The Second Civil War

[mirkwood]

I agree with you and I apologize if anything I said was ever taken personal. It is not my intention. I may disagree at times with various posters but I everyone here has always made me think. Again, I apologize if I ever offended anyone. 

 

I was not referring to you, though we have disagreed in the past.

[Guest MormonGator]

I was not referring to you, though we have disagreed in the past.

 I realized that right after I posted. I'm capable of being quite slow sometimes. I'm not Harvard material, that's for sure. 

[Blackmarch]

oi

[Crypto]

I'm a little curious if there is a link to the source material.

(Hopefully i'm not spoiling all the fun we are having in here)

Edited May 29, 2015 by Crypto

[NeuroTypical]

Seems like I'm hearing two viewpoints here:

 

* We're in the end times, and current events predict a swiftly arriving civil war and WWIII.

* It can't happen here, there's no impending war, or if there is, it won't impact America (me) much.

 

I'd like to advocate for a third viewpoint:

* War and change are regularly recurring cycles in our human existence, and whether it's the end times or not, there's no reason to believe it won't come back to America.  "It hasn't happened in 4 generations" isn't a reason, it's wishful thinking.  "History doesn't always repeat itself" isn't true, and is more wishful thinking.

 

 

Now, I don't rightly know whether it's end times or not.  And I don't know if civil war or WWIII is coming or not.  But a quick question for folks who don't see any reason to be concerned:

 

How many armed ISIS militants have carried out attacks on American soil?  (Hint - the answer is larger than zero)

[Guest MormonGator]

Seems like I'm hearing two viewpoints here:

 

* We're in the end times, and current events predict a swiftly arriving civil war and WWIII.

* It can't happen here, there's no impending war, or if there is, it won't impact America (me) much.

 

I'd like to advocate for a third viewpoint:

* War and change are regularly recurring cycles in our human existence, and whether it's the end times or not, there's no reason to believe it won't come back to America.  "It hasn't happened in 4 generations" isn't a reason, it's wishful thinking.  "History doesn't always repeat itself" isn't true, and is more wishful thinking.

 

 

Now, I don't rightly know whether it's end times or not.  And I don't know if civil war or WWIII is coming or not.  But a quick question for folks who don't see any reason to be concerned:

 

How many armed ISIS militants have carried out attacks on American soil?  (Hint - the answer is larger than zero)

 Very well said. 

 

I understand we have real threats to the country and they can be very serious. That said, I choose not live in fear of them because I think that's letting the terrorists win. 

 

I have a touch of fatalism. If it happens and there is an attack, all I can say is hope I read my Book of Mormon in the morning. 

[NeuroTypical]

"I understand we have real threats to the country and they can be very serious. That said, I choose not live in fear of them because I think that's letting the terrorists win."

 

 

Oh, totally agreed.  Living in fear is stupid.  But surely one can predict, expect, and even prepare for bad things happening without fear, can't one?   D&C 38 specifically addresses the issue with the statement "if ye are prepared ye shall not fear".

 

"I have a touch of fatalism. If it happens and there is an attack, all I can say is hope I read my Book of Mormon in the morning."

 

That's fair.  The BoM contains records of both peaceful people who refused to fight, and valiant warriors who rise to oppose the challenge of the times.  Plenty of room in our temples for both types of people to sit next to each other.  As long as the first kind stays out of the way of the second kind, I'm good. :)

 

Just a coincidence, but just this morning I was walking through this issue with my 11 year old.  We walked through what should happen in a number of different situations, from hearing gunfire off in the distance, to seeing a bad guy burst through a door and there's nowhere to hide.  Just as the scripture promises, she really wasn't the least bit afraid.

Edited May 29, 2015 by NeuroTypical

[Guest MormonGator]

 

 

That's fair.  The BoM contains records of both pacifist people who refused to fight, and valiant warriors who rise to oppose the challenge of the times.  Plenty of room in our temples for both types of people to sit next to each other.  As long as the first kind stays out of the way of the second kind, I'm good. :)

Oh I'll certainly fight for what I believe in-I'm no pacifist in the least.  

