ROBERTS: If Sue loves Joe and Tom loves Joe, Sue could marry him and Tom can't. Why isn't that a straightforward question of sexual discrimination?


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Let me also point out that the semantic distinction is vitally important, and not merely for accuracy's sake. A common tactic, perhaps unconsciously done at times but still not honest, is to introduce a peculiar, idiosyncratic meaning for a word, then make an accusation or statement using that idiosyncratic meaning but willingly allowing it to be generalized to the more common meaning. How often have we heard "love" used as a euphemism for sexual gratification, then been lectured at how "unloving" Christians or Mormons are because they fight against Love (meaning homosex or other fornication)?

 

I believe this to be an example of corrupt communications such as Paul specified in the epistle to the Ephesians. When this is done unintentionally, the offender should simply be corrected; if s/he is honest and humble, s/he will immediately admit the point. But often, the offender does not admit the point, betraying either a dishonest intent or a prideful attitude (which is much the same thing).

 

In any case, the "semantic distinction" should be maintained and not pooh-poohed away as if it were unimportant.

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As Latter-day Saints, we are asking our same-sex-attracted brothers and sisters to give something up.

 

As Latter-day Saints we are asking every person who ever lived to give themselves up entirely.

 

That being said, I simply disagree with the validity of this idea by way of an implication of anything "good" being given up.

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OK, thanks for the clarification.  I would note, though, that Mormonism isn't demanding that gays "experiment with straightness".  It is arguing for celibacy--more on that below.

 

 

Some?  That seems like a bit of an understatement, based on the reaction I saw.  I realize that the press and internet chatter can present a distorted view of reality, but I'm genuinely curious--Can you name ten gay people who publicly stated that they no problem with the relationships (not the gaudy, sensationalized presentation of the relationships, but the relationships themselves) in that TV show?

 

Can you name five?

 

 

Again, allowing for the distortions of media and internet echo chambers:  The reactions I've seen to Weed, and that TV show, and idea of reorientation therapy (regardless of the method used), and celibacy generally; go far beyond loving concern for others borne of sad experience.  It is a shrieking demand for immediate acquiescence and an utter contempt for actual discussion, rather akin to what I hear when my three-year-old thinks I'm about to take away her dessert.

 

Now, I'm not going to pretend that a life of celibacy is easy.

 

On the other hand:  there is an idea out there--an idea hatched in the Sexual Revolution, and freely disseminated nearly universally (but certainly not exclusively) by most gay rights advocates of which I am aware--that a sexless life is a life not worth living; and that celibacy--or even chastity for a limited period of time pending marriage--is per se abnormal, unnatural and unhealthy. 

 

That idea is frankly silly, dismissive to the richness of the broader human experience, and utterly debasing to humanity.  And--to be blunt--it didn't come from us. (And in this instance I use "us" to describe not only Mormonism, but the Christian Right and social conservatives generally.)

 

This wave of gay suicides and clinical psychological disorders is not caused by Christians who claim (as they have consistently done for two thousand years) that a person can, and in some cases should, live without sex.  It's caused by the intelligentsia, the media, and the political classes who have begun claiming, within the last five decades, that a person can't.

 

And, I would also note that the mere possibility, for a straight person, that he might be able to indulge in sex a year, or five, or ten years in the future; isn't as much of a balm in the here-and-now as one might think.  Ask any teenaged boy.

 

 

I would rather say that part of being human is a sexual relationship--it is, as I've already conceded, a big deal. 

 

But we are not less human if we abstain from such relationships.  This idea is being promulgated all over the social policy arena, and I submit that it is far more inherently painful to those (not just gays) who face a life of celibacy, than is the idea of a consecrated life that is celibate but nonetheless full of friendship, service, education, and culture.

 

And of course, gays and straights aside, there are other categories of people out there whose sexual proclivities are harmful to others, and so they will never know what they would categorize as a "meaningful" sexual relationship. This isn't to say that gay relationships are as horrifying or evil as some of those other types of relationships.  It is, however, to suggest that lifetime celibacy is not a form of martyrdom unique to Christian homosexuals.

 

 

Mormonism, at least, calls straights out for their sexual sins quite a bit.  ;)

 

And theologically, within Mormonism and many other Christian sects, unmarried straights do not have an approved sexual outlet--except for (straight) marriage.  But, here's the problem:  Marriage isn't just about sex.  If I'm single, and no woman in the pool of potential partners meets my criteria for emotional/mental health, or life plans, or attitudes on children and family life, or criminal history, income/career, or religion, or education . . . for all practical purposes, I'm just as "stuck" as I would be if I were gay.  I can either stay single--and celibate--in hopes that if I wait long enough, an opportunity will present itself for a relationship that meets all of my standards, or I can start to compromise. 

