture has, perhaps, altered my thinking on the matter. Not that I'm set on this view. Just thinking differently, perhaps.

There is a kingdom of glory less than the telestial in which people abide. I speaking of “the resurrection from the dead, or the redemption of the soul,” which is our “spirit and body” (D&C 88:15-16),” we learn in verse 24, “And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.”

If this is “outer darkness,” D&C 101:91 seems to suggest that those who abide it weep, wail and gnash their teeth -- a body is required to do these things. “Vessels” and “vessels of wrath” are term used in scripture to describe souls (as is “tabernacle” also).

At any rate, a voluntary choice is required to obey the ordinances (“For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God” – Romans 14: 11, 12). This brings to my mind that it may be that the physical position in which we are resurrected is in the bent knee.

[mikbone]

7 minutes ago, CV75 said:

This brings to my mind that it may be that the physical position in which we are resurrected is in the bent knee.

The righteous will kneel and praise Jehovah out of love and thankfulness of His grace.

The rest may need to be exposed to His glory.  Which will obviously require them to shield themselves and beg for mercy.  

I prefer the first.