LDS in the Terrestial and Telestial Kingdoms


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Just a couple thoughts about what is mentioned concerning the LDS of the terrestial and telestial kingdoms in D&C 76.

 

Terrestial

 

v. 79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

 

Apparently these are not valiant [showing courage or determination] in church service and so the question becomes, what is valiance – serving until one’s caling and election is made sure?

 

Telestial

 

v. 101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

 

Marrying outside the covenant or not marrying [in the covenant even] when opportunity is present is enough to also keep one out of the Terrestial kingdom. If commission of sexual transgression [fornication and adultery] are like unto murder in seriousness, not being married in the everlasting covenant seems to be the sin of omission side of the coin. Any thoughts?

Edited by Average Joe
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The everlasting covenant is not marriage. Marriage is an order of that covenant -- the highest order. The covenant is the gospel, and all the ordinances therein -- beginning with baptism.

 

But it does lead to the question, can one reject a portion of the covenant without rejecting the whole? I'll take baptism but no thanks on the gift of the Holy Ghost....etc...?

 

The idea that those who are righteous otherwise but choose (through distinct and conscious choice) to reject the marriage covenant will qualify for the lower levels of the Celestial kingdom has never made much sense to me.

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The idea that those who are righteous otherwise but choose (through distinct and conscious choice) to reject the marriage covenant will qualify for the lower levels of the Celestial kingdom has never made much sense to me.

 

Well, it was the prime spiritual directive mentioned in creation:

 

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth…” (Gen. 1:27-28).

Edited by Average Joe
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The everlasting covenant is not marriage. Marriage is an order of that covenant -- the highest order. The covenant is the gospel, and all the ordinances therein -- beginning with baptism.

 

I considered this in the light of what it said about the terrestrial kingdom. Obviously they received baptism for membership. Did they reject receiving the priesthood? Possibly. A lack of valiance in it leads one to the terrestrial kingdom. But again, rejecting the priesthood or endowment is ultimately rejecting the opportunity for the marriage covenant. Just some thoughts I had... 

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The term new and everlasting covenant is used frequently throughout the Doctrine and Covenants. President Joseph Fielding Smith gave the following definition of it:


 


“The new and everlasting covenant is the fulness of the gospel. It is composed of ‘All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations’ that are sealed upon members of the Church by the Holy Spirit of promise, or the Holy Ghost, by the authority of the President of the Church who holds the keys. The President of the Church holds the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood. He delegates authority to others and authorizes them to perform the sacred ordinances of the priesthood.


 


“Marriage for eternity is a new and everlasting covenant. Baptism is also a new and everlasting covenant, and likewise ordination to the priesthood, and every other covenant is everlasting and a part of the new and everlasting covenant which embraces all things.” (Answers to Gospel Questions, 1:65.)


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“Marriage for eternity is a new and everlasting covenant. Baptism is also a new and everlasting covenant, and likewise ordination to the priesthood, and every other covenant is everlasting and a part of the new and everlasting covenant which embraces all things.” (Answers to Gospel Questions, 1:65.)

 

 

They are in essence building blocks, one adding upon the other with baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost when one is confirmed a member being the only ordinances we are sure are accomplished by LDS members assigned telestial glory.

 

Again, I was looking at D&C 76:101 "neither the [singular/all encompassing] everlasting covenant." as meaning the ultimate summation of - temple marriage - being the largest reason for being assigned a telestial glory...but this is just conjecture on my part.

Edited by Average Joe
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Just a couple thoughts about what is mentioned concerning the LDS of the terrestial and telestial kingdoms in D&C 76.

 

Terrestial

 

v. 79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

 

Apparently these are not valiant [showing courage or determination] in church service and so the question becomes, what is valiance – serving until one’s caling and election is made sure?

