Boys can't become men because of video games and porn


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I honestly don't have a clue what this article is talking about. "Less demanding"? Physically maybe, but some games demand a lot of thought, planning, strategy, tactics, and focus. And I socialized more before I quit Mass Multiplayer Games with teams and guilds (whom you talk with almost constantly, plan missions and raids with, and discuss personal lives and interests together) than I currently do in college studying alone in my room and at work where I am the only programmer on the team.

 

This article seems incredibly biased. That's just my opinion. I agree porn certainly makes a mess of peoples expectations for relationships and sex, but I don't believe video games alter or deny reality. Most of the socially inept people I have met took up video games to find a way to communicate and escape the issues they already had in society (I took up video games because I was viciously bullied in middle school, and it often made me want to turn to violence or depression). It opens a world of opportunity for people with autism and asbergers. Games often tell interesting and complex stories, develop creative worlds, and allow the player to make decisions and consider concepts they never would have been exposed to.

 

Sounds kinda familiar

Like books

Like reading books

No one ever said reading books destroys manliness....

 

And the fact that this article tries to make a definition of what a "man" is is disgusting and non-scientific.

My fiance has been a gamer his whole life. He is intelligent, observant, artistic (best painter I know), and understands social interaction more than I do. He may think sports are a plague on mankind, but does that make him unmanly? Does the fact that he'd rather be indoors reading or enjoying a videogame rather than outside on a field make him less masculine?

Didn't even bother studying the tragedies of pornography. Most game studies show that video games have more positive influences than negative, and if the RULES are followed (Rated M is for ADULTS people, stop giving your developing 5 year old Grand Theft Auto and wondering why they think driving high speed chases sounds like fun and blaming video games) do no harm to kids or to the establishments of families. Heck, bonding time between my dad and I alternates between working in the garden to shooting Nazi Zombies on Call of Duty.

 

THANK YOU!!!!!

Everyone is so quick to judge, so quick to point out what is wrong with the world. This article is pure trash, and everyone here is so eager to agree with it. People so eager to condemn something they have little or no experience or even knowledge of, simply because some bloke with a title says so.

The fact is that video games are no different from movies, television, books, theater, or any other story telling medium - except that video games are perhaps more effective because of their inherently interactive nature. And as with all entertainment, it is not the form that matters, it is the content and how that content is used. Especially how it is used.

This applies to pornography, too. If you made pornography that was about love and romance instead of sex, you'd be describing every chick flick ever made - and don't get me started on how those have ruined women's expectations of relationships! Different content, but still used the wrong way.

And while it's obvious that modern media is definitely changing how the upcoming generations think and and act, there's no real evidence that such a change is bad - it's just different. And different CAN be good.

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Kayvex and Puf:  Perhaps you are too quick to judge the article.  Dr. Zimbardo doesn't just have a title--he was the former president of the APA.  Further, the current APA leadership finds merit in his research.  The author did not say all--or even most-- game-playing is bad.  He said that there are some who become so engrossed in it that they fail to develop mature social skills, and they find it more difficult to focus.  Further, the vast majority of those so affected are males. 

 

Why are folks here jumping on this research?  It's obvious.  This time around a secular profession agreed with our scriptural standards--it is immoral to over-indulge in the type of thinking/entertainment that glories in evil-doing.  We avoid it out of obedience to God, but find it kinda cool that their are academically sound reasons for our standards.

 

Likewise, we reject all porn because it embraces lust.  Jesus said to look at a woman with lust is to commit adultery/fornication.  Zimbardo says yeah, and it can also mess up your abilities in the real world.  Again, kinda cool.

 

To twist these findings into some old vs. young, anti-technology, anti-change kind of battle completely misses the points.  And, oh, by the way, Zimbardo could recant all of his research tomorrow, and churches would still counsel against porn and violent/sexualized video gaming.

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Kayvex and Puf:  Perhaps you are too quick to judge the article.  Dr. Zimbardo doesn't just have a title--he was the former president of the APA.  Further, the current APA leadership finds merit in his research.  The author did not say all--or even most-- game-playing is bad.  He said that there are some who become so engrossed in it that they fail to develop mature social skills, and they find it more difficult to focus.  Further, the vast majority of those so affected are males. 

 

Why are folks here jumping on this research?  It's obvious.  This time around a secular profession agreed with our scriptural standards--it is immoral to over-indulge in the type of thinking/entertainment that glories in evil-doing.  We avoid it out of obedience to God, but find it kinda cool that their are academically sound reasons for our standards.

