can murderers hope for anything above the Telestial kingdom?


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This is not true. Your body is a corpse. Your spirit is not. And it is your spirit that needs to exercise forgiveness. Therefore, even the dead need to learn to forgive those who trespassed against them lest forgiveness of their own sins will be difficult to attain in the spirit world.

You and I believe that (assuming you do, please don't take offense) but since it's a matter of faith, it's hard to argue that point to someone who just lost their daughter to an abusive boyfriend or something. It's hard dealing with matters of faith because they can't be proven. That's why it's called it faith. 

 

But I see your point. 

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You and I believe that (assuming you do, please don't take offense) but since it's a matter of faith, it's hard to argue that point to someone who just lost their daughter to an abusive boyfriend or something. It's hard dealing with matters of faith because they can't be proven. That's why it's called it faith. 

 

But I see your point.

Yes, it's a matter of faith, but it is doctrinal.

Yes, it is hard for someone who lost a loved one to a murderer to think of solicitous thoughts in the murderer's favor. It is an absolute horror. At the risk of sounding insensitive, we are still commanded to love that neighbor. So, my faith will have to be placed on the promise that forgiveness brings us peace.

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Guest MormonGator

Yes, it's a matter of faith, but it is doctrinal.

Yes, it is hard for someone who lost a loved one to a murderer to think of solicitous thoughts in the murderer's favor. It is an absolute horror. At the risk of sounding insensitive, we are still commanded to love that neighbor. So, my faith will have to be placed on the promise that forgiveness brings us peace.

I love the point you made. I've seen people from other religions coldly say "Just forgive" without even realizing how difficult it could be for some people. Well said Anatess. 

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I love the point you made. I've seen people from other religions coldly say "Just forgive" without even realizing how difficult it could be for some people. Well said Anatess. 

 

Quite right - it's incredibly hard. But is it any harder than "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."?

 

I don't think many of God's commandments are actually going to be obeyed in this life!

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Quite right - it's incredibly hard. But is it any harder than "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."?

 

I don't think many of God's commandments are actually going to be obeyed in this life!

 Yup, I agree. Like I said, my problem is when people don't admit how hard it can be and just say "Well you have no choice. Shut up and forgive." Doesn't work that way. 

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This is the answer:

 

 

To my understanding we are judged according to the light and knowledge we have.  We read in the book of Alma chapter 39 verse 6:

 

" . . . yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness."

 

The Inspired version of the Bible in Luke chapter 12 verses 47 to 48 reads:

"And that servant who knew his Lord’s will, and prepared not for his Lord’s coming, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."


These are my opinions-

Someone who sheds innocent blood, knowing that they are doing so, or not knowing because they have fought against the light of Christ until it has no place in them; they are most likely in serious spiritual jeopardy.

 

Someone who sheds innocent blood because they were taught as a child that a group of people are infidels and need to be killed are probably going to have those sins placed upon the heads of those who taught them.

 

Someone who sheds innocent blood because of a mental disorder caused by a physical defect (not resulting from someone else's actions) will probably not be accountable and forgiven through the Atonement.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

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We will have to wait and see what happens with King David and others.  However, we have to agree that the atonement of Christ can save and even exalt the murderer who fully repents and changes.  Murderers like Cain, who glory in their wickedness, will not be redeemed, simply because they refuse to repent and embrace the atonement of Christ.  But David spent years in mortality repenting, and probably many more years in the Spirit World also doing so.  Let us remember that not all of Spirit Prison is hell, as many who die without the gospel will go there until they hear and accept the gospel.

 

We do not know how much gospel knowledge that David had. He lived under the Mosaic Law, without a full knowledge of Christ and the atonement.  Having closely studied the Book of Mormon, which can bring us closer to God than any other book, I have come to conclude that Christ's atonement is much bigger and greater than we can imagine.  It may be that we find that there will even be progression between kingdoms, as individuals repent and become worthy of greater glory - why else would D&C 76 have those in the higher kingdoms go down to minister and teach those in the lower kingdoms?

