can murderers hope for anything above the Telestial kingdom?


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My sister has been reading a book about those who killed in Rwanda and are in prison. I happen to struggle with a major mental block: how can one consciously make the decision and follow through on the action to commit murder and then feel remorse? Now I try to understand the frenzy that occurred in Rwanda but in the end murderers still commit murder.

Even if true remorse for a murder is felt, is one simply fated for a lower kingdom? And I speak of murderers in general, not just Rwanda.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

You sparked my curiosity so I did a little poking about and found this:

 

Spencer W. Kimball, the twelfth LDS Prophet said, “Even the murderer is justified in repenting and mending his ways and building up a credit balance in his favor” (The Miracle of Forgiveness,

p. 131).   Explaining this is easiest when using King David of old as an example.  David began to repent of his two very serious sins — committing adultery with Bathsheba after having her husband Uriah killed — the minute the prophet Nathan exposed him.  He repented all the rest of his life, and he is still repenting.  He is suffering for his own sins, since forgiveness cannot come to him through the atonement of Christ, because murder is unforgivable.  He will continue to suffer until the last resurrection, which will occur after Christ has finished His work on the earth, after His millennial reign.

God revealed to Joseph Smith, the prophet, that because of David’s repentance and suffering, he will be saved into the Terrestrial Kingdom, which is second in glory to the Celestial Kingdom of heaven (1 Corinthians 15:40-42).  (See also Doctrine and Covenants 132:39 .)  David received a promise that the Lord would not leave his soul in hell—which is the process of suffering for one’s own sins in the Spirit World before resurrection and final judgment.  Thus, David has not been forgiven, but will be pardoned.  Thus, murder is not forgivable, but it is pardonable.  Murderers will suffer for their own sins, meaning they are unforgiven, but they will not be completely cast outside the influence of God’s glory in the life to come, if they do try to repent. 

http://mormonfaq.com/1691/mormon-doctrine-can-murder-be-forgiven

 

 

I think this is interesting, but I'm not fully in agreement with it.  What about the Anti-Nephi-Lehies?

 

I'm going to settle with what Elder Oaks said...

 

I believe that the scriptural command to “judge not” refers most clearly to this final judgment, as in the Book of Mormon declaration that “man shall not … judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord” (Morm. 8:20).

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/08/judge-not-and-judging?lang=eng

 

 

In other words, I'll just say, "I don't know."  :) 

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Elder Kimball viewed things in the concept that we have to earn our way into heaven(s), which is why he talked about a "credit balance".  President Uchtdorf's General Conference talk on Grace moves us past that incomplete understanding. Several GAs of the past thought that murderers could not make it above the Telestial, and in particular said this of King David.

 

However, the scriptures do not say anything about this. The scriptures say that Jesus can save and exalt anyone and everyone.  Now, a murderer has more change and repentance to do than others.  But if he repents and changes himself, there is no reason given in the scriptures for him not to receive a higher kingdom.  Note the Lamanites who buried their weapons of war - are they not celestial material?

 

God loves all his children, regardless of what they've done, or who they are. He even wants the murderers and whoremongers to repent and return to Him.

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To my understanding we are judged according to the light and knowledge we have.  We read in the book of Alma chapter 39 verse 6:

 

" . . . yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness."

 

The Inspired version of the Bible in Luke chapter 12 verses 47 to 48 reads:

"And that servant who knew his Lord’s will, and prepared not for his Lord’s coming, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

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I happen to struggle with a major mental block: how can one consciously make the decision and follow through on the action to commit murder and then feel remorse?

 

 

There are ways to remove such mental blocks and understand such things, but they come at a cost.  You might consider yourself better off not understanding the minds of such people.

 

Speaking from experience here.  I don't know any murderers, but my wife and I spent 5 years dealing with her child sex-abusing younger brother, and we came out the other side bearing heavier burdens, with the sun shining just a little less brightly than before.  

 

But if you figure your shoulders are broad and you might be able to do good things with this knowledge, then go get it.  Go find someone in that situation, and ask them. 

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Elder Kimball viewed things in the concept that we have to earn our way into heaven(s), which is why he talked about a "credit balance".  President Uchtdorf's General Conference talk on Grace moves us past that incomplete understanding.

 

I do not believe Elder Uchtdorf's talk moved us into some different understanding of grace vs. works. Nothing has changed whatsoever in this regard.

 

We are, and always have been, saved by grace after all we can do. We are, and always have been, blessed according to an unalterable decree in heaven that such blessings are predicated upon our obedience. Faith without works has always been dead. The Lord has always been bound when we do what He says, and if we do not we have always had no promise.

