Rehabilitation in the Spirit world

[priesthoodpower]

Does anyone in here believe that there will be rehabilitation in the spirit world like how we have here on earth?

Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[priesthoodpower]

I have recently become interested in this topic because ever since I was a youth up until 2 years ago I was (off & on) addicted to porn.

 

at 19 I served an honorable mission (struggled with porn while in the field), came home and married in the temple and still struggled with porn, it didnt matter how hard I tried I just couldnt resist. Two years ago when I turned 37 I think my testosterone levels plummeted, I no longer crave sex and porn is no longer a temptation.

 

Had for some reason I died when I was 33yrs old with a porn addiction would that have cemented my place in heaven? Then that would have been unfair because now that Im 39 yrs old I have overcome that addiction because of a biological change in my body.

 

Now what if in 2030 science finds a way to make that biological change accesible via a pill? I would have certainly taken that pill while on my mission and avoided all that sin. Would God not recognize my intent although my actions were sinful?

[Average Joe]

A man may receive the priesthood and all its privileges and blessings, but until he learns to overcome the flesh, his temper, his tongue, his disposition to indulge in the things God has forbidden, he cannot come into the celestial kingdom of God-he must overcome either in this life or in the life to come. But this life is the time in which men are to repent. Do not let any of us imagine that we can go down to the grave not having overcome the corruptions of the flesh and then lose in the grave all our sins and evil tendencies. They will be with us. They will be with the spirit when separated from the body.

 

It is my judgment that any man or woman can do more to conform to the laws of God in one year in this life than they could in ten years when they are dead. The spirit only can repent and change, and then the battle has to go forward with the flesh afterwards. It is much easier to overcome and serve the Lord when both flesh and spirit are combined as one. This is the time when men are more pliable and susceptible. When clay is pliable, it is much easier to change than when it gets hard and sets.

 

"The Three Degrees of Glory", Elder Melvin J. Ballard (Of the Council of the Twelve Apostles) - (Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, p.234-261, Delivered at the Ogden Tabernacle )

[Phomjachana]

I don't believe we are judged based on what we've done as much as our attitude and disposition.  Everyone has something they struggle with and have not completely overcome.  It's a weakness to keep us humble and turn to the Lord. Take for instance a man who has been faithful for years, made huge sacrifices to follow the Lord, and then misses church the last 2 weeks of his life and then gets in a car crash.  Do you think those 2 sins of not going to Church will keep him out? No, unless you live by the law of justice which then of course he wouldn't be going.  I liken it to the talk given that suggests that when we take the sacrament, we do not need to have completed the repentance process, but that we are in it, and that we are striving to be better than we were the last time we took it.  I see it as a similar thing with our lives.  If our lives have been striving to repent and do better then our heart is striving to improve our view of God and follow him.  Isn't that the essence of a Celestial life?

[Phomjachana]

I should also note that the example of the man above, is a real story of someone I know.

[The Folk Prophet]

What kind of "faithful" man misses church in the name of "sin"? If he is/was truly faithful, is it not logical to presume that for whatever reason he missed church, it wasn't sinful? Would one who is truly converted to the gospel, truly loves the Lord, and is truly "faithful" and dedicated to these things just blow off church? Or are we to presume that because he made a choice to prioritize something else those two weeks that it was the wrong choice (meaning we are judging him)?

 

As to the OP: Do spirits have lusts of the flesh? Do spirits have food or sex cravings?

[Phomjachana]

Well that kinda leads to the point.  I'm not his judge.  And I don't know why he missed church, but at face value (letter of the law) he sinned.  Do I personally make that judgment?  No, one because I'm not his judge, and two I don't know all his circumstances anyways.  I presume (because he was so good) there was a good reason, but again idk.  Part of the reason this is ingrained in my head with judgment is I remember someone saying off cuff that it's not good that he missed those two weeks and his facial expression and tone were quite condemning and suggesting that he did not endure to the "end."  And I did not agree that he should be condemned.  I think along with this guy's comments, there was a rumor that he missed church to work, which to some is an unacceptable reason to miss church.

 

The op highlighted some fear of what if he was to die while trying to repent and other things.  And I believe this story addresses those concerns.