 

Telestial

 

v. 101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

 

Marrying outside the covenant or not marrying [in the covenant even] when opportunity is present is enough to also keep one out of the Terrestial kingdom. If commission of sexual transgression [fornication and adultery] are like unto murder in seriousness, not being married in the everlasting covenant seems to be the sin of omission side of the coin. Any thoughts?

in layman terms

terrestrial - those who are willing to do some but not all that God asks.

Telestial - those who reject both god and Christ until the end.

outer darkness - for those who will still prefer evils over any acceptance of Christ and God whatsoever, even after all torment and anguish they should suffer.

fornication and adultery can stick you into any of those three. - it really depends on how repentant and honest you are.

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fornication and adultery can stick you into any of those three. - it really depends on how repentant and honest you are.

 

This is true. However, I was going by D&C 76:103 [which I had not included in my original post] which referred to those of the telestial kingdom as:

 

"These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie".

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Outsider observation:  The Celestial Kingdom is going to be really small, and those in the exaltation even fewer.  The Terrestial Kingdom, with its mix of lax LDS, many/most Catholics and Protestants, and probably a good many other religious folks, is going to be quite large.  The Telestial Kingdom will be well populated, but probably smaller than the Terrestial one.  And the outer darkness, may be like the Celestial Kingdom, or even smaller.  Sorta like an eternal bell curve.  Do I have this right?

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Outsider observation:  The Celestial Kingdom is going to be really small, and those in the exaltation even fewer.  The Terrestial Kingdom, with its mix of lax LDS, many/most Catholics and Protestants, and probably a good many other religious folks, is going to be quite large.  The Telestial Kingdom will be well populated, but probably smaller than the Terrestial one.  And the outer darkness, may be like the Celestial Kingdom, or even smaller.  Sorta like an eternal bell curve.  Do I have this right?

Close but not exactly. 

 

We believe that all children who died under 8 years old are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom, and we believe that all who died without accountability [the mental capacity of an 8 year old] are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom.

 

We also believed that all [regardless of religion or lack thereof] who would have accepted the gospel with all their heart if they had been able to hear it will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. 

 

We believe that after death all who have lived on earth will be taught the principles of the gospel and have the ordinances preformed for them by proxy - for them to accept or reject, their choice - after which they will be assigned the kingdom their lives merit. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed on their behalf (having not rejected the gospel in life) and have lived a life worthy of the Celestial Kingdom shall enter into it.  

 

Therefore the celestial kingdom may not be as small as we tend to think,

Edited by Average Joe
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Outsider observation:  The Celestial Kingdom is going to be really small, and those in the exaltation even fewer.  The Terrestial Kingdom, with its mix of lax LDS, many/most Catholics and Protestants, and probably a good many other religious folks, is going to be quite large.  The Telestial Kingdom will be well populated, but probably smaller than the Terrestial one.  And the outer darkness, may be like the Celestial Kingdom, or even smaller.  Sorta like an eternal bell curve.  Do I have this right?

 

Eh. I don't know. One of the things I try studiously to avoid is speculating on how many people might gain exaltation. I hope it's a far larger number than many of us expect; but frankly, I'm so deeply involved in trying to get myself in a position to enjoy such a blessing instead of shrieking in terror at the contemplation of the idea of dwelling in God's presence, that I really don't have much mental space left over to mull what sort of percentage might be found there.

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Here is what I have always been taught regarding the kingdoms mixed in with some speculation:

Celestial kingdom: becoming temple worthy and enduring to the end. Also for non members anyone who did not have a fair chance to accept the gospel in this life but who does so after death. What constitutes a "fair chance" is open to debate. I personally hope and believe that God will have mercy on those who did not join the church because they sincerely believed in their own religion (here's looking at you Prison Chaplain). Maybe 20% of humanity?

Terrestrial kingdom: being Mormon but not enduring to the end while being temple worthy. I kind of wonder if a lot of Mormons who cannot overcome pornography in this life (which I have heard may be a quarter of active LDS men- don't know if that is true or not) risk ending up here, as well as people who never come to church and just don't care that much but are otherwise pretty decent. I personally think many or even most non-Mormon Americans who we would describe as basically good people will end up here, even if they commit some serious sins such as fornication, on the basis that they do not know any better. Maybe 40% of humanity?