 

But now we've got the gay rights advocates insisting on coming into media, schools, the mental health professions, and--increasingly--religion; and insisting that while it's perfectly okay to lower your standards in a mate with regard to education, or religion, or criminal background or whatever--the one standard for a potential marriage partner that is sacrosanct and must never be compromised, is sexual identity.  Unless, of course, you're straight--because experimentation is normal, and look at all those straight guys in prison who form gay relationships in the absence of women, and--who knows?--you might actually like it.

 

All this, of course, redounds to what I was hinting at in my earlier post here: that much of the gay rights movement to date has not actually been about people, in all their complicated, many-faceted, multi-dimensional glory.  It's about sex, and--in my opinion--merely one aspect of a larger social trend regarding sex generally that in practice doesn't really result in sexual autonomy or fulfillment so much as it results in making sure that certain preferred groups get sex in the way and with the frequency that they desire.

Sorry for the late reply i was away for the weekend.  My trip actually gave me time to sit and talk about this issue with a large number of gay men at a party and it lead to some interesting conversations.

 

Can i give you 5 or 10 names who came out publicly for Josh Weed, no.  I read a few here and there and in conversations I've found a few but mostly I've come across doubt.  I wouldn't say loving concern is a motivation more a Shell shock reaction.  Sitting this weekend and listening to the people who were forced to try and change at a young age while they were trying to figure things out, talking to those who have tried the straight route for a variety or reasons it was interesting to listen.  One thing also very interesting to me wee the differences in stories between the age groups.  The mind set between the 30 year olds and the 20 year olds was quite different as to be expected.  The 30 year olds experiences were a little more reflective and while some of them had been through hell they had learned and grown and had time to ponder.  The younger ones were of the more rebellious " i'll do what i want because i want and i don't care what others think" mentality.   One common factor amongst almost all of the men who had undergone (ex gay) experiences in their youth was it was forced in one way or another.  Guilted, Strong armed, Violence used.  Deception.  Now with out going and looking for horror stories or random experiences, a group of gay men just sat and talked and this was a complete random sample but it was there in the open.  A few admitted to wanting to change on their own, but the way it was handled scared them so bad that it now produces a heated response.  Many of us have also tried the straight route for what ever reason and in the end had similar experiences,  Are these people vocally outspoken or part of the gay rights media monster, no, they are just normal every day people living their lives.  We talked about Josh Weed and the strongest reaction was poor guy i hope it works better than my experience.  Not Poor guy cause he's "stuck in a lie" but because they all remember their time in his place and don't want it to happen to someone else.  Are some of the more vocal opponents a bit more rash and heated, you bet, but for the average joe's it gives insight on where it comes from.

 

Now lets look at celibacy and lets be honest that's not all Christians are asking for unless things have changed.  I once asked here that if i entered into a same sex relationship following all the rules of the law of chastity would everything be ok.  The answer i got from this forum was a resounding no.  It wasn't just no sex, it was no relationship.  No hugs, no brief kisses no nothing unlike a straight dating member.  So it's not just no sex, it's no relationship.  So lets either clarify or state it's not just celibacy that's being asked. Which is fine, but lets just make it clear.

 

That average teen age boy you mentioned can still ask his crush out, maybe hold hands, have that brief hug, steal a quick kiss and if things progress he might marry her and have sex.  is it easy for him to avoid temptation, not in the least, trust me fully understand.  I was celibate for 13 years between relationships was it easy, nope did i do it, yes.  You know what made it not so bad? Knowing it could end.  People look at me like I was crazy, but i held to something, not because of god, or religious obligation but because i didn't like the idea of sleeping around.

 

Now to touch on the suicides topic something that happened this weekend makes me want to comment.  It's not that they need to stay celibate that drives the desire for young people to die.  It's that people can't even just accept them.  They aren't asked if they are having sex, or have had sex.   It's the fact they say they are gay and people come crashing down on them.  It was my friends 30th birthday this weekend.  I hate crowds and i still feel awkward in the gay scene, so i stuck in the kitchen helping with all the food and such.  One of his friends felt much the same way so he stuck with me.  He's 18, good looking kid, smart, should have been the life of the party. Instead he was moody, depressed and needed to drink.  He's been down visiting family during the week and had a great time until for some reason his young nephew said the word gay around my friends father.  His father lost it, blamed my friend and started to beat him.  It took such a huge toll on him that he spent the night trying to kill it all off with alcohol and drugs, just trying to numb everything.  These tend to be the things that make young people want to kill themselves rather than being told not to have sex.