[The Folk Prophet]

but at face value (letter of the law) he sinned.  

 

You mean to say that if I'm at home heaving my guts out into the toilet instead of at church I'm sinning -- by the letter of the law? That's harsh.

[mdfxdb]

Well that kinda leads to the point.  I'm not his judge.  And I don't know why he missed church, but at face value (letter of the law) he sinned.  

Please expound.....

 

what letter?

 

what law?

[Blackmarch]

Does anyone in here believe that there will be rehabilitation in the spirit world like how we have here on earth? allowing those of us who have addictions more time (and opportuinty if we hadnt had it on earth) to overcome them?

 

For example I saw a TED talk on netflix where it was studied that a certain pill that lowers insulin causes people not to hunger as much. An obese person that used to eat alot soon ate a little and was able to lose weight. The pediatrician concluded that obesity was not a choice but rather a biological disorder.

 

Which allowed me to explore further that maybe our homosexual brothers and sisters have a disorder that medical/science will discover a cure for one day.

 

if advancements in medical and science help our future generation of earth dwellers why cant those same opportunitys be available for those that died previously?

if mankind is to be redeemed I can't see why there wouldn't be some form of rehab. altho I'd imagine that up to the point of being rehabbed that not having a body while suffering ghost symptoms will be hell for some.

[priesthoodpower]

On 6/2/2015 at 5:08 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

 

 

As to the OP: Do spirits have lusts of the flesh? Do spirits have food or sex cravings?

 

Interesting comment, this makes me think more.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[Blackmarch]

As to the OP: Do spirits have lusts of the flesh? Do spirits have food or sex cravings?

Don't know about ones who've never been in a physical body, but ones that have sure can.

Edit: and i'd wager that ones that haven't lust for something that the physical body has; evidenced by posessions.... possibly even the whispering of temptations might be related.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Blackmarch

[The Folk Prophet]

Don't know about ones who've never been in a physical body, but ones that have sure can.

Edit: and i'd wager that ones that haven't lust for something that the physical body has; evidenced by posessions.... possibly even the whispering of temptations might be related.

 

What support do you offer for this? I hope it's more than George C. Ritchie's Return from Tomorrow.

[char713]

My wonderful husband has struggled for most of his life with addiction to pornography. Almost everything that we have read about it, and every form of counter-attack that has been effective over the long-term for him has targeted the mental and emotional triggers that might drive someone to "act out" on their addiction. It is not physical in itself, though of course the sex-drive does contribute, but even men who are completely satisfied with their real-life sex life sometimes still feel tempted to act out, often within an hour or two. It's great that for whatever reason the OP's problem is not a problem any more, but the addiction sits in an entirely different part of the brain, so lack of libido is unlikely to be the real or entire reason.  

 

It is my personal opinion that yes, spirits are as prone to hungers, lusts, and addictions as the body. I believe that this is why some people have what they call an "addictive personality" where they can become addicted to almost anything. I think something the actor Tom Hardy said is where I most recently heard this expressed. Some believe it is brain chemistry, and that the body can be genetically pre-disposed toward addictions. I think it is partly spritual though too, based on some of the things said in my husband's patriarchal blessing and even some similar things in my own. My husband behaves like an addict in practically every area of his life. He goes for long periods only eating one particular dish over and over at least two meals a day until he's sick of it - this last month it was spinach salads. He used to be heavily into gaming but last year quit the whole thing cold turkey once he realized why. And now he doesn't even have any games that he plays, not even basic game apps on his phone. He has always been fiercely monogamous in his romantic interests and relationships (except the slight contradiction there considering the porn) even in middle school and high school. He gets very intensely interested in whatever he is doing for work or his hobbies and will sometimes run himself into the ground trying to accomplish various goals. He lives the addict lifestyle, just minus any of the harmful substances or deviant behaviors. 

[Blackmarch]

What support do you offer for this? I hope it's more than George C. Ritchie's Return from Tomorrow.

DC 76, revelations 20:12-15,

and about most verses that talk about carnal man, and overcoming the carnal man

What are the two things that hold people back from repenting?

fear and/or the desire of whatever  need to repent of... and why is that

God provides a way out at every point, until the second death, until hell is destroyed at the end of the millenium and everyone is brought out of it... and still after 1000 years of suffering there will still be those who prefer their whoredoms and abominations over christ, God, and paradise. Why?

