Substance of Things Hoped For


Finrock
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Hebrews 11:1

 

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

I am left wondering what does the word substance mean as it is being used in this scripture. The footnotes say "assurance, basis, foundation". But, even with that, what does it mean. Faith is the basis or the foundation of things hoped for. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for. Substance could mean, "ultimate reality that underlies all outward manifestations and change" (merriamwebster.com).

 

Could that definition fit? Is faith the ultimate underlying reality that is hoped for? If it is, what does that even mean?

 

From what I am gathering the Greek word used in Hebrews is "hupostasis" which can be translated as substance.

 

Faith is real seeing.” The word “substance” deserves careful treatment. It is hupostasis, made up of stasis “to stand,” and hupo “under,” thus “that which stands under, a foundation.” Thus, it speaks of the ground on which one builds a hope (Wuest Word Studies – K. S. Wuest).

 

Interesting. Faith is not what I think it is or thought it was.

 

-Finrock

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Faith is the actuality of what we hope for. We hope for eternal life; that actuality is faith. We hope God hears our prayers; that actuality is faith. We hope Santa comes; that actuality is non-existent, so by definition we cannot have faith in it.

 

At least, that is my understanding of Paul's teaching. I would note here that faith is much more than this; Paul's teachings help us understand faith, but they do not totally explain it. They are barely a beginning.

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Another way to look at it (and I'm sure some will have a tap-on-the knee reaction to what I'm saying) is that faith is what one employs in place of substance because things hoped-for have no substance.  Faith takes the place of evidence because things not seen are not evident.

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I believe that true faith must be based in something that is known to be true.  Let me use the example of electrons.  No one has ever seen an electron - yet there is a lot of evidence of the unseen electrons.  Faith is then the action of turning on the lights at your home believing that the light switch will connect the electrons and bring you light.

 

So strong is the evidence of things not seen that if the light does not come on - you do not lose faith in electrons but think the light must be burned out - so you replace the light bulb.  If the light still does not come on -- your faith is not shaken but you think the switch must be failing - so you replace the switch.  But the light still does not come on but your faith in electrons remains and now you think the power is out.  All the time never losing faith in electrons.  Something you have never seen and something no one really understands.  Some may have experimented with electrons and told you of thing - that you may still find rather strange and difficult to understand.  But with all the talk and regardless of those that believe electrons to be particles or others believing electrons to be waves and others with more strange theories - yet when you turn the switch - you have faith that electrons will create light.

 

All the time - the more you learn and experience concerning the truth of electrons - your faith continues.  Never-the-less your faith is based in something true - other wise you have a false faith.

 

This has an interesting relationship to ancient times.  Lamps with oil were used to light their homes.  It was believed that there was a G-d the oversaw you lamp and in order for you lamp to work - you must please the g-d of the lame.  So you would perform a ritual and pray to the lamp g-d for your lamp to light - then you would light your lame.  If you lamp did not light - it was believed that you did not please the lame g-d.  We now believe such faith to be nonsense.  But many believe G-d to be like the lamp g-d.  That you must please him through faith for spiritual things to work for you. 

 

I believe in this is incomplete and somewhat nonsense.  The true and living G-d is a G-d of truth and exact principles.  But like those that believed in pleasing a lamp g-d -- many believe to please the true and living G-d with ritual and incantations (rot prayers) to represent their faith.  But true faith in the true G-d is to be his disciple and know of him by keeping covenants.  To claim faith in the true G-d and not keep his covenants - is a false faith.  Your lamp may give light but it is because of circumstance and not faith - therefore it is not consistent.

Edited by Traveler
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I've always thought of it as per the "foundation of" idea. Faith is the foundation of things hoped for. Or...in other words...the reason we hope. That actually makes it fairly simple (and, of course, not simple at all), in that if you have no faith in something, how can you possibly have hope in it?

 

Faith gives us reason to hope. If we have no faith in heaven do we hope for heaven? Of course not. Faith leads to hope. Faith in God leads us to trust that God can and will save us. Hence, we hope for salvation. No faith = no hope for salvation.

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I've always thought of it as per the "foundation of" idea. Faith is the foundation of things hoped for. Or...in other words...the reason we hope. That actually makes it fairly simple (and, of course, not simple at all), in that if you have no faith in something, how can you possibly have hope in it?

 

Faith gives us reason to hope. If we have no faith in heaven do we hope for heaven? Of course not. Faith leads to hope. Faith in God leads us to trust that God can and will save us. Hence, we hope for salvation. No faith = no hope for salvation.

