When does G-d intervene?


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What do you think?  What is your experience indicate?  Is G-d more likely to step in and intervene directly in the affairs of men because of the prayers and desires of the righteous or because of the sins and crimes of the wicked?

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Neither.

He only intervenes if He wills it. No amount of prayer or desire will get him to do anything that does not align with the grand Plan of Salvation.

So... answers to prayers is simply God showing us that what we desired is aligned with His will.

And sin and crimes of the wicked is only intervened if such actions causes an irretrievable rift in the Plan of Salvation.

But that's just me.

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D&C 103:20-21

 

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

 

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

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Jeremiah 5:19

 

19 ¶And it shall come to pass, when ye shall say, Wherefore doeth the Lord our God all these things unto us? then shalt thou answer them, Like as ye have forsaken me, and served strange gods in your land, so shall ye serve strangers in a land that is not yours.

 

................One of many possible reasons

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To be a little more clear - the op is not when does G-d change but when does he step in and intervene.   Below is an excerpt from the LDS standard works publication; in particular study helps, Bible Dictionary topic Prayer:

 

 

As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are His children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part (Matt. 7:7–11). Many of the so-called difficulties about prayer arise from forgetting this relationship. Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings.

 

I would point out that blessings can come as protection from evil or evil intentions of others.  So if G-d does something to grant a blessing - is it most likely to be good stuff because of righteousness or blessings of protection because there is such an evil being done?

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Guest LiterateParakeet

I'm solidly in the No camp.

Do I think God will protect me from harm or evil? Nope. He has already shown me that He won't. Think about Elizabeth Smart was she protected from harm or evil? Nope.

He helps us heal and grow from these things but I would say He rarely intervenes.

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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What do you think?  What is your experience indicate?  Is G-d more likely to step in and intervene directly in the affairs of men because of the prayers and desires of the righteous or because of the sins and crimes of the wicked?

when it suits him, or if he's bound himself by a promise to do so.

in my experience it's usually after the tests. but there have been times when prayers were speedily answered.

However as to the third question, it will be more by prayer- God has given this world to us, to be tested, and it will be a test to the end. If a person desires for something and they put they effort into it, they usually can achieve it to some extent or another.

If a person desires sin, they can usually attain it- from thence they are left to their own and generally end up destryoying their life and/or those around them.

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Would you say this was intervention?  My mother was driving with her seven children in the car.  It was dark with no traffic traveling the same direction as us.  We were coming up to a stop light, and it was green for us.  All of a sudden my mother had to sneeze, and such a big sneeze that she pulled over and stopped right before the green light.  As she paused, a car sped through the intersection that would have broad-sided us if we had continued through the light.  I venture to say that some of us might have been killed or at least seriously injured.

 

Except for the Spirit, there is no way to know if this was divine intervention.  Some would say it's just coincidence.  That was the only time in her life my mother decided to stop driving for a sneeze.  The Spirit whispers to me that this was divine intervention.

 

My father was hit by a train while crossing the railroad tracks in his pickup.  He left seven children behind.  There was no intervention.  My daughter died in a car accident at the age of 19 leaving behind a 2-month-old baby.  Again, no intervention. I have pondered the whys and the why nots of divine intervention, and believe it all has to do with God's will and man's agency.  I certainly do pray for God's protection in the lives of my loved ones.  If I didn't believe that God could step in and intervene I would see no reason to pray for protection.

Edited by classylady
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I was just reading last night with my family in Mosiah 21. Limhi and his people were defeated 3 times by the Lamanites. Only then did they turn to God for help because they were humbled. They wanted to be free, but instead were only blessed with peace for the time being. The Lord was slow to hear their prayers. He heard the prayers of those giving it, although they were not righteous at the time. This definitely affected the other, perhaps more wicked group of people?

 

Sometimes the intervention isn't all that we ask, and it depends on how fast we went to the Lord in the first place. If we live in sin, knowing that we do, then are humbled by the circumstances we find ourselves in and reach to the Lord, our prayers will still be answered and intervening can happen. But to what extent and how fast is the real question. 

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The Lord allowing things to happen to us that are painful or sorrowful is not the same thing as the Lord not intervening.

 

Case in point Luke 22

 

 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, aremove this cup from me: nevertheless not my bwill, but thine, be done.

 43 And there appeared an aangel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

The Lord allowing things to happen to us that are painful or sorrowful is not the same thing as the Lord not intervening.

I believe you and yet at the same time, I don't understand the difference. I know the "adult" answers, but what I need to understand is how would you explain this to a 5 yr old child why God allowed the abuse.

Estradling, I love that you shared that scripture, excellent point. I pose the same question to you...how do we explain this to an abused child?

I sincerely want to know this isn't just for debate, so please be gentle my heart is quite tender in this area.

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I believe you and yet at the same time, I don't understand the difference. I know the "adult" answers, but what I need to understand is how would you explain this to a 5 yr old child why God allowed the abuse.