[The Folk Prophet]

DC 76, revelations 20:12-15,

and about most verses that talk about carnal man, and overcoming the carnal man

What are the two things that hold people back from repenting?

fear and/or the desire of whatever  need to repent of... and why is that

God provides a way out at every point, until the second death, until hell is destroyed at the end of the millenium and everyone is brought out of it... and still after 1000 years of suffering there will still be those who prefer their whoredoms and abominations over christ, God, and paradise. Why?

 

What does any of this have to do with whether spirits have hunger (or even the ability to eat) or sex drives, or anything of the sort?

[Traveler]

I think the subject of this thread is much broader than many may realize.  From the scriptures I am not as sure as I would like to be about things.  There are scriptures that indicate that the time for repentance is during our mortal live.  And at the same time there are scripture that indicated that temple work is necessary for those that repent in the spirit world or "next" life.

 

I cannot resolve this via an appeal exclusive to scripture - so for me I consider rhetorical logic as a possibility to help this conundrum.  Rhetorical logic would indicate that when a choice is made - there is a resulting condition or result for that choice.  Also rhetorical logic indicates that if a choice is changed then one of the choices would have to be invalid or in essence not actually a choice.  We can mitigate this problem by arguing that not all the results were known when the preceding choice was made.  This is a very important rhetorical mitigation.  We are talking about the very definition of intelligence.  That is; as we learn by our initial choices we modify our behavior and make better choices. 

 

But there is another dimension - If we have full knowledge when making a choice then there would be no reason to assume that we would learn anything from the choice and thus change the choice.  Plus there is the possibility that there are other factors in choices other than knowledge.  Obviously Satan is proof that choices can be made that are not knowledge based - else Lucifer would have never fallen and become Satan.

 

I believe discipline is necessary to make good choices.  To demonstrate this rhetorical logic lets consider the choice to or not to learn to play a musical instrument.  In reality the choice is not between to play or not to play.  The actual choice is between learning by discipline to play or or choosing not to bother with the necessary discipline.  In this scenario the more we discipline our self the more we accomplish through the discipline.  The less we are disciplined the less we accomplish but something else happens - at least I have observed that the less we discipline ourselves the less we even desire to be disciplined.  It is my observation that this trend follows - despite intelligence. 

 

It is also my experience that the atonement of Christ can free us from the consequences of choice but discipline is necessary - starting with repentance - to master "being good".  But repentance is only the start or beginning of discipline.  It is also my experience that the longer we postpone repentance and starting down the path of discipline - the more difficult it is.  This is why I believe we are advised to repent now, start attending church and living by covenant - because the longer we put off the discipline the more propensity we have to be undisciplined.  It is not a matter of waiting til the next life because it may be easier - it is a matter or doing all you can now or today - that gives you an advantage tomorrow.

 

For some things it is not about an end solution tomorrow but just an increased advantage.  I may not be able to prove this by scripture - and for those that must have the proof of scripture and only scripture - well all I can say is -- Good luck with that and how is it working out for you?

Edited June 3, 2015 by Traveler

[Blackmarch]

What does any of this have to do with whether spirits have hunger (or even the ability to eat) or sex drives, or anything of the sort?

why do we sin?

why do we choose to keep old bad habits even after we find out there is a better way?

why do we sin when we know better?

why will there still be those who choose to sin even after a thousand years of suffering like christ suffered?

or how about the scripture that says to the effect of those who die clean will be raised clean and those who die filthy will be raised filthy still?

when those scriptures talk about those who desire whoredoms and abominations it's not just talking about their mortal desires.

(on a side note what's your understanding of what goes with us when we die? )

The bridge between our body and spirit is a two way street and the adversary understands this well- if he can get us bound to our carnalities, it will affect us in more than just body.

[The Folk Prophet]

why do we sin?

why do we choose to keep old bad habits even after we find out there is a better way?

why do we sin when we know better?

why will there still be those who choose to sin even after a thousand years of suffering like christ suffered?

or how about the scripture that says to the effect of those who die clean will be raised clean and those who die filthy will be raised filthy still?

when those scriptures talk about those who desire whoredoms and abominations it's not just talking about their mortal desires.