 

Likewise, we reject all porn because it embraces lust.  Jesus said to look at a woman with lust is to commit adultery/fornication.  Zimbardo says yeah, and it can also mess up your abilities in the real world.  Again, kinda cool.

 

To twist these findings into some old vs. young, anti-technology, anti-change kind of battle completely misses the points.  And, oh, by the way, Zimbardo could recant all of his research tomorrow, and churches would still counsel against porn and violent/sexualized video gaming.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I for one have no issue with Dr Zimbardo's research per se - because I haven't seen any of it. I do take issue with the article you posted, which is a poorly written, biased piece of bantha fodder.

Now, since this article is the only exposure I've had to Dr Zimbardo, my opinion of him and his research is about on par with my opinion of this article - but, as I said, I haven't actually seen any of his research, so I'm open minded. If you shared an actual research article from a respectable peer-reviewed journal, I could form a better opinion of the research.

 

If you want a list of flaws in (the way) the research (is presented).....

1. It assumes causation based on correlation. There's no indication that any attempt was made to rule out the poor social skills as a cause of the "excessive" interest in these media rather than an effect of it.

2. It assumes that "sex, sports, and social interaction" are the pinnacles of human achievement.

3. It assumes that a lack of interest in these things is novel.

4. It assumes that a lack of interest in these things is bad.

5. There is no indication at all of any effort to exercise proper controls and rule out important variables, such as mental illness and learning disability.

6. Any indication and research pointing to the potential benefits of these media is completely ignored.

 

Frankly, the article fails. It has no citations to any of Zimbardo's research and reads more like pitch for his book than as a scholarly summary of modern research. It's an example of a biased writer catering to a biased audience, telling them what they want to hear. There is also a wealth of research that video games develop skills in many other areas - such as spatial reasoning, strategic critical thinking, analysis, perception, hand-eye coordination.... the list goes on - but I don't see any of that research on the website hosting this article.

 

And yes, there is absolutely a generation gap in the interpretation of this kind of research, and especially in the reading of this article. You might consider that the exact same kinds of things were said about television - kids were spending way too much time glued to the tube in the 60s and not developing an interest in "sex, sports, or social interaction"; and these are the same kids who grew up and had kids of their own and are now commenting on this thread arguing that video games and porn are ruining the next generation. I imagine a similar kind of "town hall" was probably called in Europe 20,000 years ago over "that kid in the next village selling those clay Venus figurines".

 

Finally, I couldn't care less what any churches say about violent video games and movies or porn. It is not the content alone, but also how it is used. First Blood is a violent and gory R-rated movie. That describes the content, but it's not the whole story. If that movie is used to mindlessly entertain people with action and blood, I'd agree that it's a bad movie. But the same movie can be used to teach people about the horrors of war, the insanity of PTSD, and the dangers of untreated mental illness - nevermind the history of the Vietnam war and the way its veterans were treated when they came home. When John Rambo breaks down at the end bawling like a baby over his friends he lost in that war.... It's a beautiful allegory of man's inhumanity to man and how spiritually destructive it is - and when used as such, to teach and instruct, it's one of the best movies ever made. Just because it's violent doesn't make it bad. Could the same apply to porn? There are people out there striving to do exactly that - to combat the mindless entertainment of pornography by using it to engage its viewers in education about relationships and human-to-human interaction.

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Could the same apply to porn? There are people out there striving to do exactly that - to combat the mindless entertainment of pornography by using it to engage its viewers in education about relationships and human-to-human interaction.

 

Funny. That's just the excuse I used to start viewing it back in the day, leading me down what became a very dark path. Secretly, I always knew better.

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Puf, you have analyzed a Christian newspaper article, written to offer a mostly Evangelical Christian audience a lay summary that celebrates an affirmation of Christian values to the standards of a peer-reviewed academic journal.  Why?  If this were a debate, it would seem you set up a straw man--a false standard, so the whole thing could quickly be dismissed.  His work was peer-reviewed, and the current APA leadership find it meritorious, and worthy of further research.  That alone suggests that many of your criticisms would not hold, if we were qualified psychologists evaluating his actual work.

 

Yes, I get the parallels with the advent of the TV, etc.  The broad comparison does not discount Zimbardo's very specific concentration on the heavy-user who demonstrates impaired concentration abilities, or the porn viewer who says that even when he's with a girl he wishes he was just watching porn.  It just seems like you're assuming Zimbardo is condemning all video game use and all online viewing, instead of what he actually addressed. 