 

One can have hope and faith - even for things that are not true but if such hope and faith is not based in truth - of what value is that?  Is a false faith really any better than no faith?

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I believe that true faith must be based in something that is known to be true.  Let me use the example of electrons.  No one has ever seen an electron - yet there is a lot of evidence of the unseen electrons.  Faith is then the action of turning on the lights at your home believing that the light switch will connect the electrons and bring you light.

 

If you're interested, treat me as a neophyte for the sake of conversation.  Think of it as an opportunity to make your meaning clearer.  Pretend with me:  

 

I'm having problems with the example.  Examine it with me as an isolated situation.  When I move a light switch it is because I observed since my earliest recollection that when my parents moved the switch a light came on.  I was conditioned a little bit like an animal in an experiment and learned to recognize the correlation.  My experience has trained me.  I would say every time I move the switch I expect the light to come on because it always has in the past.  This, to me, is merely confidence born of habit that B always follows A.

 

Now, if at some point in the past I had moved the switch and the light did not come on, I would not have drawn conclusions about light bulbs being burned out, or that a flow of electrons had been interrupted.  If my parents had not been available to seek help, I would not have known what to do and most likely I would have returned a few times to try the switch again but ultimately given up.

 

The reason I draw this distinction is that some missionaries are asking me to take an action that doesn't correlate with anything I've experienced in my life.  I see the light switch.  I see the light and the correlation between them.  I watched others do it and I saw the direct result.  These missionaries are asking to do something without anything to back up what they ask except their words.

 

(If none of this interests you, I won't mind that you don't want to bother with me).  

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When I taught primary I compared faith to air. You can't see it, but you can certainly see its effects: as the wind blows, and as we breathe. Similarly you can't see someone's testimony, but you can look at their actions and see how their testimony or lack of testimony affects them. There are many unseen things we can have faith in, but only faith in Jesus Christ can lead to salvation. The Brother of Jared exemplified the assurance, substance and power of true faith in the Book of Ether and showed us that the end result of faith is to bring us to a point where we have faith no longer but instead have perfect knowledge. Thus faith is the first step in a journey that leads one to perfect knowledge. Seems pretty substantive to me :)

 

 

 

Ether 3:19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.
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One can have hope and faith - even for things that are not true but if such hope and faith is not based in truth - of what value is that?  Is a false faith really any better than no faith?

 

I would argue, yes sometimes.  What if I have faith that the the god I worship (and you deny) wants me to spare your life even though you don't believe?  If you call my faith in my god false, then logically my god's want is false.  Should I then refrain from sparing your life because no faith is no worse than my false faith? 

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I'm having problems with the example.  Examine it with me as an isolated situation.  When I move a light switch it is because I observed since my earliest recollection that when my parents moved the switch a light came on.  I was conditioned a little bit like an animal in an experiment and learned to recognize the correlation.  My experience has trained me.  I would say every time I move the switch I expect the light to come on because it always has in the past.  This, to me, is merely confidence born of habit that B always follows A.

 

Your point is valid. The difference between faith and turning on a light switch is that the act of turning on a light--assuming good electrical connections and a working light bulb--delivers an immediate and obvious effect. Faith does as well, but there can be a long enough period of time between the action and the reaction that the connection isn't always obvious. If we were rewarded immediately for every good act or punished immediately for every bad act, depending on the magnitude of the reward or punishment it could effectively eliminate agency and the need for faith, destroying all possibility for human growth and development. I've made enough mistakes and enough positive choices in my life to recognize the value of positive choices. The temporary rewards associated with lying and stealing are inarguable, but most would say that such actions will not lead to long-term happiness. I believe faith is similar. We must have enough faith to turn on the switch and leave it on, believing that the reward will eventually come even though at the moment we cannot see the effect and remain in darkness. That moment between flipping the switch and waiting for the result is, I believe, where hope enters the equation.

 

A friend of mine was struggling with her testimony and stopped attending church for a time. She began going again but was still struggling with things like tithing and the word of wisdom. Her bishop challenged her to fully live the gospel for four months, and she accepted the challenge. That was more than a year ago, and she is now fully active and regularly attends the temple. It wasn't enough for her to just see what the gospel looked like on paper and listen to the experiences of others. She had to "experiment upon the word" and learn for herself what the positive effects of faith could be.

Edited by gebaird
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Hello Finrock!

 

I have pondered this question for a while now due to an Atheist coined phrase regarding faith, "The belief in something with absolutely no evidence."  They use this scripture in Hebrews as evidence. This definition of faith is naive and not true.