(on a side note what's your understanding of what goes with us when we die? )

The bridge between our body and spirit is a two way street and the adversary understands this well- if he can get us bound to our carnalities, it will affect us in more than just body.

 

Yeah...it seems to me that you're concluding things from suppositions that are unknown based on some other things that are know. That we will be wicked still if we're wicked doesn't automatically translate to - spirits have the ability or desire to eat (or engage in sexual relationships).

 

There are, quite simply, things that are mortal that can only be mortal, and it strikes me that hunger is one of them. Implying that lust and gluttony mean illicit sex and overeating in the spirit world doesn't equate to my mind. Sure, if we're "gluttonous" then we'll still be gluttonous -- but it would, I think, likely have to manifest otherwise than stuffing our faces with donuts, as I tend to believe that spirits don't eat. Of course that's only a guess, and I could be wrong. But to determine from the concepts your sharing that spirit will still feel hunger of any sort...not sure I'm buying that.

 

The point? Certain mortal struggles will certainly go away without mortality. Maybe we'll struggle, for a time, with the psychology of it all -- but I cannot see that lasting long term into the spirit world existence. Sure, the weaknesses at the root of why someone has this lack of control will remain -- maybe -- but the overeating itself? Not seeing it.

 

Putting it into the simplest terms. If one has a bad habit of -- say -- cracking knuckles -- and then one's hands get cut off.... How long do you think it's going to take that person to overcome that habit? Sure -- they may crave doing so for a while -- get those "ghost" feelings. Depending on their personality, strength of will, etc., that may even last for quite some time. But they sure won't be cracking their knuckles without any knuckles to crack. It's not a complicated idea.

 

Do you understand me? Pointing out that we will have the same core characters as we did in this life does not prove that spirits can eat. If they cannot, then they certainly cannot maintain an overeating habit.

 

I'm not claiming I'm right. I'm just claiming that it's not so cut and dry as you seem to be making it.

[Traveler]

I do often wonder how some think they will end up somewhere they never make any effort to get to thinking perhaps that G-d will somehow fix it - weather or not they even want an actual fix or do anything to secure it.  Obviously they do not make the connection in the parable between the pearl of great price and the kingdom of G-d.

[mrmarklin]

There is clearly a chance to repent in the Spirit world, for none of us are going to die without sin. I agree with one of the comments that we will largely be judged on our attitudes and goals. That's where grace comes in. We are given grace after all we can do. I think there's a scripture in the Book of Mormon to that effect.

If one is trying to overcome addiction upon death, I believe that one will probably come out OK.

Edit: I don't think skipping church a couple of times will keep a believer out of Paradise section of Spirit World.:-)

Edited June 5, 2015 by mrmarklin

[Blackmarch]

Yeah...it seems to me that you're concluding things from suppositions that are unknown based on some other things that are know. That we will be wicked still if we're wicked doesn't automatically translate to - spirits have the ability or desire to eat (or engage in sexual relationships).

 

There are, quite simply, things that are mortal that can only be mortal, and it strikes me that hunger is one of them. Implying that lust and gluttony mean illicit sex and overeating in the spirit world doesn't equate to my mind. Sure, if we're "gluttonous" then we'll still be gluttonous -- but it would, I think, likely have to manifest otherwise than stuffing our faces with donuts, as I tend to believe that spirits don't eat. Of course that's only a guess, and I could be wrong. But to determine from the concepts your sharing that spirit will still feel hunger of any sort...not sure I'm buying that.

 

The point? Certain mortal struggles will certainly go away without mortality. Maybe we'll struggle, for a time, with the psychology of it all -- but I cannot see that lasting long term into the spirit world existence. Sure, the weaknesses at the root of why someone has this lack of control will remain -- maybe -- but the overeating itself? Not seeing it.

 

Putting it into the simplest terms. If one has a bad habit of -- say -- cracking knuckles -- and then one's hands get cut off.... How long do you think it's going to take that person to overcome that habit? Sure -- they may crave doing so for a while -- get those "ghost" feelings. Depending on their personality, strength of will, etc., that may even last for quite some time. But they sure won't be cracking their knuckles without any knuckles to crack. It's not a complicated idea.