Estradling, I love that you shared that scripture, excellent point. I pose the same question to you...how do we explain this to an abused child?

I sincerely want to know this isn't just for debate, so please be gentle my heart is quite tender in this area.

 

 

I am not sure that you can...

 

But lets try an analogy...  Lets say we are a lump of ore.  As a lump of ore we might be quite happy just being.  A master blacksmith (God) however sees that you can be so much more.  However the process of getting you there requires you to go into the fire to burn out impurities, it requires relentless hammering on you to shape you.  These are not pleasant experiences they are not nice experiences.  If the ore doesn't understand why the blacksmith is working on them, they could easily and understandably turn to hating the blacksmith (or denying him any nice qualities)  But if they can see the larger view, even if it is just a glimpse then maybe their whole understanding can change.  

 

But how do you get a hurting kid to see the long view?  I think that requires more skills then I have.

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I believe you and yet at the same time, I don't understand the difference. I know the "adult" answers, but what I need to understand is how would you explain this to a 5 yr old child why God allowed the abuse.

Estradling, I love that you shared that scripture, excellent point. I pose the same question to you...how do we explain this to an abused child?

I sincerely want to know this isn't just for debate, so please be gentle my heart is quite tender in this area.

 

Actually, that opens up an entirely different discussion, which I think I may well start a new thread on... But I digress....

 

The primary way that the Lord intervenes in anything in our our lives is by granting us his Spirit. He comforts us. He teaches us. He guides us. And this applies to children as well.

 

Yes, we have to step back a bit and view things from an eternal perspective. And that can be difficult to do. But there is a level of trust that has to be applied, that all things are for our good if we turn to the Lord. And children can understand trust...perhaps better than adults.

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Clearly there is a lot of intervention.

I would submit that among many other examples, the right people at the right time have been placed on earth to facilitate the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Discovery of the Americas, the American and French Revolutions etc etc.

Further than that, I've often wondered about certain disasters that destroyed a lot of cities and people. For example, a few years age the city of Aceh was wiped out by a tsunami. Then I read somewhere that it had been a center of Islamic anti western activity. It occurred to me; was God intervening in human affairs to prevent some terrorist activity that could have an especially destructive effect to His plans? This of course, would also have the side benefit of destroying a lot of wicked people.

On a more personal level my 25 yo niece recently had an operation where the doctors advised the family that there was almost no hope of her survival. Of course many prayers were said etc etc. And as it turned out she survived, but after several weeks she's not fully recovered, but may recover fully. The operation did not cure her underlying disease of leukemia, but mitigated the devastating effects of chemotherapy. Intervention? I'd like to think so.

Edited by mrmarklin
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What do you think?  What is your experience indicate?  Is G-d more likely to step in and intervene directly in the affairs of men because of the prayers and desires of the righteous or because of the sins and crimes of the wicked?

 

To directly answer; yes I firmly believe that God will step in and intervene directly because of the prayers of the righteous. I have seen it in my own life; the scriptures are replete with examples of righteous people praying and then the Lord intervening.  

 

While I am firmly believe he can and does intervene, I am also cognizant that there are times when my wishes do not align with His wishes so I almost always end my prayers with a supplication of thy Will be done.

Edited by yjacket
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What do you think?  What is your experience indicate?  Is G-d more likely to step in and intervene directly in the affairs of men because of the prayers and desires of the righteous or because of the sins and crimes of the wicked?

 

Luke 6

 27 ¶But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

 29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

 30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

 37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

 38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

 

God is kind to the unthankful and to the evil. I think God loves all of His children equally and intervenes on their behalf as needed and as He desires to bless them. I believe God is intimately involved in our lives from the very beginning. The righteous have the benefit of having peace by knowing that we commended ourselves in to His care when we came to this earth and the unthankful and the evil are loved unconditionally by the Father as well and I am certain, based on Luke 6 that God is intervening on their behalf as well.

 

I was sexually abused severely as a child and I know with certainty that God intended for me to be placed in to the conditions He placed me and that despite the abuse, God has been with me the whole time. I see His hand in my life as He uses means to bring about His purposes. The atonement is what makes all of this possible. God has been good to me and continues to be good to me and I know that I am not special or any more special than anyone else, therefore I believe God has been and continues to be good to all of His children. He is no respector of persons.

 

-Finrock

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Guest LiterateParakeet

I am not sure that you can...

 

But lets try an analogy...  Lets say we are a lump of ore.  As a lump of ore we might be quite happy just being.  A master blacksmith (God) however sees that you can be so much more.  However the process of getting you there requires you to go into the fire to burn out impurities, it requires relentless hammering on you to shape you.  These are not pleasant experiences they are not nice experiences.  If the ore doesn't understand why the blacksmith is working on them, they could easily and understandably turn to hating the blacksmith (or denying him any nice qualities)  But if they can see the larger view, even if it is just a glimpse then maybe their whole understanding can change.  

 

But how do you get a hurting kid to see the long view?  I think that requires more skills then I have.

