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Lot's of scriptures speak of one heart, one mind, etc.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/unity?lang=eng

 

But I find it quite obvious that there are many whose minds and hearts are simply not one with mine (I'm looking at you, you know who you are). And yet, we both claim to be adherents of the gospel.

 

Discuss.

 

I don't know.

 

I have spent many hours bemoaning my own hard heart and the knack I sometimes have of being divisive rather than uniting. But when I analyze my opponents as objectively and unbiased as I can, I usually conclude that they are much more divisive and much less willing to consider the opinions of others than I am. Not always, but usually. And then I feel taken advantage of -- that hypocrites are seeking to use my own beliefs to control and silence me while they prattle on with their own views, logic and reason and fairness be damned. Which leads to me feeling much less likely to give them the benefit of any doubt, because they have proven themselves liars.

 

All of which works exactly in opposition to unity.

 

For me, this is a great mystery. How does one stay true to himself and yet encourage unity? Christ doubtless put up with any number of personal inconveniences and false witnesses, so that must be an example to us. Yet Christ also stood up manfully for divine truths, and never -- not once -- compromised the truth for the sake of "unity". Somehow, Christ strove toward the goal of unity without condoning false beliefs in others.

 

Yet he was obviously selective about what he chose to attack. Hypocrisy was his favorite target, and arguably his ONLY target. When the lame man at the pool of Bethesda explained about angels troubling waters and the first person in gets cured, Jesus spent exactly zero time correcting this silly superstition. Instead, he simply healed the man. So clearly, not every wrong idea needs to be called out and corrected.

 

I wish I knew the answer, TFP.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Thanks for your input.  However, it is not just a difference of opinion - it is not wanting to listen or deal with a different opinion.  Many years ago when I was on a high school debate team - my coach said that if we could not see another point of view and believe we could win an argument based on that point of view - we had no right to think we understand it enough to oppose it or think we have a better idea.

 

Great point. I agree with you 100%.

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God is perfectly merciful and perfectly just.

 

Vort,

 

What you said resonates with me. I struggle deeply with the sentiments and feelings you shared. I have pondered and wrestled with this internally to the point where it has caused great anxiety and distress in my life.

 

The answers that I am getting that I am not living up to perfectly but which I believe will be the answer if I stay true is this:

 

Do not judge others. Believe the best. Drop the expectations you place on others. Then, after having done this, trust in God completely.

 

I think of King Benjamin. I have received great knowledge from God. He has been good to me in my life. God has blessed me at times with His Spirit and I have felt of His love. I do not say this to boast but to show that God has been good to me and has blessed even though I have been unworthly of His blessings and goodness. Because God has blessed me I am no better than anyone else. My experiences with God do not make me better than others.

 

Mosiah 2:

 

And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.

 

So, I believe this is one key. We cannot boast or condescend to anyone because God has blessed us.

 

Mosiah 4:

 

11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.

12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

13 And ye will not have a mind to injure one another, but to live peaceably, and to render to every man according to that which is his due.

 

I have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, I have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love and I have received a remission of my sins which caused exceedingly great joy in my soul. Now I must continue to remember and always retain in remembrance the greatness of God and my own nothingness. I must always retain in remembrance God's goodness and His long-suffering towards me, an unworthy creature. I must humble myself even in the depths of humility. I must call on the name of the Lord daily and stand steadfastly in my faith in Jesus Christ and His gospel. If I do this then the promise is that I will always rejoice, I will be filled with the love of God, and I will retain a remission of my sins. Further I will not have a mind to injure another but I will have a mind to live peaceably.

 

I fail in this because I do not keep the conditions King Benjamin mentioned. My simple faith is that if begin to act on the words of King Benjamin that I will receive a mind that will not want to injure another and to live peacably with others. However, I often judge and justify my judgements of others because I feel that they deserve it because they are clearly in the wrong. But, when I do this I am in greater need of repenting. I have begged for mercy from God for my sins. I have nothing or I am nothing without God. God is great and He is able to do all things necessary. I must continuously look to Him and not be distracted or swayed by others and their behavior.

 

God has given great promises to those who take up their cross and follow Him and sacrifice their own selves and their selfishness to God and His goodness:

 

2 Nephi 8:

 

For the Lord shall comfort Zion, he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord. Joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving and the voice of melody.

4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation; for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light for the people.