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Funny. That's just the excuse I used to start viewing it back in the day, leading me down what became a very dark path. Secretly, I always knew better.

 

You're right. But the funny thing about a path is that you can move along it in two directions. For a person already addicted to pornography and struggling to form real relationships, they can take the same path back to the light that you followed into darkness. The difference is where you start and which direction you're going.

 

Puf, you have analyzed a Christian newspaper article, written to offer a mostly Evangelical Christian audience a lay summary that celebrates an affirmation of Christian values to the standards of a peer-reviewed academic journal.  Why?  If this were a debate, it would seem you set up a straw man--a false standard, so the whole thing could quickly be dismissed.  His work was peer-reviewed, and the current APA leadership find it meritorious, and worthy of further research.  That alone suggests that many of your criticisms would not hold, if we were qualified psychologists evaluating his actual work.

 

Yes, I get the parallels with the advent of the TV, etc.  The broad comparison does not discount Zimbardo's very specific concentration on the heavy-user who demonstrates impaired concentration abilities, or the porn viewer who says that even when he's with a girl he wishes he was just watching porn.  It just seems like you're assuming Zimbardo is condemning all video game use and all online viewing, instead of what he actually addressed. 

 

I'm an intellectual and a skeptic and a scientist. So for me it comes naturally to question research that leads to such broad claims as made by this article and echoed by the comments on this thread.

 

In case you've forgotten, the primary claim is that "Boys can't become men because of video games and porn." 

A secondary claim is that "becoming a man" involves "sex, sports and social interaction in the real world". (The lack of an Oxford comma in that quote is killing me >.<)

 

Now let's never mind the moral implications of assuming that a boy must have sex to be a man.

And the blatant sexism that all men must be interested in sports.

These can wait, for now.

 

These are not a "specific concentration on the heavy-user who demonstrates impaired concentration abilities". They are broad generalizations that are patently false. Now perhaps Zimbardo's research papers are more specific and more targeted to a specific over-use demographic, but the article does not read that way and none of the quotes from his book give any compelling reason to believe that's what Zimbardo is saying. In fact, quite the opposite, the quotes from his book and from other scientists indicate a very broad analysis.

Example?

"It seems likely that for a significant portion of the population of adolescent boys video gaming and online pornography can contribute to social isolation," said Weigle.
 
And the best caveat the article gives is this:
Weigle of AACAP also told CP that the connection was not absolute, as teenage boys could have a "limited exposure" to video games and pornography and still not suffer from social isolation.

 

This gives the impression that all video games and all porn are psychologically destructive to all adolescent boys, and the only treatment is to "limit exposure" (as if video games were radioactive >.< riiiight).

 

I'm a gamer. I know a LOT of other gamers. In fact, everyone I know is a gamer. Only one of my friends is "socially isolated". The guy is always playing video games - on his phone, on his computer. He might say 100 words in a day. Oh, and he's autistic - the video games and the social isolation are symptoms of his autism. Also, he holds a full time job (in tech support of all things! Great therapy for his autism, actually) and is happily married to my best friend.

 

So I'm sorry if it bothers you that I'm not buying into this fad. It really bothers me that you and so many others are buying into it.

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Guest MormonGator

Puf-When I was growing up there was a moral outrage against Magic Cards and Dungeons and Dragons.  I play both obsessively.  I'm sure the people mean well, but it's just something you have to learn to accept. Those arguing against gaming aren't jerks or anything. They are also entitled to their opinion. 

 

Keep gaming my friend. I'm right with you. In fact, last night my wife and I had some friends over and we played Mario Kart for about three hours. 

Edited by MormonGator
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You're right. But the funny thing about a path is that you can move along it in two directions. For a person already addicted to pornography and struggling to form real relationships, they can take the same path back to the light that you followed into darkness. The difference is where you start and which direction you're going.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. It sounds to me like a huge oversimplification .. Are you suggesting that all an addict needs to do is turn around and walk out the same way they got into the problem? Easy come, easy go. "I can quit any time I want to. I just have to follow my steps backward..." ..? Or are you trying to say something else?

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. It sounds to me like a huge oversimplification .. Are you suggesting that all an addict needs to do is turn around and walk out the same way they got into the problem? Easy come, easy go. "I can quit any time I want to. I just have to follow my steps backward..." ..? Or are you trying to say something else?