Telestial - Mormons who commit very serious sins without repenting (e.g. adultery after going to the temple). Also very very wicked people in the world (e.g. human traffickers, Isis members, drug dealers, etc). Keep in mind there have been times when large numbers of people have stooped to this level (Nazi Germany, the Old South and everyone in Moroni's day come to mind).Maybe 40% of humanity?

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To be fully honest sometimes I wonder if I am on the line between celestial and terrestrial. I have a temple recommend and I live the commandments and I am active and read the scriptures, but I tend to have to really kick myself to pay attention in church (I fall asleep a lot) and magnify my callings. I guess I have a bit of a bad attitude that needs adjusting...

Edited by DoctorLemon
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To be fully honest sometimes I wonder if I am on the line between celestial and terrestrial.

 

In my opinion, there is no "line between celestial and terrestrial". There is an unbridgeable gulf. I do not believe the difference between the two is a difference of quantity or amount, but rather of quality or type. I do not believe that anyone throughout all eternity will ever say, "Oh, if only I had done my home teaching that one time in October, I would have Made It®!"

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I like Vort's answer.  Even though I only believe in one heavenly kingdom (though with varying degrees of reward/responsibility), the basic concept that where we end up in eternity will never be a close call, is crucial.  When judgment is rendered there will be no objections, no cries of foul, no appeals.  All we see and know that God was good, just and merciful. 

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Over the last few years my view has changed on what it means to be valiant.  I feel that an individual will make it to the celestial kingdom if they do not "give up."  What that means, is that we strive to do our best to live the Gospel and magnify it.  Our best will vary, and for some may simply be demonstrated by an addicted and destroyed life that makes a passing thought to God which snowballs with many ups and many downs to a state of continuing to push for following God regardless of how many times he/she slips up and fails.  Valiance as I see it is throwing in the towel once one has received the testimony of Jesus.

 

The testimony of Jesus also, at least to me, seems to be more than a simple testimony of knowledge that Jesus is the Son of God.  The testimony that seems to be indicated in D&C 76 is one that entrenches itself deeply into the soul and governs how one acts so that it is the guiding principle of that persons life.  It allows for the drive that I indicated in the above paragraph so one does not give up, because the inherent nature of the individual is changed to not give up. 

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To be fully honest sometimes I wonder if I am on the line between celestial and terrestrial. I have a temple recommend and I live the commandments and I am active and read the scriptures, but I tend to have to really kick myself to pay attention in church (I fall asleep a lot) and magnify my callings. I guess I have a bit of a bad attitude that needs adjusting...

 

we all struggle in our own areas but your reply touched on a point I had often wondered about lately. How many of us are just "living the gospel" (going through the correct motions) and how many are "living the gospel" with the desire to see our callings and elections made sure...?

 

Obedience is good. Obedience coupled with desire is better. Just a thought I've been having...or as Joseph Smith put it:

 

"After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, which is the first comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other comforter, which the Lord has promised the Saints." Joseph Smith – TPJS, p. 150.

Edited by Average Joe
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Outsider observation:  The Celestial Kingdom is going to be really small, and those in the exaltation even fewer.  The Terrestial Kingdom, with its mix of lax LDS, many/most Catholics and Protestants, and probably a good many other religious folks, is going to be quite large.  The Telestial Kingdom will be well populated, but probably smaller than the Terrestial one.  And the outer darkness, may be like the Celestial Kingdom, or even smaller.  Sorta like an eternal bell curve.  Do I have this right?

going by judging how people tend to be in this life, it would be a sensible conclusion to me. The obvious monkey wrench is that God (through Christ) provides a means for people to repent and that is in effect even after this life.

Edited by Blackmarch
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we all struggle in our own areas but your reply touched on a point I had often wondered about lately. How many of us are just "living the gospel" (going through the correct motions) and how many are "living the gospel" with the desire to see our callings and elections made sure...?