 

I like that, thank you.  I have heard that analogy before, but I had forgotten it and needed the reminder.  It is said that the blacksmith knows when the ore is ready when he can see his reflection in it.  

This is very helpful, thanks.  

 

 

Actually, that opens up an entirely different discussion, which I think I may well start a new thread on... But I digress....

 

The primary way that the Lord intervenes in anything in our our lives is by granting us his Spirit. He comforts us. He teaches us. He guides us. And this applies to children as well.

 

Yes, we have to step back a bit and view things from an eternal perspective. And that can be difficult to do. But there is a level of trust that has to be applied, that all things are for our good if we turn to the Lord. And children can understand trust...perhaps better than adults.

 

Thanks TFP.  I know that you are right, but at the same time this hits on so many areas that I struggle with....long story.  To be brief, there is a quote I like "Sometimes when the student is taking a test, the teacher is silent."  The heavenly silence is hard to take, but as you say 'trust' is the key.  Trust is something that is very difficult for survivors of abuse.  Still you are right and I will keep working on that.  

 

Thanks again.  

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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Perhaps I should have also asked - How do we know when G-d intervenes and what does he do when he intervenes?  Is the evidence of his interventions known spiritually or is their any empirical evidence?  Is it possible that we may be trying to measure the wrong things?

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Intervening does not mean stopping or preventing the thing from happening, only. We have to get the mindset that our spirits are not of this earth. This earth life, my mortality, is not the beginning nor the end of my existence.

 

God is in control. We are in the middle of a test. We are in the middle of a growing, learning, and purifying process. It doesn't make sense for God to stop the test or to allow us to skip a part of the test. His intervention is intended to allows us to continue in our testing period until it is done. He doesn't intervene to remove us from the test. He intervenes to help us reach our potential.

 

-Finrock

Edited by Finrock
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What do you think?  What is your experience indicate?  Is G-d more likely to step in and intervene directly in the affairs of men because of the prayers and desires of the righteous or because of the sins and crimes of the wicked?

I believe one of the biggest perils of our time is the ever-increasing popularity of the philosophy preached by Korihor.

Alma 30:17

And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime.

Why do I bring this up and what does it have to do with the question of if/how/why or why doesn't our Father intervene..? I think there have been many good comments already as to why He doesn't micro-manage our lives. Where would that leave agency and faith? But what do we mean when we say that God rarely intervenes? Does that mean He is basically uninvolved in our lives? Or is His involvement subtle and gentle? .. So much so that we often fail to notice it..?

We live in a time that celebrates rugged individualism. Frank Sinatra, Sid Vicious and how many karaoke singers sing, "I did it MY WAY!" ... And revel in that as though it were the ultimate purpose in life.. "I control my own destiny .. based on my own ingenuity and clarity of vision. I pull myself up by my bootstraps and I conquer! Sure I have flaws. Who doesn't? The point is: just look at what I've done for the world! "

How much do we *really* do? .. And how much are we blessed with?

I believe our Father is hugely involved in each and every one of our lives. I believe each and every one of us have been protected, blessed, and nurtured in more ways than we know. In our better moments, as we open our hearts in thankfulness, we begin to see small glimpses of these blessings as our Father opens our view to things as they really are. So, I think, it's less of a question of whether He intervenes in behalf of the prayers of the righteous or to thwart wickedness. He absolutely does both! He will *always* do both. The real question is, why do we sometimes have such difficulty seeing and understanding what it is He's really trying to do for each of us? .. And I don't mean that in some general sense.. I believe, not only is there a grand overarching Plan of Salvation... But there is also a very particular and specific Plan of Salvation finely tuned and tailored to each and every one of us. Our Father knows exactly what I need and exactly what you need in order to become more like Him.

I watch in amazement at some of you, my brothers and sisters, and it seems to me that the very jaws of hell have gaped open wide after you.. and yet, despite those trials you still manage to somehow have faith and optimism! I hope I can be as courageous as you if I'm ever called to experience what some of you have gone through.

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I believe Heavenly Father looks at the inward man and intervenes at His will.

 

My father was an alcoholic. He almost died from it many times. He was by no means a religious man nor did he go to any church and I never in my life saw him pray.

 

One time when he ended up in the hospital (I was only 3 years old) he almost died from alcohol. He saw a red robin at his hospital window. For some reason he felt that was the Lord reaching out to him. He prayed that very moment that the Lord touch him and heal him of his alcoholism.

 

My dad walked out of that hospital a few days later and NEVER in his 83 years of living drank again.

 

I believe the Lord heard his prayers, looked at the inward man not the alcoholic man, and intervened in his life. My dad only went to church a couple times in his whole life...but never drank again.

 

Yes.. He does intervene.

Edited by AngelMarvel
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First off - I would like to make my stand very clear - I believe G-d intervenes in the affairs of man - as the standard.  I present (as my first witness) the atonement of Jesus Christ. 

 

So how do you - or anyone - know that it is G-d (and not some coincidence) that is intervening?

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