 

Hmmm I guess that could be what I'm saying. I wouldn't say it's easy, by any means. The path into addiction is generally downhill, but the path back out is pretty much always uphill. But an example might be a pack-a-day smoker. Nobody starts out smoking a pack a day; they start out smoking one with their friends or family and it escalates gradually as the addiction becomes stronger and the high from each "hit" becomes weaker. So the path to becoming a pack-a-day smoker is also the path to quitting smoking - instead of smoking one more today than they did yesterday, smoke one less. Perhaps it is an over-simplification, but I think that was my point.

 

You've obviously put more thought into my statement than I did.

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Puf... Can I call you P-Diddy?  ... Ok, I won't... ;)  .. forget I said that...  Getting my puffs mixed up... 

 

A much smarter man than myself (Albert Einstein) once said:  "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."  I think this quote very aptly applies to addiction.  There is a path in and a path out of addiction.... but, as you pointed out the way in is downhill and the way out is uphill... That little detail alone makes them vastly different paths.  Have you ever tried to ski uphill?  Not quite as fun as skiing downhill... Can you see where I'm going with this?  One could counter argue that side-stepping up a mountain in skis has benefits... one build's muscle, sees beautiful scenery along the way, albeit, while gasping for breath.. lol...  To which I'd say, ok, that's one of the easier addictions ... maybe take some work to overcome, but do-able... But not all addictions are created equal or effect people equally.  For some or maybe many, an addiction might prove to be more like base jumping off top of El Capitan, perhaps even without a wing suit or parachute.  Maybe quite a rush for a few seconds... But how many of those jumpers will get up and be able to climb back up after the initial thrill ride is over?  

 

 

Ok... so, very different path going down than going back up...  and I say this from sad experience.  

Edited by theSQUIDSTER
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Puf... Can I call you P-Diddy?  ... Ok, I won't... ;)  .. forget I said that...  Getting my puffs mixed up... 

 

A much smarter man than myself (Albert Einstein) once said:  "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."  I think this quote very aptly applies to addiction.  There is a path in and a path out of addiction.... but, as you pointed out the way in is downhill and the way out is uphill... That little detail alone makes them vastly different paths.  Have you ever tried to ski uphill?  Not quite as fun as skiing downhill... Can you see where I'm going with this?  One could counter argue that side-stepping up a mountain in skis has benefits... one build's muscle, sees beautiful scenery along the way, albeit, while gasping for breath.. lol...  To which I'd say, ok, that's one of the easier addictions ... maybe take some work to overcome, but do-able... But not all addictions are created equal or effect people equally.  For some or maybe many, an addiction might prove to be more like base jumping off top of El Capitan, perhaps even without a wing suit or parachute.  Maybe quite a rush for a few seconds... But how many of those jumpers will get up and be able to climb back up after the initial thrill ride is over?  

 

 

Ok... so, very different path going down than going back up...  and I say this from sad experience.  

 

I think we're getting wrapped around the axle over semantics and broken metaphors. Well, I like the skiing one, so let's use that. 

Skiing down a hill is not the same as walking up the hill. But it's still the same hill. Probably the exact same run. Don't confuse the path with which direction you're moving. The straight and narrow way to the Savior is also the straight and narrow way away from Him - depending on which direction you choose to walk.

 

Nobody wakes up one morning going "Oh crap! Today I'm addicted to pornography!" It happens one step at a time: Yesterday I was looking at pictures, today I'm watching videos. Reverse the direction - tomorrow, exercise some self control and don't watch any videos.

 

Nobody wakes up one morning going "Oh noes! I smoke a pack of cigarettes a day!" It happens one step at a time. Yesterday I smoked 4 cigarettes, today I smoked 6. Reverse the direction - tomorrow, exercise some self control and only smoke 4.

I'm not saying that you have to go back up the same path. I'm saying that you can. A dozen different ski runs converge at the bottom of the hill, and you can get back to the top of the hill using any one of them - including the one that brought you down.

And only my closest friends call me p-diddy ;)

Edited by puf_the_majic_dragon
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Nobody wakes up one morning going "Oh crap! Today I'm addicted to pornography!" It happens one step at a time: Yesterday I was looking at pictures, today I'm watching videos. Reverse the direction - tomorrow, exercise some self control and don't watch any videos.