 

Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart I have written my law, fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool. But my righteousness shall be forever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

9 Awake, awake! Put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake as in the ancient days. Art thou not he that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

10 Art thou not he who hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

11 Therefore, the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy and holiness shall be upon their heads; and they shall obtain gladness and joy; sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

12 I am he; yea, I am he that comforteth you. Behold, who art thou, that thou shouldst be afraid of man, who shall die, and of the son of man, who shall be made like unto grass?

 

If we have received a remission of our sins and have tasted of the goodness of God and have been converted to His gospel then we have the assurance that Heavenly Father has our back. Those who try to use us or take advantage of us will be stopped. Those who would dig a pit for those who are the Lord's will fill the pit they dug for the Lord's people. We need not stress or worry. Simply love and serve.

 

-Finrock

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Guest LiterateParakeet

But when I analyze my opponents as objectively and unbiased as I can, I usually conclude that they are much more divisive and much less willing to consider the opinions of others than I am. Not always, but usually.

Trouble is both sides feel this way about the other side. Both can't be right...or maybe they can and are, perhaps we are all less willing to consider the opinions of others than we think we are even when we are trying.

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If I may - I would put forward two examples of unity with differences I have had on this very forum.

 

The First is our friend Prison Chaplin.  When it comes to doctrine and who is right - I am not sure I disagree with anyone more than PC.  He and I have had many exchanges over may things - but I cannot think of even one time that he has convinced me that he is not listening or that he will no longer consider my arguments.   From time to time I have tried to shake the very core of his thinking but he never gets upsets nor turns away from the fray.  He is an amazing example we can all learn from.

 

The other is Seminary Snoozer.  I do not know where she is currently but those that have been around the forum have seen her and I go toe to toe - sometimes trying to help us resolve something but hardly getting an edge in word-wise.  Yet after all that has been said and done - I feel that I can challenge her on any subject and she will respond honestly without fear that I will hunt her down and do harm. 

 

Vort is another one - but he seems to back off if things heat up a bit and become a challenge. 

 

My point is - that it is possible to disagree and not disrupt unity and that there are examples of how to do it.  Heaven knows we also have plenty of examples  where things have broken down and becoming offensive.   I would like to put my own self up as a good example - but there are warnings in my personal profile that remind me that I have gone too far with things and that I am not the saint that I ought to be.

 

I would add one more thought - it is these posters I trust the most to bounce ideas off of.  Because I know if they do not agree or can find anything not quite right - they will let me know without going belletristic.

Edited by Traveler
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Do you realize how condescending your last line is? Not so much what you said but the way you said it. Is being civil really so hard? For someone who claims to want unity you sure have a strange way of going about it. I don't disagree with what you said about justice and mercy which goes to show that you don't understand me as well as you think you do.

So what is your opinion about illegal immigration? You said I misjudged you so now I'm curious. I'll be happy to apologize if I was wrong, but I need more information first.

 

I'm disinclined to have any further discussion with you if you see me as so uncivil. If you don't disagree, clarify what you meant instead of calling me condescending, and implying falsely that the way you are reading (I believe misreading) my tone and intent show that I'm somehow to blame for lack of unity.

 

Do you realize how condescending this response is?

 

It cuts both ways you know? Why can you and others be hurtful and rude, but it's all TFP's fault that there's conflict?

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In all seriousness, what do you consider doctrine, I am not trying to bait or argue.

 

Because we've had this discussion and it went nowhere before and it will go nowhere again, and you already know what I'll say (unless you've forgotten the discussion from...what...a month back) and I already know what you'll say. And none of it is of any use, because defining what is an is not doctrine IS NOT IMPORTANT.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

I'm disinclined to have any further discussion with you if you see me as so uncivil. If you don't disagree, clarify what you meant instead of calling me condescending, and implying falsely that the way you are reading (I believe misreading) my tone and intent show that I'm somehow to blame for lack of unity.

Do you realize how condescending this response is?

It cuts both ways you know? Why can you and others be hurtful and rude, but it's all TFP's fault that there's conflict?

We must really be misunderstanding one another. I apologize for my part in that. Apparently it didn't come across the way I intended but I was trying to keep it light and friendly. So I was surprised by your response...and so forth.

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We must really be misunderstanding one another. I apologize for my part in that. Apparently it didn't come across the way I intended but I was trying to keep it light and friendly. So I was surprised by your response...and so forth.