[mirkwood]

I'm a little curious if there is a link to the source material.

(Hopefully i'm not spoiling all the fun we are having in here)

 

To which information?

[Crypto]

To which information?

 

Post #1 There is a lot there. In particular the first quote.

[omegaseamaster75]

Personal attacks make you more credible.  Nicely played.

Which personal attack and on whom would that be? Please be very specific.

[Guest MormonGator]

This is all very silly, there will be no 2nd civil war and WWIII who knows, but it won't be on our shores.

 

Take up golf or something guys....jeez

Maybe not a personal attack but at the very least a rude and sarcastic comment. 

 

Sorry my friend, hate to sound like a prude but it was sort of rude to say. 

Edited May 29, 2015 by MormonGator

[omegaseamaster75]

Prophetic statements indicate both a second civil war and another world war, probably two more.  If you don't like the topic and/or it makes you uncomfortable feel free to check out of this thread.

Which prophetic statements? Please be specific and explain how they relate to current events. 

 

Bad things happen all the time, and we should be prepared for them as counseled by our leaders. When these topics come up though it's always about the "end of days are just around the corner", the "US economy is going to collapse", etc, etc. I'm not saying that we should stick our heads in the sand and not have our storage and be prepared for natural disasters, have financial reserves, etc. We should have all of those things and then live our lives. "Time" is a relative thing and we do not know nor can anyone predict the second coming.

Edited May 29, 2015 by omegaseamaster75

[mdfxdb]

the "end of days" were predicted during the Prophet Joseph Smith's lifetime.......guess what..It didn't happen.  

 

We are definitely in the end of days, but to point at any one event/coming event, and to state that "this is it" is presumptuous and naive.  Hindsight is always 20/20, and likely we won't realize what has happened until it's all over, unless one of the prophets declares it as the seminal event, which wont likely happen...

[Just_A_Guy]

 Hindsight is always 20/20, and likely we won't realize what has happened until it's all over, unless one of the prophets declares it as the seminal event, which wont likely happen...

 

Well . . . there was that one time that President Hinckley declared Joel's vision fulfilled . . .

 

(But then again, so did Peter . . .)

[Average Joe]

I don't believe any of these silly stories the way you are taking them.

They are mostly against the scripture prophecies the way many of you seem to interpret them.

AJs comments have the way of it. I don't believe in any future civil war in the US. WWIII could happen, but depending on how one sees current events, maybe it's happening now. The War on Terror is certainly global.

 

The Book of Mormon says your wrong.

 

3 Nephi Chapter 21

Israel will be gathered when the Book of Mormon comes forth—The Gentiles will be established as a free people in America—They will be saved if they believe and obey; otherwise, they will be cut off and destroyed—Israel will build the New Jerusalem, and the lost tribes will return. About A.D. 34.

 

 

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

 

 12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

 

 13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

 

 14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

 

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

 

 16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;

 

 17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;

 

 18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.

 

 20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

 

 21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.

 

////

 

12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

 

Who are the Lord's people who are a remnant of Jacob? Native Americans and Hispanic Americans, the descendants of the Lamanites. So when you watch or read the news about open borders what you are witnessing is the the unfolding of prophesy - the remnant of Jacob who the Lord is placing in the midst of the Gentiles, who as the chapter heading states: have been established as a free people in America...Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles [Americans] except they repent. 

Edited May 30, 2015 by Average Joe

[Average Joe]

This is all very silly, there will be no 2nd civil war and WWIII who knows, but it won't be on our shores.

 

Take up golf or something guys....jeez

 

You either have not read or have not understood 3 Nephi chapter 21. Take some time off away from the links and give it a prayerful read.

[Average Joe]

I'm a little curious if there is a link to the source material.

(Hopefully i'm not spoiling all the fun we are having in here)

 

Google: Second Great Rebellion or Chicago Quote - A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives.

 

Next Google: An interview by Dr. Poulson with David Whitmer.

 

Pick whichever sources seem the most or least reputable to you, whichever you prefer.