 

You say Mormons call out sexual sins of straight people quite a bit, but it's not with the same disdain.  You look at many of the post dealing with sex before marriage and adultery and the reactions tend to be black and white.  The over all reaction to straight sexual sin is more understanding and seeking to repent.  The over all reaction to homosexual sin is completely different.  The revulsion, comparison to bestiality, the link to pedophilia, the complete looking down on the people who commit it.  If you look at the public face of the church would most people say the sexual sins are all called out equally or would most people even know of the fact it's called out at all.  Now yes i know, i've heard the talks at all levels of the church, it's a huge topic, but there are major differences.

 

Now believe it or not lol you straights love to tell gays to experiment with straight sex.  weather it be conversion therapy, marriage, Heck the amount of girls that want to turn gay guys straight.  If you think it's gays pushing for straights to experiment lol trust me try being gay and see how much straights push experimenting lol.

 

Now people keep telling me marriage isn't about sex and to a point i agree.  There is so much more to marriage, but i'd believe it was something worth exempting from my life is we didn't see things like the law of chastity which puts such a high importance on sexuality(purity0, it shows how vital a part that it o a person and what a gift it it to be given in a marriage.  I'd believe sex isn't a strong component if i didn't see such high adultery numbers in the people telling us it's not that big a deal.  I'd believe it if we didn't see endless posts here complaining of sexless marriages and how it's harming one side of such marriage.

 

There is so much to a complete relationship, but the people telling me sex really plays such a little to no part of it are full of it.  i have seen sooooooooooo many LDS marriages rushed because the partners can not control themselves and instead of taking it slow and just waiting and being celibate boom they are married and there are kids 9 months later.  Is that immaculate conception or lo and behold was there that sex that people say really doesn't need to factor in.

 

Yes people are celibate for many reasons, yes it's possible, yes it can open doors to a different kind of life.  It can make you stronger.  It  can also make you weaker.  Also for Gay LDS it's the answer.  The thing that a lot of this thread misses is that most of this doesn't apply with in The church.  It doesn't fall with in The physical structures of Christianity.  Asking Gay Christians to be celibate is fine, it's part of their doctrine and have at it.  This thread isn't about (directly) Gay Christians, it's about all gays seeking marriage.

 

I had a guy ask me about my views on marriage this weekend, more so about civil unions vs marriage.  He wanted my opinion before he spoke because we have our own heated debates with in the community.  I said i was more than happy with civil unions if they hadn't tried to find ways to still make exclusions in a lot of them.  Let Religion have marriage, or get government out of marriage all together, find a way to make both sides happy that really doesn't cause any injury to anyone.  I myself will gladly give up marriage if it gives me and my partner what we need, but people kept playing games and dragging their feet so it came to this.  It's gotten so blown out of proportion that now it's all or nothing and i don't see it ending when it probably could have ended long ago if we'd all let some of the posturing and ego go and just listened.

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...it was forced in one way or another.  Guilted...

 

Since when is guilt force?

 

Now to touch on the suicides topic something that happened this weekend makes me want to comment.  It's not that they need to stay celibate that drives the desire for young people to die.  It's that people can't even just accept them.  They aren't asked if they are having sex, or have had sex.   It's the fact they say they are gay and people come crashing down on them.  It was my friends 30th birthday this weekend.  I hate crowds and i still feel awkward in the gay scene, so i stuck in the kitchen helping with all the food and such.  One of his friends felt much the same way so he stuck with me.  He's 18, good looking kid, smart, should have been the life of the party. Instead he was moody, depressed and needed to drink.  He's been down visiting family during the week and had a great time until for some reason his young nephew said the word gay around my friends father.  His father lost it, blamed my friend and started to beat him.  It took such a huge toll on him that he spent the night trying to kill it all off with alcohol and drugs, just trying to numb everything.  These tend to be the things that make young people want to kill themselves rather than being told not to have sex.

 

Hmm. Is it the disapproval of homosexuality or, just maybe, the use of drugs and alcohol that seems the more likely culprit?

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You say Mormons call out sexual sins of straight people quite a bit, but it's not with the same disdain.

 

I believe the disdain you speak of is not for the sin per se, but for the attempted justifications of the sin. But I grant that it's true that the homosexual act strikes many of us as a tremendously distasteful idea.

 

At one level, I think this is good -- sin and perversion should be unpalatable to us, and in some ways we would all be much better off if all sin were perceived with such distaste. On the other hand, the nature of our lives in this sphere is that some harmful things seem good.

 

We need to learn to see and reject the evil even when we find it appealing. As importantly, we need to grant to others their capacity to find evil attractive and help them to reject it without condemning them for their carnal weakness. This is not only because we should not condemn those who, in President Uchtdorf's words, "sin differently than" us, but because such condemnation denies the mercies of God, hurting both us and those we disdain.

 

So while I suspect that the "disdain" you perceive is toward the justification of homosexuality rather than its practice, I agree that when the disdain is pointed toward human beings, individuals or groups, it is unjustified. I also admit that I have surely been guilty of this at some points and to some degree.