 

Do you understand me? Pointing out that we will have the same core characters as we did in this life does not prove that spirits can eat. If they cannot, then they certainly cannot maintain an overeating habit.

 

I'm not claiming I'm right. I'm just claiming that it's not so cut and dry as you seem to be making it.

thank you.  no i'm not saying they will have the ability to do for such things... to go along with your example they will have the desire to crack the knuckle, but will not be able to. And if they have gotten to the point where cracking their knuckles gives them their rush, to the point where they should have visited a psychologist about it in mortal life, then it's going to take them longer for that desire to go away or be removed after they die than say someone who cracks knuckles as a habit and/or hates that they have to do so to relieve tension they feel in their hands.

But, I am saying that any desire will carry over- especially the mental parts (how we've trained ourselves). and some will be so lost to it that they will still choose it over what God and Christ have to offer, becaue it's what they have brought themselves to like/enjoy/want such a thing. Ands if any desire does carry over at all after the seperation of body and spirit then I have to say yes that spirits will still suffer from their addictions.

For some people being forced to abstain from something does work, but for others it does not. - however such an environment does provide a good opportunity to change and get over it, or onthe other hand, it will cause someone to thirst after it because they no longer can have it.

 

[Traveler]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm - I am wondering.  How can we conclude that a spirit cannot crack their knuckles?  What is the difference from thinking something and actually doing it?  Did not Jesus say to look upon someone and lust is the commission of adultery in one's heart?  

[Phomjachana]

Sorry it was a busy end to the week.

 

You mean to say that if I'm at home heaving my guts out into the toilet instead of at church I'm sinning -- by the letter of the law? That's harsh.

unfortunately...

 

Please expound.....

 

what letter?

 

what law?

We are commanded to keep the Sabbath Day holy.  An aspect of keeping it holy is showing or demonstrating our willingness to keep our covenants.  That is most notably done by partaking of the Sacrament, at church.  So we are to attend church every week to partake of the Sacrament. 

 

I'm confused by your question about letter.  its a saying paired often with the "spirit of the law."  An example of "letter of the law" regarding prayer, is we are commanded to pray to God, and the Lord has taught us that we should pray morning and evening.  So, I could go through the motions and offer up my prayer, but the great benefits and blessings really come when I obey the spirit of the law, or the point, the purpose, or the reason for offering a prayer. 

 

Likewise I can read my scriptures, but get nothing out of it because I was trying to read a page as fast as I possibly can so I could check it off my list or say I did it, but did it change who I am?  Did it cause me to grow and develop?  That is what abiding by the spirit of the law does. It changes us and our spirits.  Quite literally the "law is dead."  Obedience for obedience sake is good when we have an off day because that maintains our discipline and perseverence, but if it is the norm, then one day it will be really easy to question what's the point of reading and then we stop doing it because understanding the importance of why we read or pray is not really known.  Then we are no longer abiding the letter of the law or the spirit of the law. 

 

the letter of the law is simply doing what the law states.  Abiding the spirit of the law is about where our heart is when we are attempting to be obedient.  and this leads to the idea that we may not attend church, read scriptures, pray the way we've been taught, and yet we are still blessed as if we had done those things.  The spirit of the law deals with mercy and understanding our individual circumstances to bless us accordingly. The letter of the law is about justice and there is no middle ground, you either did it, or you didn't. do or do not there is no try.  The comment of pooping, at least to me, wouldn't have the Lord withhold his blessings because you had a bodily function get in the way and you were doing your best to get to church on time.  Now if you were using that as an excuse for not getting to church and didnt care to make it to church, then (again I dont know your heart but you do and God does) it would seem the letter of the law applies more than the spirit of the law, meaning you would need to repent.  (at least this is how i'd view this situation with myself.) 