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We Evangelicals often get accused of selling grace cheap.  Sometimes we do--such as when we imply that true redemption need not produce a changed life.  On the other hand, the idea that God would not fully forgive any repentant sinner--even a murderer--well, does that limitation not cheapen grace?  Does it not say that Christ's sacrifice was only somewhat effective.  I would guess that there must be a few LDS leaders who have suggested that King David--a murderer, liar, and adulterer--has the potential to go all the way (exaltation?).  No?

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We Evangelicals often get accused of selling grace cheap.  Sometimes we do--such as when we imply that true redemption need not produce a changed life.  On the other hand, the idea that God would not fully forgive any repentant sinner--even a murderer--well, does that limitation not cheapen grace?  Does it not say that Christ's sacrifice was only somewhat effective.  I would guess that there must be a few LDS leaders who have suggested that King David--a murderer, liar, and adulterer--has the potential to go all the way (exaltation?).  No?

 

I have never read such a statement from any of our prophets, seers, revelatory -- here are some quotes

Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained the limits of David’s eternal inheritance:

“Murderers are forgiven eventually but only in the sense that all sins are forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; they are not forgiven in the sense that celestial salvation is made available to them. (Matt. 12:31–32; Teachings, pp. 356–357.) After they have paid the full penalty for their crime, they shall go on to a telestial inheritance. (Rev. 22:15.)” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 520.)

“As to crimes for which no adequate restoration is possible, I have suggested … that perhaps the reason murder is an unforgivable sin is that, once having taken a life—whether that life be innocent or reprobate—the life-taker cannot restore it. He may give his own life as payment, but this does not wholly undo the injury done by his crime. He might support the widow and children; he might do many other noble things; but a life is gone and the restitution of it in full is impossible. Repentance in the ordinary sense seems futile.

“Murder is so treacherous and so far-reaching! Those who lose their possessions may be able to recover their wealth. Those defamed may still be able to prove themselves above reproach. Even the loss of chastity leaves the soul in mortality with opportunity to recover and repent and to make amends to some degree. But to take a life, whether someone else’s or one’s own, cuts off the victim’s experiences of mortality and thus his opportunity to repent, to keep God’s commandments in this earth life. It interferes with his potential of having ‘glory added upon [his head] for ever and ever.’ (Abraham 3:26.)” (Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 195–96.)

LinkEventually, David received the assurance that his soul would be “delivered … from the lowest hell” (Psalm 86:12–13). But this assurance could not restore the blessings he had lost. They were gone forever (see D&C 132:39).

I am sure there are others; although all I have read have specified he shall not receive all the Father hath.

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And I disagree with Elder McConkie and others who limit the atonement. That is not what the scriptures say.  We are not saved nor exalted because of what we do or don't do. We are because of what Christ did.  As Pres Uchtdorf said, we are saved by grace. Period.  Don't forget that Elder McConkie considered the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms as a form of damnation, almost to the point of making them sound like levels of hell.  He was wrong on it, as he was wrong on blacks and the priesthood. 

 

I wish we had a rule to toss out most of our GA books that are over 30 years old. Why? Because we do not believe today as they did back then. We've hopefully received more revelation and a better understanding of the gospel since then.

 

I suggest we all read the Conference talks from April. There are 3 or 4 that discuss the atonement. Elder Holland talked about us forever falling into the abyss, and Christ grabs us. We are not grabbing him, he does the rescue.  The atonement is greater than the apostles in the 1960s understood. It saved the murderous Lamanites. It saved the murderous Moses. It saved the murderous Saul. It saved the murderous Alma. It saves Hitler, Stalin, and Chairman Mao.  

 

Christ offers exaltation to everyone. To the level we repent is the level of our salvation. We receive the amount of salvation we are willing and able to receive.  If we are willing to receive 100 percent of salvation, then we receive exaltation through Christ Jesus.

 

To believe anything less is to limit God's power and His love for His children.  And if he does not love us with an infinite love, then we may as well just be Calvinists, who believe in a limited atonement, rather than in the near universal atonement that LDS scriptures teach about.