 

You look at many of the post dealing with sex before marriage and adultery and the reactions tend to be black and white.  The over all reaction to straight sexual sin is more understanding and seeking to repent.  The over all reaction to homosexual sin is completely different.

 

I think this is a misperception on your part.

 

The revulsion, comparison to bestiality, the link to pedophilia, the complete looking down on the people who commit it. 

 

I think you are mistaken. The revulsion may perhaps be felt, but it is rarely voiced when commenting on the bare fact of the particular flavor of fornication you're talking about. As far as finding the whole thing repellant, well, what do you expect? Do you truly expect that people who believe homosexual relations to be destructive to the Spirit AND who personally find the idea repugnant are going to simply lose their distaste for it because, you know, some people like to do it? For many, the idea of homosexual relations holds the same "yuck" factor as the idea of having sex with your mother or of eating a big, steaming plate of excrement. You may not like that people feel this way, but what do you expect of them?
 
In all cases that I can recall, the "comparison to bestiality" has been raised here when justification for homosexual "marriage" is attempted of the type "people should have the right to marry whomever they want." This is a simple and rather obvious logical response: If a marriage relationship is defined by the desires of the party wishing to marry, as the statement asserts, then that relationship quickly loses any coherent meaning, since you might wish to marry a dog, a fish, a dead person, a planet, or a purely intellectual construct. I can think of no examples on this discussion list of people responding to the topic of homosexual relations by saying, "That's just like bestiality." It may have happened, but I don't recall it, and I think it's safe to say that such is not a commonly used argument here.
 
The "link to pedophilia" -- not sure what you're saying. Have people here been claiming that all (or most, or a disproportianate number of) homosexuals are pedophiles? That has certainly been a common argument in the general public discourse over the last twenty years or so, but I have not noticed it here.
 
(I don't know whether or not it's true. The popular mob opinion lately has been that it is untrue, and I have sort of defaulted to the assumption that it is probably false, though I would be interested to see reliable studies that convincingly demonstrate this one way or the other. In any case, I haven't seen that argument used on this venue.)
 
"The complete looking down on people who commit it" -- not really sure how to respond. Granted, overt rejection or humiliation of people is wrong. No, we should not look down on practicing homosexuals for their sinful behavior, any more than we should look down on anyone else for his/her sinful practices. We should be charitable to all, with that same charity and forebearance that we ourselves hope to receive vis-a-vis our own sins and weaknesses. But to suppose that no one should ever voice disgust over practices they find disgusting is naive at best. If that is what you mean by "complete looking down," then I can't see that you are likely to get satisfaction on that score, nor should you.

 

Now believe it or not lol you straights love to tell gays to experiment with straight sex.  weather it be conversion therapy, marriage,

 

This is simply false. "We straights" never suggest that homosexuals engage in heterosexual fornication. "We straights" are against fornication of any type. Even if "we straights" thought that heterosex fornication were less repugnant to God than homosex fornication, we would not counsel someone to engage in a serious sin as some sort of "treatment." I am sure there are some people who suggest such a course, but they are not "us straights".

 

Similarly, I seriously doubt that any of "us straights" would counsel homosexuals to marry in an attempt to learn to be heterosexual. Such learning might be able to happen -- that would be great if it did -- but marrying to try it out is wrong on so many levels that I don't believe any of "us straights" here would counsel it. Marriage is a sacred union, not a course of treatment.

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The "link to pedophilia" -- not sure what you're saying. Have people here been claiming that all (or most, or a disproportianate number of) homosexuals are pedophiles? That has certainly been a common argument in the general public discourse over the last twenty years or so, but I have not noticed it here.

I think I have seen it thrown around. It typically goes like this.

Person 1: 80% of pedophilles self identify as heterosexual, therefore heteroes are more prone to that behavior.

Person 2: That likely leaves 20% self identifying as lgbt. Coming from a pool that makes up 6% of the general population at best estimates. That means pedophiles draw more heavily from the lgbt crowd than they do the heterosexual crowd.

I even recall you Vort, saying something to the lines that it doesn't surprise you that a group (lgbt) that gives in to their sexual deviations are more prone to accept other sexual deviations more readily.

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I think I have seen it thrown around. It typically goes like this.

Person 1: 80% of pedophilles self identify as heterosexual, therefore heteroes are more prone to that behavior.

Person 2: That likely leaves 20% self identifying as lgbt. Coming from a pool that makes up 6% of the general population at best estimates. That means pedophiles draw more heavily from the lgbt crowd than they do the heterosexual crowd.

I even recall you Vort, saying something to the lines that it doesn't surprise you that a group (lgbt) that gives in to their sexual deviations are more prone to accept other sexual deviations more readily.