This also highlights the importance of our heart in being obedient and that repentance is more importantly about our heart than what we do, because I can do something and my heart is not in it and it doesn't bless me near as much as it would if I kept the commandment cheerfully.  I could also fail to do something but yet I'd be blessed for my efforts and heart in attempting to do it.  (home teaching, we are supposed to visit families, but some families wont let us in so we letter of the law we failed to make a visit, however, the effort to connect and be there for them can still be applied and if so, then the spirit of the law(or the purpose behind visiting) has been abided by.)

 

i apologize about the bad grammar too btw, and maybe that explains what i meant by letter of the law, and the law i was pointing to was keeping the sabbath day holy and partaking of the sacrament.

[Traveler]

Sorry it was a busy end to the week.

 

unfortunately...

 

We are commanded to keep the Sabbath Day holy.  An aspect of keeping it holy is showing or demonstrating our willingness to keep our covenants.  That is most notably done by partaking of the Sacrament, at church.  So we are to attend church every week to partake of the Sacrament. 

 

I'm confused by your question about letter.  its a saying paired often with the "spirit of the law."  An example of "letter of the law" regarding prayer, is we are commanded to pray to God, and the Lord has taught us that we should pray morning and evening.  So, I could go through the motions and offer up my prayer, but the great benefits and blessings really come when I obey the spirit of the law, or the point, the purpose, or the reason for offering a prayer. 

 

Likewise I can read my scriptures, but get nothing out of it because I was trying to read a page as fast as I possibly can so I could check it off my list or say I did it, but did it change who I am?  Did it cause me to grow and develop?  That is what abiding by the spirit of the law does. It changes us and our spirits.  Quite literally the "law is dead."  Obedience for obedience sake is good when we have an off day because that maintains our discipline and perseverence, but if it is the norm, then one day it will be really easy to question what's the point of reading and then we stop doing it because understanding the importance of why we read or pray is not really known.  Then we are no longer abiding the letter of the law or the spirit of the law. 

 

the letter of the law is simply doing what the law states.  Abiding the spirit of the law is about where our heart is when we are attempting to be obedient.  and this leads to the idea that we may not attend church, read scriptures, pray the way we've been taught, and yet we are still blessed as if we had done those things.  The spirit of the law deals with mercy and understanding our individual circumstances to bless us accordingly. The letter of the law is about justice and there is no middle ground, you either did it, or you didn't. do or do not there is no try.  The comment of pooping, at least to me, wouldn't have the Lord withhold his blessings because you had a bodily function get in the way and you were doing your best to get to church on time.  Now if you were using that as an excuse for not getting to church and didnt care to make it to church, then (again I dont know your heart but you do and God does) it would seem the letter of the law applies more than the spirit of the law, meaning you would need to repent.  (at least this is how i'd view this situation with myself.) 

This also highlights the importance of our heart in being obedient and that repentance is more importantly about our heart than what we do, because I can do something and my heart is not in it and it doesn't bless me near as much as it would if I kept the commandment cheerfully.  I could also fail to do something but yet I'd be blessed for my efforts and heart in attempting to do it.  (home teaching, we are supposed to visit families, but some families wont let us in so we letter of the law we failed to make a visit, however, the effort to connect and be there for them can still be applied and if so, then the spirit of the law(or the purpose behind visiting) has been abided by.)

 

i apologize about the bad grammar too btw, and maybe that explains what i meant by letter of the law, and the law i was pointing to was keeping the sabbath day holy and partaking of the sacrament.

 

I think I am with folk prophet on this one but I will explain it a little bit differently.  The terms whole, perfect, complete and holy are to my thinking synonyms as they are used in scripture.  In the parable of the Good Samaritan Jesus uses the pious example of keeping covenants in the devout Levitt and Priest - both well known for keeping themselves in line with their Sabbath covenants.  In contrast he uses the image of a corrupt and Sabbath breaking not taking sacrament example of a Samaritan that has love and compassion that is willing to interrupt any piety or self concern to "save" a wounded and dying individual that despises him.

 

I do not believe the goal of eternity or the purpose of the Sabbath is to make sure we take the sacrament.  Rather it seems to me the goal of eternity, the purpose of the Sabbath as well as the covenant taking of the sacrament is to help us to remember to "save" the wounded and dying individuals that have learned and experienced being ignored by the pious devout "believers" determined only to take their sacraments.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Traveler