 

Obedience is good. Obedience coupled with desire is better. Just a thought I've been having...or as Joseph Smith put it:

 

"After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, which is the first comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other comforter, which the Lord has promised the Saints." Joseph Smith – TPJS, p. 150.

Yes, making our calling and election sure is a vital part of entering into the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom. Here are Nephi's words with quotes added for clarity, "Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: 'Ye shall have eternal life'" (2 Ne 31:20 italics and quotes added). Now in particular notice the word "shall", this is not the very end the journey but a vital step on the way to eternal life. Nephi here is talking about the words of revelation we must receive from the Father before entering into the kingdom, in other words our calling and election made sure.

 

These words are the Father confirming the promise entered into at baptism (see 2 Ne 31:18). After this moment we are sealed up unto eternal life and not before. After all, a person cannot be saved in ignorance and one must know his standing before God if he is to enter the kingdom (see D&C 131:5-6). The physical forms are important but we must not be satisfied or think our work is complete if we have not been sealed up unto eternal life by the Holy Spirit of promise.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

Good Evening james12! I hope you are well. :)

 

Does enduring to the end in your opinion mean enduring to the end of our probationary period, which may or may not be the end of our mortal life? What I mean is that it seems that enduring to the end does not necessarily mean enduring until our mortal life is over, but that we are being asked to endure in the way prescribed until the end of our testing/probationary period that is required for us to endure before the Father seals us up to Himself.

 

In the past I have read the passage of scripture in 2 Ne 31:20 to mean that it necessarily means enduring to the end of mortality, but it seems that this isn't exactly the case or what is being said.

 

-Finrock

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Good Evening james12! I hope you are well. :)

 

Does enduring to the end in your opinion mean enduring to the end of our probationary period, which may or may not be the end of our mortal life? What I mean is that it seems that enduring to the end does not necessarily mean enduring until our mortal life is over, but that we are being asked to endure in the way prescribed until the end of our testing/probationary period that is required for us to endure before the Father seals us up to Himself.

 

In the past I have read the passage of scripture in 2 Ne 31:20 to mean that it necessarily means enduring to the end of mortality, but it seems that this isn't exactly the case or what is being said.

 

-Finrock

Yes, death is a door but it is not an end. Nephi says, "I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation" (2 Ne 33:9). For some, like Alma, or the three Nephites, their probationary period ended before they partook of death. For others their probationary period continues into the spirit world and will only end when they are brought before the judgement bar.

 

Now, regarding our calling and election. It is a promise received through the Holy Ghost and I believe it is worth every effort. However, from what I have learned, our work is not done at such a point, our probation does not end. The Lord has told us what we will receive but we have not yet obtained eternal life. Rather, we have gained a more sure witness and received added light of the second Comforter, "Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; ...This comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom. (D&C 88:3-4).  Through the second comforter we will have added strength, clarity of vision and a more abiding peace in our hearts but we must continue to grow and learn. Not until we can rend the veil of our unbelief and walk back in all humility to the Father will our probation end. 

Edited by james12
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I am of a much different opinion and have faith in the work and glory of our Father in heaven.  My father would tell me - "You are today what you have spent and struggled for an eternity becoming."  Then he would say, "If you want to change anything all you have to do is make that change starting now."

 

It is my observation that what happens to us as mortals is not to wash us out of the program - but rather to prepare and teach us to better understand and appreciate the program. 

 

Also I do not understand why some are worried - it is my impression that there is no one here that is so far from the way or path home that they cannot make it and I honestly do not believe that the Celestial Kingdom is all that far away.

Edited by Traveler
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Also - I do not believe that disagreeing with me disqualifies any one for the Celestial Kingdom.  To be honest - I do not post on this forum to try to convince anyone that they are less qualified than myself - but to demonstrate that despite my flaws - I plan to be in the highest level of the Celestial kingdom - and if I can - anybody can.

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