 

Once you have done that prayerfully read 3 Nephi chapter 21 including the chapter heading. What does it say is going to happen to an unrepentant America?

Edited May 31, 2015 by Average Joe

[Average Joe]

Well . . . there was that one time that President Hinckley declared Joel's vision fulfilled . . .

 

(But then again, so did Peter . . .)

 

scriptures may have two (or more) meanings such as  Isaiah 14:

 

12   How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13   For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14   I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15   Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

 

Here Lucifer is symbolic of both Satan and the king of Babylon.

 

With Joel: 

 

“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

 

“And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

 

“And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

 

“The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come." (Joel 2:28–31).

 

The words "And it shall come to pass afterward" find fulfillment in the fact that both Peter and President Hinckley lived in times when the fullness of the gospel was restored with all its authority and ordinances. Peter in the last days before the Great Apostasy and G.B.H. in the last days before the second coming. 

 

“…the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy” (Rev. 19:10). Visions and dreams are gifts of the spirit which according to Job chapter 33:

 

 15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;

 

 16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

 

 17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.

 

 18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

 

Scriptures are often referred to as "a type of things to come" as in a current incident is a type of a future incident such Abinadi telling king Noah whatever punishment was given to him would be returned on those inflicting the punishment. 

 

Just because two prophets in different eras said a scripture was fulfilled doesn't make one wrong and the other right.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Average Joe

[Average Joe]

Not only does 3 Nephi chapter 21[vs 12] speak of a remnant of Jacob" being in the midst of the Gentiles/Americans, "as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver."

 

The prophecy given 25 December 1832 reads [D&C 87]

:

1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

 

2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

 

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

 

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

 

5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants [of Jacob]  who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

 

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

 

7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.

 

8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen. 

 

However, the prophecy does not tie slave rebellions directly to the Civil War. After discussing the call on other nations for assistance, the prophecy reads:

 

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.(D&C 87:4)

 

The phrase "it came to pass," and related forms generally indicates a transition in subject or time. The prophecy is clear that the revolt of slaves will come "after many days," which in scriptural language (which sees Jesus' second coming as "near," and "even at the door") generally suggests a fairly long period of time.

 

Elder Joseph L. Wirthlin suggested a further fulfillment: “I believe, brethren and sisters, that it was intended that this referred to slaves all over the world.” Elder Wirthlin mentioned specifically the inhabitants of the former Soviet Union and its satellites and other parts of the world “where the rights and the privilege to worship God and to come to a knowledge that Jesus Christ is his Son is denied them” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1958, p. 32).

[Crypto]

Google:

I did initially do a quick google search, failing to find any sources I deem with the up most credibility, is why I asked.

[omegaseamaster75]

 

Who are the Lord's people who are a remnant of Jacob? Native Americans and Hispanic Americans, the descendants of the Lamanites. So when you watch or read the news about open borders what you are witnessing is the the unfolding of prophesy - the remnant of Jacob who the Lord is placing in the midst of the Gentiles, who as the chapter heading states: have been established as a free people in America...Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles [Americans] except they repent. 

 

You think that that native Americans and Hispanic Americans are the Lamanites. Really? All of them?

 

When I watch and read the news about the boarders opening I don't read anything extra into it.

 

wo be unto the Gentiles (americans)? you might be reading a little to much in to that one also.

[Blackmarch]

I wouldn't be surprised if most of them have some sort of relation to them. a couple thousand years is enough time for quite a bit of mixing.

[omegaseamaster75]

I wouldn't be surprised if most of them have some sort of relation to them. a couple thousand years is enough time for quite a bit of mixing.

I wouldn't say most at all. I would say some to few....

[Average Joe]

You think that that native Americans and Hispanic Americans are the Lamanites. Really? All of them?

 

When I watch and read the news about the boarders opening I don't read anything extra into it.

 

wo be unto the Gentiles (americans)? you might be reading a little to much in to that one also.

 

I'm thinking that perhaps you read too little. Since you apparently don't want to concede that the gentiles in America are Americans or that the native Americans are of Lamanite descent perhaps reading this will help your education: "A Mission to the Lamanites."