 

Nobody wakes up one morning going "Oh noes! I smoke a pack of cigarettes a day!" It happens one step at a time. Yesterday I smoked 4 cigarettes, today I smoked 6. Reverse the direction - tomorrow, exercise some self control and only smoke 4.

 

It's kind interesting that you describe it this way.... In my experience addiction, doesn't happen all at once, but in so many respects it sure feels like it does.  By the time you start to realize you might be an addict it comes as a surprise and a shock, usually with attendant thoughts or comments eerily similar to the ones you gave in your example...  

 

"Oh crap!  Am I addicted to porn?!  How lame is that?!  No!  I just gotta stop looking.. stop going to those websites... I'll stop... it's just that I'm so freakin' BORED!   TV sucks.. my online games are all old... nothing cool's being released ....all the same old crap...  I'm so bored... what am I gonna do this afternoon? ... ok, so just this one more look won't make that much difference....  I'll get it out of my system once and for all... This is the last time though.... ... ....  Wow... am I'm smoking a pack a day?...  It's still not that bigga deal, but I need to start cutting back.... it's just that I'm so stressed after that fiasco at work today... I just can't deal with this right now.... one last smoke to calm my nerves and I'll start cutting back tomorrow... I'll start for real by skippping my afternoon smoke break tomorrow... ya, I still got this.. ..... .....  ..so I'm going through my roommate's stuff since.... I just don't get why he won't spot me on this one...  He knows I get paid Friday... I should'a asked for a 50 and then worked down to a 20...  Just one stupid 20!  If I don't score some herbs soon I'm gonna go crazy.... Besides, he kinda does that to me.. always pushing my buttons... what kinda roommate does that?   I thought we were friends!  It's not like I won't ever pay him back.. My promise is good.  I'm getting paid this Friday... that's just two days!... It's like he's forcing me into doing this because he's so stingy... 20 bucks isn't that much!.... so... anyway I'll get paid and put the cash back into his drawer and he probably won't even miss it...  He'll just think he misplaced it for a day or two... .... .... .... ..... .....  Shoot!  What am I doing?  I'm not a dishonest person... .This isn't really me...   ... Why the heck is this happening to me?  It's not like I don't have will-power... ok, so it's a small set-back... that's all... I still got this...  "   ... and on it goes... the downward spiral...  

 

It's a lot like this.

Edited by theSQUIDSTER
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Regarding video games, movies, music, television, etc.----as disciples of Christ we should all be a good deal more discriminating than we are. 

 

One of my favorite quotes came from a returned missionary who got it from his mission president who got it from an apostle. He said this: "If something isn’t appropriate for us to do, it isn’t appropriate for us to be entertained by it."

 

I always taught my children that if they wouldn't feel comfortable inviting the Savior to sit down with them to watch a particular movie or television program, or to play a particular game, or listen to a particular song---that should be a signal to them that whatever it is they're watching, playing or listening to is simply not appropriate and should be avoided.

Edited by Capitalist_Oinker
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What I notice is the article spells out excessive use of a specific type of video game, people take that and turn it around into "My kid played doom once and that's why he's a serial killer today"

Speaking from the perspective of a husband and father.

I have about the same opinion of TV as most do of video games. I think the author however has merit. We do over indulge in entertainment. Way to many fritter away hours on hours on video games.

There is a difference between playing Mario Kart with your family and logging into WoW, grinding out dailies, weeklies, farming mats for gold/potions/buff food, planning with your guild, showing up to scheduled raids which take hours to complete. Yes it does take planning and execution, it is a skillful game. It's just too all enveloping of time.

That my friend is more than a full time hobby. Very little of which can be enjoyed with your family. Play an RPG a little? Fine. Get some frags on Counter Strike? Great! But don't get lost in your virtual world. You have a family that needs your time.


I play minecraft with my son for a few hours in a week. I just canceled my WoW subscription after renewing it last month, I saw how much of my time disappeared. We have 2 kids, and we are fostering our niece and two nephews, I can't afford the time that game takes. I don't think anyone can afford the time MMO's take. I see why they are the target of so much hate.

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It's not often that the former president of the American Psychological Association makes the front page of The Christian Post, but this article is so spot on! http://www.christianpost.com/news/porn-and-world-of-warcraft-video-games-digitally-rewire-boys-minds-into-manhood-meltdown-says-distinguished-psychologist-139034/

Now to grumble a bit. Why is it that when we preach this from the pulpit we're just meddling, prudish religious tyrants? :cool:

All the more reason to rejoice that repentance is available.
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