 

President Uchtdorf's talk may have clarified things for you. But the idea that he understood something better than Spencer W. Kimball is, imo, inaccurate.

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Guest MormonGator

This one is a tough one. If someone murdered my wife or my father, I'd like to think they suffer an eternal punishment. I'd like to say I'd be full of love and compassion and forgive them but in all honesty I probably never would. 

 

I remember one time in college we were discussing a murder that took place in the town. Someone said "Well the parents should just forgive the murderer. It's what they are supposed to do or they are just as bad as the murderer." It bothered my then, it bothers me now. Logically this might be the case but emotionally, it's a good idea to never forget the victims. They have the right to want justice. I think it takes serious "chutzpah" to lecture the parents of a murder victim about forgiveness. 

 

People say chastity is the hardest Christian teaching but I think it's forgiveness. 

 

I once knew a woman from South Korea who was a Christian (and a serious one!) who said she would "Never forgive Kim Jong Il" for all the horrific murders that occurred under his watch. I can't blame her. She was from the south but knew people from the North. 

Edited by MormonGator
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Speculating on where a specific murderer will end up in is futile, I think. It's always better to just leave that kind of judgment up to Christ - as it is all in His hands and He is the only one who can determine the required restitution and their place in the heavens.

I don't have a problem if the Prophet would come out and say, "I received revelation that the Akazu's sufficiently repented of their sins in the Spirit World and will qualify to enter in the Celestial Kingdom if we do their temple work"...

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Guest LiterateParakeet

D&C Sec 42:

18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

I think all murderers will get their comeuppance. Their forgiveness is clearly limited.

In light of this verse how do you explain David killing Goliath, Nephi killing Laban, the Anti-Nephi-Lehies?

I don't think all the answers are in this one verse.

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In light of this verse how do you explain David killing Goliath, Nephi killing Laban, the Anti-Nephi-Lehies?

I don't think all the answers are in this one verse.

The latter group is the one I best think is for this discussion. In my mind, killing someone isn't always the same thing as murder.

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If it's true that David is suffering for his own sins (and other murderers are doing the same), I wonder if it's possible to one day completely save one's self without the Atonement.

No salvation is possible without the Atonement. I'm not really sure what you mean here.

Yes, those who murder may not have forgiveness - but that murder has to be predicated by full knowledge. A person born, grew up, and died in an uncivilized tribe who practices cannibalism for survival do not have the same knowledge as someone born, grew up, and died in an LDS household in Salt Lake City, Utah. The grace of the Atonement specifically atones for sins made without sufficient knowledge. Therefore, lack of knowledge is a variable that qualifies one for grace - and such knowledge (the content of one's heart) is something that only those with authority can see. Hence, going back to the Rwanda case, just because a person is an Akaru taking the life of a Hutu - we should just refrain from assuming he has sufficient knowledge to mark his act of murder as a rebellion made against knowledge of Christ's Atonement rather than an act he thought was righteous with the insufficient knowledge that he has. Even King David who had knowledge and favored of God is still able to walk the very difficult path of repentance for such a grave sin made with knowledge.

Edited by anatess
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You addressed my question in your second paragraph.

The earlier quote suggesting David might be suffering for his own sins as the Atonement didn't cover murder wouldn't make sense. Why try to repent if you can't have the Atonement or if your own suffering does nothing? This is all in context of the assumption murderers don't have part in the Atonement, of course.

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Guest MormonGator

 In my mind, killing someone isn't always the same thing as murder.

 Oh it certainly isn't. . The bible even says there is a "time to kill". 

 

A solider in war is not a murderer, even if he kills a solider from the opposing side. Neither is a police officer who shoots a heavily armed madman shooting innocent people. 

It's a tragic truth. We live in a very fallen world. 

Edited by MormonGator
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I worked for a few years in a state prison. I worked among murderers. I knew many who were truly converted to Christ, and never would do any other bad thing.  

 

The atonement must be available to the murderer, otherwise how can we be so certain that it applies to any other sin or action? Either it can rescue all of us, or none of us.

 

I think some of the things told us about Spirit Prison may be not fully correct, also.  Alma 36 gives us a tale of Spirit Prison as Alma seems to have a Near Death Experience. He sought to destroy souls, not just men's mortal lives (which is worse?). He had to repent, but it took him only 3 days of suffering to get to a point to fully repent. Once done, he was rescued from the pain, and could see God on his throne from a distance.  