 

Mathematically, person 1 is wrong.

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I think I have seen it thrown around. It typically goes like this.

Person 1: 80% of pedophilles self identify as heterosexual, therefore heteroes are more prone to that behavior.

Person 2: That likely leaves 20% self identifying as lgbt. Coming from a pool that makes up 6% of the general population at best estimates. That means pedophiles draw more heavily from the lgbt crowd than they do the heterosexual crowd.

 

If that is the situation where it has been used, then the argument is against the faulty logic of Person 1, not an assertion from Person 2.

 

(The studies I have heard referenced puts the homosexual population at between 0.5% and 2%, not 6%, which sounds like a large exaggeration. The high-end estimates I have heard are well under 4%. This Washington Post article suggests 2.3% total of homosexual and bisexual individuals, though I have no idea how reliable the study is.)

 

I even recall you Vort, saying something to the lines that it doesn't surprise you that a group (lgbt) that gives in to their sexual deviations are more prone to accept other sexual deviations more readily.

 

Hmmmm. I don't recall ever having made this statement and I'm inclined to disbelieve that I wrote it in that manner. However, I have spoken much on this forum over the years about the creeping acceptance of homosexuality in larger culture and in the Church, and more times than I care to count, I have been embarrassed in retrospect by my manner of expression on that topic. (SoulSearcher has probably absorbed more than his fair share of my misdirected frustration, for which I owe him an apology.) So it's not impossible, but I doubt it.

 

I could more easily believe that, like Person #2 in your example above, I might have made such a statement in response to an assertion (which I have heard before) that heterosexuals are more likely be to pedophiles or child molesters or some such thing than are homosexuals. On sober reflection, this does not seem to be a very useful argument. It is unlikely to sway anyone's opinion one way or the other, and therefore does not offer much utility. But I could believe I might have used it in such a way.

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The thread I recall was about boy scout leaders and why we might not want to allow individuals living specific lifestyles to serve in that capacity.

I could be quite wrong about who made a statement like that, but I am sure it was made.

Maybe I'll care enough to dig the thread up but I doubt it.

Edited by jerome1232
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The thread I recall was about boy scout leaders and why we might not want to allow individuals living specific lifestyles to serve in that capacity.

I could be quite wrong about who made a statement like that, but I am sure it was made.

Maybe I'll care enough to dig the thread up but I doubt it.

 

Perhaps you were thinking of this, which was not posted by me (in fact, I disclaimed support of the idea in the selfsame thread):

 

http://lds.net/forums/topic/47323-bsa-delays-decision-until-may/?p=698508

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So much to say but if i quote the posts it will get rather long so I'll make a few comments along the way to previous posts and hope it all flows together.

 

 On the topic of whether its the drugs and drinking that lead to the looking down no it wasn't in that case and many of the cases i or those i know have met with.  It's just the fact we are perceive as gay.  My friend was just playing with his nephew last week and low and behold his nephew said gay and my friends father started to punch him because he though he infected his nephew.  Last city i lived in we had people wait out side the gay bars to attack people.  I've seen it out shopping with me friends.  I've seen It in places i work when customers assume someone is gay and just start verbally abusing them.  ( boy are they shocked when i come to deal with is and find out why i handle it the way i do, i admit i enjoy surprising them as i have security throw them out with me going toe to toe with them the entire way).

 

One thing to consider in much i say, is that while some of it comes from this site, much of what i say reflecting on the Christians perspective comes from the Christian right media.  I've heard bits and pieces parroted here over the years but for the most part the members of this site have been less antagonistic.

 

As for the trying marriage of straight sex bit it get thrown around a lot.  Look at some of Carlimacs posts on asking why we just can't make a go with women.  Why oh why is it so horrible, why don't we just admit it could be possible to marry a woman and make it work.  Like it or not that's an experiment that more than a few of us have tried.  And like it or not it is an experiment at it's core.  Trying to find a way to make it work knowing the odds tend to be stacked against us.  It's only in the last few years that the LDS church has moved away from the idea of marriage as a cure and a lot of people still don't quite get why it's a bad idea.  People see Josh weed and think hey there you go see it can be done.  They tend to ignore the fact that for the one that does work, 100 have failed and hurt a lot of people.  There is a number of support groups in Utah for families that tried this experiment and now have to pick up the pieces.  Also quite a few of the "ex-gay" programs do push for gay people to develop sexual attraction to the opposite sex and progress into opposite sex marriages and as more and more of those groups are admitting it is a failed experiment.