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All the conference talks isn't going to change Doctrine & Covenants 132: 39 regarding King David falling from exaltation.  I don't see how anyone can interpret this scripture any other way, and this scripture definitely doesn't "limit" the atonement, and we know it was the murder of Uriah as the catalyst to his down fall.

 

Unless someone can provide an accurate, believable, alternate interpretation of the meaning of exaltation.  I know of only one true definition of exaltation -- Exalted with God the Father, receiving all he has with Christ.

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I suppose that when one puts a lot of time into apologetics, one gets used to taking McConkie's statements about pretty much anything with a grain of salt.  :D

 

But, given the section of D&C to which Anddenex cites as well as near-unanimity by prior GAs on this matter all the way back to Joseph Smith in conjunction with the lack of an explicit contradiction by the current GAs, I'm disinclined to set the idea aside just yet.  To say that a "murderer" (again, using God's definition rather than man's definition for that term) will not have the privilege of spending eternity creating new worlds, populating the same, and using his absolute discretion to determine when the mortal existences of each one of those created beings will end; is not to say that this murderer is not still far better off with Christ than without Him, or to deny that the murderer has still been "saved" from an infinitely more horrific fate.

 

We know, from the Book of Mormon, that there are some sins with eternal repercussions--procrastination of repentance, for one (Hel 13:38 and Alma 34:33), and counting on God's mercy to excuse sin and complacency, for another (2 Ne 28:8, 21-22).  We obviously can't save ourselves--but apparently, we're more than capable of sending ourselves to Hell. 

 

Having established, then, that that there are at least some sins that permanently close the door to exaltation--why can't murder be one of those sins?  Is the murderer standing at the bar of the Third District Court in Salt Lake, any less penitent than the procrastinator or the libertine will be when standing at the Bar of the Supreme Court at the final judgment?  I think not.  Rather, it is the show of penitence that moves us with compassion and the hope that full restoration will be possible; and since we can already see the fruits of repentance in the imprisoned murderer it is him that we pity and it is for him that we hope the Plan of Salvation offers a loophole for exaltation.  That's a noble, even divine, desire--to a point.

 

On the other hand--"compassion" was a major selling point of Lucifer's offer to save everyone.  It was a beautiful idea, with the only problem being that it just plain wouldn't work.  And in this case, when we get too Universalist in our eschatology, we can't help but deny any absolute nexus between what we do in the here-and-now and the qualitative reward we receive in the hereafter--which in turn fundamentally nullifies the importance of proclaiming the Gospel, temple work, "hastening", "rescue", Christlike living, and pretty much every other initiative or injunction we've received from our Church leaders past and present.  We also make elements of the Plan of Salvation redundant (if you're going to give the recalcitrant multiple chances at an earth life until they attain exaltation, then no need for perdition, Telestial, Terrestrial, or the lower levels of the Celestial kingdoms.  If perdition, Telestial, Terrestrial, or the lower levels of the Celestial kingdoms are just training ground for exaltation, no need for an earth life.) 

 

The power and genius of the Atonement is that it satisfies both justice and mercy; not that it strong-arms the one into submission to the other.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I think Paul makes the point that to violate any element of the law is essentially the same as violating the entire law--I don't remember off the top of my head if he compares it to murder or not. 

 

It's certainly a valid point in the context of Paul's larger argument--that it's impossible to obey perfectly and therefore impossible to save ourselves, and therefore we all need Christ's saving power.

 

But I think those who cite Paul's words for the proposition that God doesn't think that torture, murder, or rape are any worse than stealing a fifty-cent stick of gum, are stretching things mightily.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Sticking with King David, I understand that the Jewish people consider him their greatest king ever--and perhaps the greatest of their people.  The Book of Acts tells us he was a man after God's own heart.  He failed miserably, but repented and recovered magnificently.  Frankly, if his atonement is limited, I'm not sure any of us have much hope.

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Sticking with King David, I understand that the Jewish people consider him their greatest king ever--and perhaps the greatest of their people.  The Book of Acts tells us he was a man after God's own heart.  He failed miserably, but repented and recovered magnificently.  Frankly, if his atonement is limited, I'm not sure any of us have much hope.