 

Fair enough. I also apologize for what I now also see could easily have been taken as rude, though I only meant for it to be a conversation point...as in -- do we really disagree or does one misunderstand/is mis-communicating.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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Guest LiterateParakeet

Fair enough. I also apologize for what I now also see could easily have been taken as rude, though I only meant for it to be a conversation point...as in -- do we really disagree or does one misunderstand/is mis-communicating.

Thanks. I will try to remember to seek clarification in the future to help avoid miscommunication or clear it up. :)

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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Because we've had this discussion and it went nowhere before and it will go nowhere again, and you already know what I'll say (unless you've forgotten the discussion from...what...a month back) and I already know what you'll say. And none of it is of any use, because defining what is an is not doctrine IS NOT IMPORTANT.

 

I am not ignoring your response to my last post on page one, but there's a couple more pages of responses to go over before I respond back. But I am wondering, why is knowing what is doctrine and what is not so unimportant? Isn't that how we might go about "picking our battles?" If unity is at all dependant on a lack of argument, and if we want unity, shouldn't we first try to pinpoint which beliefs are most worth going to battle for? Otherwise I could see some people standing for everything, and others standing for nothing. 

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I am not ignoring your response to my last post on page one, but there's a couple more pages of responses to go over before I respond back. But I am wondering, why is knowing what is doctrine and what is not so unimportant? Isn't that how we might go about "picking our battles?" If unity is at all dependant on a lack of argument, and if we want unity, shouldn't we first try to pinpoint which beliefs are most worth going to battle for? Otherwise I could see some people standing for everything, and others standing for nothing. 

 

Why don't you answer omega's question and get into it with him and then your should gain some perspective on why I'm responding the way I am. At it's core, I don't disagree with you. But there are those who would use strict definitions of such things to downplay the importance of certain ideas.

 

My point -- does it matter if (for example) home teaching is "doctrine" or not?

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Because we've had this discussion and it went nowhere before and it will go nowhere again, and you already know what I'll say (unless you've forgotten the discussion from...what...a month back) and I already know what you'll say. And none of it is of any use, because defining what is an is not doctrine IS NOT IMPORTANT.

I remember our conversation, you advocate one heart, one mind, etc. how can we overcome this barrier?

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How does being polite and showing mutual respect in discourse somehow equate to being phony?

You're saying it isn't being authentic?

 

Or am I hearing you incorrectly?

 

I didn't say I wouldn't be polite or show respect. What I did say was, "I don't do PC, I don't do well with people who talk in circles, and I don't sing Kumbaya" with that in mind, sooner or later I'll let them know how I feel if their just yanking my chain to see if I'll bark. 

Edited by Average Joe
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Oh I gotcha, TFP. 

 

And if you were really asking - no I do not think it matters whether Home Teaching is doctrine (and I don't think it is) but that shouldn't have anything to do with whether we obey and follow anyway.

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And if you were really asking - no I do not think it matters whether Home Teaching is doctrine (and I don't think it is) but that shouldn't have anything to do with whether we obey and follow anyway.

 

For the record: Home teaching most definitely IS doctrine, if not the specific program then very clearly the purpose it fulfills.

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For the record: Home teaching most definitely IS doctrine, if not the specific program then very clearly the purpose it fulfills.

This is why we will always struggle to agree, while we go to the same church and both sustain our leaders it is the small points like home teaching that cause the great divide.

 

I cannot deny the benefits of home teaching or the sound principles that our leaders have espoused while talking about the subject. I cannot agree that it is doctrine. For some it may fall under a larger umbrella of priesthood duty but that is for the individual to decide, while we are beat over the heads on a weekly basis about doing it. I personally do not think that our eternal salvation hinges on whether or not we did our home teaching (for the record I do home teach).

 

This is a huge digression ( the home teaching topic) but exemplifies why many do not see eye to eye on gospel principles and teachings.

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I remember our conversation, you advocate one heart, one mind, etc. how can we overcome this barrier?

 

Well...to be fair, the scriptures advocate one heart, one mind, etc...

 

How do we overcome this barrier. Honestly? Legitimately?