 

I have no problem with the LDS looking down on homosexuals, it's what they believe and in the end it is what it is.  It's not pleasant but oh well.  It's how it's conveyed.  As Vort pointed out there are right and wrong ways to deal with it and a certain yuck factor does figure in.(by the way the exact same yuck factor we feel towards straight sexual ideas).  One of the comments i've made is expecting more from those taking the moral high ground.  Like Jesus with the leapers, it may be yuck, but that doesn't allow for people to use less of their manners or better behavior.  You might not get it from the other side and i hate that, but the second you act like them, you lose the ground you have.  This isn't directed at anyone in specific this is Christianity in general.

 

As for The Christian right using the pedophilia argument oh dear.  It's a favorite fall back.  They quote studies then have the person who did the study come back and say " what on earth are you doing ? my study said the exact opposite", they take random cases and don't fact check they just say what they want.  There are a whole bunch of flyers and site dedicated to the homosexual pedophilia menace.  They still claim being we are made this way by abuse and horrible families that we have to keep recruiting kids young to get more gay people and that this is 100% fact.

 

Over all to me there seems a stark difference between what a lot of people say should be the reaction or what they perceive as the reaction and what is reality.  I look at Christians and some of the vile stuff i hear means they have lost all justification to speak as Christians.  I'm not a novice or unschooled in Christianity.  I spent quite a bit of my life as a Christian and i still use a lot of the tenants to live by.  So why i hear some of the horrible things said it makes me pitty them because they are not on the path they think they are on.  I'm not talking simple condemnation, though to a point it's not their place but they are doing it to try and make us see our errors, great i can deal with that.  I can understand a level of disgust, but don't accept it as a reason to turn away for the sinner unless there are other good reasons.  I don't take issue at all with how it's supposed to happen and for the most part the LDS church has got it right...a few members here and there need a swift kick but I've gotten a much better feeling about the church on this area in the last few years.  That being said the Christian right and their media machine needs to be looked at real hard by honest to God Christians so you see the name they are giving you.  Lies, misrepresentations, distortions, fantasies, actual sins in the name of God.  If you wonder why "religious liberty" is in danger, why gays feel at war with Christians this is the reason.  This is why the level of respect or even fear has gone down on the gay side, this is why they don't really care about who gets hurt or loses something, because the Christian right has no problems lying or playing dirty so it's all out war, and sadly the real salt of the earth Christians get stung.  The members here aren't advocating executions, beating, expulsion, incarceration public shaming.  Most of you would be horrified to see that, but people are speaking for you.

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Homosexuality and all explanations, justifications, grievances, and motivations surrounding it are perpetuation of a root lie.

 

It is, flatly, a counterfeit of Satan. And all the twisting in the wind one wants cannot take away from this plain fact.

 

Homosexuality stems from the natural man and therefore any engagement therein, and I mean ANY, makes one an enemy to God.

 

When people buy into this core lie, then all the outlying descriptions of experience, thought and feeling become a half truth at best.

 

This is how most of your posts read to me Soulsearcher. I do not doubt your sincerity or claim you are intentionally misleading. But the argument, at it's very most core, is based on falseness, and ergo, nothing that stems from this falsehood rings quite fully true.

 

Of course, those who have bought into this cannot see it. And I do not expect you to see it. But wickedness never was happiness, and never will be.

 

Should anyone beat a kid up for a friend mentioning the word "gay" (assuming we take your second hand report at face value)? Of course not. Does that mean if this didn't happen, all his friends and family gladly accepted his homosexuality, and that there were no ramifications of judgment or even perceived judgement whatsoever in all the world, that this kid would then be happy in it?

 

No!

 

Of course that doesn't justify vicious hateful behavior. And it never will. But the existence of fringe lack-of-Christianity does not diminish the value and truth of correct, righteous Christianity.

 

It's as if you expect us to believe that without the father's violence the kid wouldn't be touching the drugs and alcohol and everything would be right in his life.

 

As to the "experimenting" idea, you're twisting things to suit an argument. It's been fairly well concluded and accepted that marrying straight to get over the gay is a wrong-headed idea.

 

What we as Christians, and specifically as LDS, are asking everyone, including gays, to experiment upon is righteousness. It is our contention that there is only one path to joy and happiness, and that path is to follow in the footsteps of our Savior and the words He taught and teaches through apostles and prophets. We advocate experimenting upon this -- namely by obedience -- and contend that only in doing so will one become as one should become, and be what one must be. We advocate that obedience will change people's hearts, souls, minds and very beings. We advocate that such "experimentation" will lead to joy, and all other acts, experimental or not, will lead to sorrow.

 

I reiterate: Anything beyond the truths of Christ and His gospel is a perpetuation of a lie.

 

Lies, misrepresentations, distortions, fantasies, actual sins in the name of God.  If you wonder why "religious liberty" is in danger, why gays feel at war with Christians this is the reason.