 

I think sometimes, as Mormons, we're too quick to dismiss any form of "salvation" that doesn't include exaltation (and yeah, I think McConkie did fall into this trap sometimes in his public discourse).  But Mormon theology teaches that the Telestial (including, one presumes, David) will--after a period of punishment--still inherit an afterlife that pretty closely tracks the orthodox Christian view of heaven (at least, as I understand it).

 

So, exaltation or not, there's still plenty to hope for.  :)

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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JAG, maybe my nine years here has created spiritual greed. However, if I get the levels right, neither the Father, nor the Son, are in the Telestial Kingdom. Though better than here, I'd tend to agree with Bro. McConkie.

Granted; but the Telestial do receive ministration of the Holy Spirit (D&C 76:86). Now, obviously we don't know precisely what that entails; but even so--looking at the bare text of that phrase, isn't that more or less what a Trinitarian Christian (who, as I understand it, would reject the idea of a corporeal Father and a separate corporeal Son existing distinctly from the Holy Spirit) would anticipate in the hereafter? Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Two things jump out at me along this discussion, more but won't make a novel out of a post here.  What's being described here seems like it's stemmed from the Catholic belief in Purgatory, a place between heaven and earth where the souls are purged from this world and made worthy to enter the kingdom of heaven for eternity.  

 

There is also mentioned, the whole struggle with the trinity, how two seperate entities can be seen, side by side, God the Father and God the son.  Isn't is stated where Jesus is, Mark 16:19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

 

He goes on to explain that even though he's leaving, he's returning in another form, that of the Holy Spirit, for he's not orphaning them as he stated.

 

Now, opposing side of this, Genesis, Let "us" make man in our own image.   This connotates there is more then one if taken literally.  Do we then assume there is no trinity, but only three entities working together?  Nope, for what is the first commandment: You shall have no other gods before me. doesn't imply there are three but one, and you are forced to decide along how He established the trinity prior to creation, thus Father, Son, Holy Spirit were the same one God, but established in different manners, such as when someone puts on a tool belt, drives an auto and talks on the phone, same person performing three rolls and tasks.

 

With the other reference along Paul talking along how we all need Christs grace, some people skim over the whole "equally" part.  The fact of the matter is, it's not about simply conforming to a set of rules or system at all, else the old testiment would still be in place.  The reality is, our fallen state, our human existance as created beings is in a flawed state by default, something we inherited from Adam.  Even on simple terms, what does God have any use for along the function and use of eyes, ears, mouth, nose, as is formed within the physical make up of a human being?  This must mean something else when it's stated "created in HIs image", and it's a spiritual creation, a soul, a spark of his own essence when it comes down to it.  Can God add or take away from Himself?  Ask yourself another question, can God make a rock too heavy for Him to lift?  It's the same thinking we have to understand, and to be honest, I see far, far too much focus on external elements rather then internal.  Some of the most "clean living", perfectly squeaky clean looking and acting can be some of the absolute worse sinners of all, worse then murderers, because their hearts and minds are not right...

 

It is written a whole slew of type of sinners will not enter the kingdom of heaven, but it specifically goes on to strongly condemn, to the point of saying the individual is cursed for leading "these little ones astray", and even after the list, it goes on to state that all sin is forgivable except for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.....  I don't need to get too much into the latter here, but just saying what it is, plainly along this topic, the original one.

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Granted; but the Telestial do receive ministration of the Holy Spirit (D&C 76:86). Now, obviously we don't know precisely what that entails; but even so--looking at the bare text of that phrase, isn't that more or less what a Trinitarian Christian (who, as I understand it, would reject the idea of a corporeal Father and a separate corporeal Son existing distinctly from the Holy Spirit) would anticipate in the hereafter?

 

Shadowlands...no, ministrations of the Holy Spirit would not compare with the Kingdom of Heaven, in which the very presence of God illumines.  We expect God's presence to be so permeating of the very atmosphere.  So, for haters of God, heaven would be hell--because God's presence would be in every breath, smell, taste, sound, and sight.  Even the Terrestial Kingdom would not quite match (except maybe for modalists). 

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