 

We turn to Christ and His gospel as directed by His chosen servants and we humble ourselves. Really, I think humility is the key. The cause of disharmony is, inevitably, pride. The "doctrines", "teachings", "counsel", or whatever you want to call them are not ambiguous. Many simply choose to disregard, write-off, explain away, or otherwise wrest with principles and ideas they don't like or that have become unpopular. They choose to declare church leaders out of touch rather than humbly admitting that truth, morality, and right is not relative and does not change as society supposedly becomes more enlightened. My opinion is that there only one way to become one, and it is plain in the scriptures.

 

John 17:11-23

 

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

 

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

 

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

 

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

 

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

 

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

 

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

 

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

 

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

 

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

It is plain to me that becoming one is not about compromise. It is about holding fast to truth and persuading others to come to and attach themselves to the same truth. The command given to be of one heart and one mind was to agree with Christ, and His gospel, not to compromise these truths so we can all just get along.

 

However, where I struggle, is like Vort, how to hold true to gospel truths when others are (using an apparently offensive term again here) pernicious in their exclamations against them, and still maintain the command to have no dissensions. And contrary to what some believe, I think think this is a different issue than kindness. Kindness and civility are important in their own right, and we should all (yes, including, very obviously, myself) strive to improve on these things. But kind dissension is still dissension. And therein am I left somewhat confounded.

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This is why we will always struggle to agree, while we go to the same church and both sustain our leaders it is the small points like home teaching that cause the great divide.

 

I cannot deny the benefits of home teaching or the sound principles that our leaders have espoused while talking about the subject. I cannot agree that it is doctrine. For some it may fall under a larger umbrella of priesthood duty but that is for the individual to decide, while we are beat over the heads on a weekly basis about doing it. I personally do not think that our eternal salvation hinges on whether or not we did our home teaching (for the record I do home teach).

 

This is a huge digression ( the home teaching topic) but exemplifies why many do not see eye to eye on gospel principles and teachings.

 

Our doctrine is to look after each other. Our doctrine is to be shepherds to each other. Our doctrine is to be our brother's "keeper", to use Cain's insolent phraseology. Those things are doctrine, pure and simple, and those things are exactly what home teaching does -- or at least is designed to do, when implemented properly.

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President Ezra Taft Benson taught:

 

“I feel impressed to speak to you about a priesthood program that has been inspired from its inception—a program that touches hearts, that changes lives, and that saves souls; a program that has the stamp of approval of our Father in Heaven; a program so vital that, if faithfully followed, it will help to spiritually renew the Church and exalt its individual members and families.

 

”I am speaking about priesthood home teaching. With all my heart, I pray that you will understand, by the Spirit, exactly my feelings about home teaching.

 

“Brethren, home teaching is not just another program. It is the priesthood way of watching over the Saints and accomplishing the mission of the Church. Home teaching is not just an assignment. It is a sacred calling.

 

”Home teaching is not to be undertaken casually. A home teaching call is to be accepted as if extended to you personally by the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

“The Savior Himself was a teacher. The only perfect man to walk the face of the earth was a humble, dedicated, inspired teacher who brought to His followers salvation and exaltation.

 

”Oh, that all the brethren of the Church would catch that vision of home teaching!

 

“Tonight I am not teaching new doctrine, but I am reaffirming old doctrine. Quoting from section 20 of the Doctrine and Covenants, revealed to the Prophet Joseph in April of 1830, the Lord declared to the priesthood:

 

” 'Watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them;

 

“ 'And see that there is no iniquity in the church.

 

” 'And see that the church meet together often, and also see that all the members do their duty' (D&C 20:53-55).

 

“ 'And visit the house of each member, exhorting them to pray vocally and in secret and attend to all family duties' (D&C 20:51).

 

”Brethren, that is priesthood home teaching“ (”To the Home Teachers of the Church,“ Ensign, May 1987, 48-49).

 

 

I'm not sure how someone can merely claim that our lack of unity comes down to nothing more than interpretation or opinions differing when they are blatantly disregarding the teachings of prophets.

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Our doctrine is to look after each other. Our doctrine is to be shepherds to each other. Our doctrine is to be our brother's "keeper", to use Cain's insolent phraseology. Those things are doctrine, pure and simple, and those things are exactly what home teaching does -- or at least is designed to do, when implemented properly.

Yet it is the little things in which we get hung up on.

 

Are there not other ways to be our brothers keeper without home teaching?  The principles of loving our neighbors and looking out for one another stand without the home teaching program. Home teaching is the mechanism for making people do what they otherwise would not.   

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