 

This is a prime example of the only-partial-truth of your posts. This is a small part of the big story, and the fringe extremists on both sides, while perhaps adding fuel to the fire, do not typically drive the overall path of politics. What does happen is the fringe happenings are being exaggerated, blown out of proportion, used as tent poles in the political arena, and made to be seen as mainstream instead of fringe.

 

Moreover, repeating again, homosexuality and all who sustain and support it against the honest exercise of religious liberty are standing with the devil's kingdom against God and perpetuating falsehood. The fact that some few on the side of God's kingdom are mistaken in their approach and tactics does not validate the lie of the other side or justify war against the liberties of all to worship, believe, speak, and act according to their free conscience.

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As to the "experimenting" idea, you're twisting things to suit an argument. It's been fairly well concluded and accepted that marrying straight to get over the gay is a wrong-headed idea.

 

I don't have to worry about this problem, but back in the 1950s (I believe and I can't recall the who did it or when) an experiment was conducted involving a life-long homosexual who was brought into the test, shown hetero. porn and was then introduced to a woman of "ill-repute" over a series of various sessions.  At first he did not want anything to do with her, however over the course of these sessions he developed a desire for her and at the conclusion of the experiment it was documented that he copulated with her and the documentation stated that he "performed admirably".

 

This was back before they had the IRB and no such experiment documenting whether human sexuality can be changed would ever pass muster today.

 

Other fascinating studies during this time period was the Stanford prison experiment with prisoners and guards where students where told to act like either a prisoner or guard. Things went downhill real fast as individuals identified with their role and became that role.

 

For all of our studies on the human mind, we still don't quite grasp everything; as a man thinketh so is he.

 

Never underestimate the power of the human mind to change how one perceives oneself and to become something else. I am not in someone else's shoes, so I don't presume to tell them "it's all in their mind" . . .but I do know that the power of the human mind is unlimited. Many times through either drugs, addictions, biological imbalances, brain wires crossed, etc. our minds become clouded and are locked out of their true potential.

 

Homosexuality used to be classified as a mental disorder and then it wasn't, why? because it was voted out . . .is it a mental disorder . .. I don't know, I don't really care-all I know homosexual behavior is against God's commandments.

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As for the trying marriage of straight sex bit it get thrown around a lot.  Look at some of Carlimacs posts on asking why we just can't make a go with women.  Why oh why is it so horrible, why don't we just admit it could be possible to marry a woman and make it work.  Like it or not that's an experiment that more than a few of us have tried.  And like it or not it is an experiment at it's core.  Trying to find a way to make it work knowing the odds tend to be stacked against us.  It's only in the last few years that the LDS church has moved away from the idea of marriage as a cure and a lot of people still don't quite get why it's a bad idea.  People see Josh weed and think hey there you go see it can be done.  They tend to ignore the fact that for the one that does work, 100 have failed and hurt a lot of people.  There is a number of support groups in Utah for families that tried this experiment and now have to pick up the pieces.  Also quite a few of the "ex-gay" programs do push for gay people to develop sexual attraction to the opposite sex and progress into opposite sex marriages and as more and more of those groups are admitting it is a failed experiment.

 

I have no problem with the LDS looking down on homosexuals, it's what they believe and in the end it is what it is.  It's not pleasant but oh well.  It's how it's conveyed.  As Vort pointed out there are right and wrong ways to deal with it and a certain yuck factor does figure in.(by the way the exact same yuck factor we feel towards straight sexual ideas).  One of the comments i've made is expecting more from those taking the moral high ground.  Like Jesus with the leapers, it may be yuck, but that doesn't allow for people to use less of their manners or better behavior.  You might not get it from the other side and i hate that, but the second you act like them, you lose the ground you have.  This isn't directed at anyone in specific this is Christianity in general.

 

I have a questioning mind. After all these years of talking with gays on this site, learning your viewpoints and trying to understand ( really I am)  I'm still trying to get my head around homosexuality being  something that identifies a person as any other inborn trait would. I think the first world especially has simply adopted the idea of sexual pleasure being the utopia of existence and that achieving it any way one can is perfectly justified, whether it's the usual way or not.  I think that has a lot to do with why boys who may idolize other boys or are attracted to them "become" gay. Not because they really are, but because of the messages in the world.

 

I just don't believe that you are either gay or you're not.  For example I have always been attracted to women- beautiful women. It's an aesthetic thing for me.  But those thoughts never took on a sexual tone to them because I was never exposed to, educated in or indoctrinated in that train of thought as a child or teenager. Had I been told as a young girl who idolized other women and girls that it was "normal" to also feel and want to be physical with them beyond a hug, I might have believed them.  I might have cultivated those kinds of thoughts and attractions till I actually became a lesbian in mind and practice. I think one can become what they are encouraged to become if they are pliable enough. And heaven knows there is plenty of encouragement by the LGBT crowd. I'm not saying everyone who identifies as gay or lesbian has been tutored to become that. But with the blatant message out there that whatever goes and there is nothing morally wrong with same sex relations, more people are "becoming " gay or lesbian than would otherwise.