 

Substance, is substance.  If I had a glass of water what is the substance within my glass? Water.  In other words, there is always some form of evidence to exercise faith, a hope for things not yet seen.  As other have said, our faith must be exercised in truth, otherwise our faith is false or vain.

 

My understanding of substance is:

1) The earth and all its creations give evidence to a God

2) The testimony of prophets (who have seen and know for themselves, Adam, Noah, Moses, Joseph Smith).  Their testimony of God's existence was from absolute knowledge, not faith.

3) The testimony of parents, family, and friends

4) Miracles

Edited by Anddenex
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If you're interested, treat me as a neophyte for the sake of conversation.  Think of it as an opportunity to make your meaning clearer.  Pretend with me:  

 

I'm having problems with the example.  Examine it with me as an isolated situation.  When I move a light switch it is because I observed since my earliest recollection that when my parents moved the switch a light came on.  I was conditioned a little bit like an animal in an experiment and learned to recognize the correlation.  My experience has trained me.  I would say every time I move the switch I expect the light to come on because it always has in the past.  This, to me, is merely confidence born of habit that B always follows A.

 

Now, if at some point in the past I had moved the switch and the light did not come on, I would not have drawn conclusions about light bulbs being burned out, or that a flow of electrons had been interrupted.  If my parents had not been available to seek help, I would not have known what to do and most likely I would have returned a few times to try the switch again but ultimately given up.

 

The reason I draw this distinction is that some missionaries are asking me to take an action that doesn't correlate with anything I've experienced in my life.  I see the light switch.  I see the light and the correlation between them.  I watched others do it and I saw the direct result.  These missionaries are asking to do something without anything to back up what they ask except their words.

 

(If none of this interests you, I won't mind that you don't want to bother with me).  

 

I would say that your faith in switches is misplaced and false.   It is not the switch that makes the light work.  It is the flow of electrons.   It is electrons that is the basis of true faith.  I like what you have done because it demonstrates how coming to believe a false teaching or experience may still result in faith but of the wrong thing - thus a false faith. 

 

So the more truth you gather the more faith you will have in that which is the true cause of an electric light giving light.  The switch is not the cause but the act of using the switch is the act of faith - and without that action of faith - you would never increase in any understanding of the electrons for which true faith opens to greater understanding.  But many are kept from the truth beting told or being led to false understanding of switches and not electrons.

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I would argue, yes sometimes.  What if I have faith that the the god I worship (and you deny) wants me to spare your life even though you don't believe?  If you call my faith in my god false, then logically my god's want is false.  Should I then refrain from sparing your life because no faith is no worse than my false faith? 

 

you should always seek greater understanding.  The quest for truth begins and continues with the exercise of faith.   At some point we take action based on our best understanding - this is faith.  If we discover a flaw we learn and modify our behavior to overcome the flaw.  I work as an engineer in the field of automation, rototocs and artificial intelligence.  Intelligence is defined as the ability to learn and modify behavior.  I have faith that you are intelligent - but you have to power to prove my faith true or false.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I would say that your faith in switches is misplaced and false.   It is not the switch that makes the light work.  It is the flow of electrons.   It is electrons that is the basis of true faith.  I like what you have done because it demonstrates how coming to believe a false teaching or experience may still result in faith but of the wrong thing - thus a false faith. 

 

So you are saying that I can have faith but there is true faith and false faith.  It doesn't seem, however, to make any difference what you call my faith--my faith still works.

 

Consider this.  Back in post #5 you said, “Faith is then the action of turning on the lights at your home believing that the light switch will connect the electrons and bring you light.”  In post #14 you say, “ …faith in switches is misplaced and false.   It is not the switch that makes the light work.  It is the flow of electrons.  It is electrons that is the basis of true faith.”

 

The essence of what you’ve said seems simply to be that turning switches brings me light.  You elaborate by talking about electrons, but keep in mind that (in the context of my example) I’ve never heard of electrons until now.  I have no evidence of electrons.  I don’t even know you or the credentials you offer in order for me to believe you.  When you talk about what I have faith in, and whether my faith is true or false, all I can testify of is truth as I experience it, i.e. when I turn the switch I get light.  In other words, whether I believe in light switches or electrons it doesn't matter--I get the same result.

 

By analogy then it doesn't matter whether I believe in this religion or that religion.  When I pray to God (even if you tell me my God is false) I get the same result.  It seems that when these men or those men preach to me to believe in their respective versions of God what they really want me to do is have faith in *them*.   

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