 

Paul, who knew the same Law of Moses as did King David, went about killing Christians. Yet, he was forgiven.  

 

That is the beauty of the atonement of Christ - it is designed to exalt and save a maximum number of people. We are not followers of Calvin's TULIP, which teachings a limited atonement. We believe God offers the maximum salvation to all who will but believe and repent, They then receive the level of salvation which they are ready to receive. After decades of repentance, I believe King David was beyond the barest of salvations in the Telestial Kingdom, and probably was saved in the Celestial Kingdom.

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Guest MormonGator

Lady Gator and I have been talking about this issue due to recent events. She made the very good point that it's easy for we, the living to preach and lecture about forgiveness (not saying anyone is preaching or lecturing here, one of the many things I love about this site is you don't see preaching or lecturing)  but it might be tougher for the friends and families of the victims-not to mention the victims themselves. If you punch me in the face I can turn the other cheek/punch back/or just forgive you. But if you shoot me dead, simply put, I can't forgive you because I'm a corpse. 

 

Lady Gator is the smart one in the family.   I'm just the eye candy. 

Edited by MormonGator
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Guest LiterateParakeet

 I believe King David was beyond the barest of salvations in the Telestial Kingdom, and probably was saved in the Celestial Kingdom.

 

I loved your whole post, but I especially like this part.  I hope you are right.  I've always felt bad about King David.  

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Maybe I misread; however, I didn't read any mention to "Anti-Nephi-Lehi's"?  They were murderers and yet we know they found forgiveness and look at the sons they raised.

 

I can't see Ted Bundy receiving any forgiveness for his sins, even if he came to a point of truly feeling sorry for his murders before he died.

 

The D&C seems pretty clear that David fell from grace and will not inherit the all the Father hath.  

 

Would it be just for God to condemn a child who has been taught to hate and murder specific citizens of specific nations?  It would not be just.

 

It appears the lack of forgiveness for murder is directly connected to our knowledge and our motivation.  Self-defense is still killing -- murder, and yet we do not condemn or think one who kills in self-defense is a murderer.  Would a prophet of God, or a Lord's anointed find forgiveness in this life and the next if they were to murder, or would they loose their reward?  In disciplinary councils, the calling of an individual is taken into consideration in determining the Lord's will regarding outcome. 

 

What about Cain? Did the atonement cover his murder of Abel?  I would say it did not.

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Some interesting reading at https://boaporg.wordpress.com/2010/06/22/joseph-smiths-david-doctrine-and-king-follett-i/, including this (harsh) tidbit from Joseph Smith:

Even David, must wait for those times of refreshing, before he can come forth and his sins be blotted out; for Peter speaking of him says, “David hath not yet ascended into Heaven, for his sepulchre is with us to this day:” his remains were then in the tomb. Now we read that many bodies of the saints arose, at Christ’s resurrection, probably all the saints, but it seems that David did not. Why? because he had been a murderer.

If the ministers of religion had a proper understanding of the doctrine of eternal judgment, they would not be found attending the man who had forfeited his life to the injured laws of his country by shedding innocent blood; for such characters cannot be forgiven, until they have paid the last farthing. The prayers of all the ministers in the world could never close the gates of hell against a Murderer.

The link LP cites attributes to Smith the idea that David may be eligible for a terrestrial glory; but I don't see a source for that anywhere. My reading of D&C 76 has always been that those who go to hell are redeemed to a telestial, not a terrestrial state.

I think this makes sense for "murderers"--that the scope of their forgiveness is limited and their future powers over life and death as an exalted being are forever denied--with the caveat that what society or even the law deems "murder" probably very often doesn't align with what God deems "murder".

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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This has been discussed here before, but no one this time has mentioned Moses killing the Egyptian.

 

On an earlier thread someone came up with a convoluted argument that this wasn't really murder because Moses was doing what he had to do to save the Israelite that the Egyptian was beating. Let's face it (and please excuse the sarcasm): what other option would a prince of Egypt have?

 

There's also the matter of David killing the man who brought him the crown. OK - so this man had just killed the king, but only because the king had told him to do it. (I always felt sorry for that guy.)

 

And then there's Joab killing Absalom, after David has expressly told him not to. (Though I suppose Joab did later come to a sticky end because of this.)

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But if you shoot me dead, simply put, I can't forgive you because I'm a corpse.

This is not true. Your body is a corpse. Your spirit is not. And it is your spirit that needs to exercise forgiveness. Therefore, even the dead need to learn to forgive those who trespassed against them lest forgiveness of their own sins will be difficult to attain in the spirit world.

Edited by anatess
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