 

I think normal, happy family relationships are pretty messed up and this is another impetus to form abnormal ties. People are afraid of family life.  

 

I also don't believe that it's a given that someone with attractions to the same sex and married to someone of the opposite sex will be a prisoner to misery. I do believe that at least a portion of our sexual attractions are taught and learned in society. One can indeed learn to enjoy things they thought they never would,  That is one of the reasons among many I am so against gays raising/adopting children. It plants the idea in their head that those actions are completely socially acceptable. The lie that it's OK with God is even perpetuated- making for some really messed up kids when it comes to learning to identify right from wrong as they grow up.  

I have to agree with others that state anything other than hetero sex is a lie of Satan to destroy humanity, Although those "stirrings", those tingling twitterpated feelings for the same sex occur, they can be played down and ignored and many people with those thoughts can go on to live happy, normal hetero  lives marrying and bringing children into the world.  That is exactly what Satan doesn't want. 

Edited by carlimac
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Never underestimate the power of the human mind to change how one perceives oneself and to become something else. I am not in someone else's shoes, so I don't presume to tell them "it's all in their mind" . . .but I do know that the power of the human mind is unlimited. Many times through either drugs, addictions, biological imbalances, brain wires crossed, etc. our minds become clouded and are locked out of their true potential.

 

Good Morning yjacket! I hope you've been doing really good. :)

 

I want to confirm what you stated. I learned from someone wise that the battlefield in life truly is the mind. If we control our mind, our thoughts, we control our life. There is power in this principle because it is completely true. There are no exceptions. Those who start praticing and disciplining their minds and how they think will soon discover that they will have tremendous power over their life and over the circumstances they find themselves in. There is a pervasive false perception that is found through-out the population of the earth that we are powerless to control what happens to us. There is a pervasive victim mentality. There is a pervasive mentality that if only other people would be different our life would be better, happier, more peaceful, etc.

 

Our mind is truly where everything takes place. What we perceive, everything we perceive in life, gets filtered by our brains and our mind. If we can change our minds (and we CAN through the power of the atonement) then we will literally be changing reality. If we can control our thoughts we can literally control much of our environment. Nothing externally will have changed, only how we perceive our experiences and what meaning we assign to it.

 

I am grateful that God put me in to a family where I have had to overcome the effects of being physically and sexually abused. I am grateful for the many weaknesses that God has given me. When I think of the fact that God placed me in to the environment that He did I can think of it as, "How could God be so cruel to place me in to an abusive environment?" or I can think "God has tremendous confidence in me because He placed me in a difficult environment knowing that I would be able to overcome." I have begun to think and believe that God has a plan for me and that my weaknesses are the very things I needed to have given to me so that I can progress to become a God. As I have latched on to this idea I have found myself feeling tremendous gratitude for God and for His wonderful plan. He has been so good to me. Because of my weaknesses I have been made in to a better man. God has been with me the whole time. I look forward to discovering my weaknesses and for the trials God has for me. Each one leaves me a better person when the period is done. This is a result of changing how I think and what I think.

 

The battle that we all are engaging truly is taking place in the mind. Don't let the Adversary fool you in to thinking the external world has any control over you or power over you!

 

-Finrock

Edited by Finrock
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Good Morning yjacket! I hope you've been doing really good. :)

 

Thank you Finrock, I have been doing really well, I hope the same for you.  I have found in my life that it goes in waves; I go from being beaten by the refiners hammer to a bloody pulp and being put into the fire to the cool waters after the bits of metal have been hammered off. Right now, I'm in the relative cool waters after having been the most severe refining of my life.  I am enjoying those cool waters very much!

 

However, it is in the refiner's fire, where I learn the most, where I have learned the most precious lessons and experienced the most exquisite blessings of heaven. As painful as those experiences are, I thank my Heavenly Father for them as there are lessons that I can learn by no other way except by going through those experiences.

 

I hope to one day (probably in the next life), meet you and give you a big hug my brother. No one is perfect, but you are an inspiration to me. Thank you. God is so incredibly good and merciful; He loves us more than we can imagine. There truly are miracles that occur around us every day as He works through flawed human beings to carry out His goals.  It is simply a matter of us doing our best to align ourselves with His will, to allow ourselves to see His goodness in our lives and to hear His voice.  When we do that, it is glorious and words cannot describe the depth of gratitude and love for His eternal plan, for the Atonement, and for His son. And it is a constant battle to change ourselves and our perceptions, to align ourselves with Him.   

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