can murderers hope for anything above the Telestial kingdom?

[The Folk Prophet]

My calling is to offer redemption--salvation--to some folks who've done some really bad things.  I'd struggle to think I could only offer them a limited heavenly hope.

 

I think (and not that we are the one's to judge...but just as related to the discussion) that there is a distinct difference to offering the full measure of heavenly hope to one who has been, for example, raised in a broken home, involved in gangs, on drugs, and negatively influenced by a myriad of things in this life, who then does really bad things. It is different, even, for one who lives in a nice home, has good employment, good education, etc., and is drawn into perversions by various sources, etc., and does really bad things.

 

It is decidedly something else to walk daily guided by a prophet, to be uplifted by the Lord in all that one does, to have one's enemies defeated, to be raised as king of a nation, to be given wealth beyond measure, etc., to have a firm witness and knowledge of God, His love and blessings, and then to murder someone to cover up adultery.

 

Even then, of course, we don't judge. In the case of David, the only reason we have an expectation of his status is due to direct modern-day LDS revelation by way of scripture on the matter. And even then, such information is only meant to be used as a warning for those who have been so blessed. Beware. Even the mighty may fall if they allow themselves to give into the carnal man.

 

As has been stated, it's related to accountability which comes from knowledge.

 

Point being, I dare say that your offering of the full measure of heavenly hope is entirely appropriate for those you minister to.

Edited June 23, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Finrock]

I feel fairly confident that at my level of knowledge and understanding that were I to intentionally go out and murder someone that I'd be done as far as the exaltation thing goes.

 

 

Hi The Folk Prophet!

 

I don't mean this as a cut down and I am not expecting a response, but perhaps you think too highly of yourself? Are you sure that is how God sees you or judges you? Have you received an assurance from God that this is where you stand with Him?

 

-Finrock

[The Folk Prophet]

Hi The Folk Prophet!

 

I don't mean this as a cut down and I am not expecting a response, but perhaps you think too highly of yourself? Are you sure that is how God sees you or judges you? Have you received an assurance from God that this is where you stand with Him?

 

-Finrock

 

I am a temple endowed, eternally sealed, holder of the Holy Priesthood of God with a solid witness from the Spirit of the truth of the gospel. I know where I stand.

[Just_A_Guy]

TFP, I think Finrock is hinting at whether you've had your calling & election made sure.  That's an interesting aspect I hadn't really considered--assuming Joseph's and the scriptures' statements about David's losing his exaltation are accurate, are they accurate because David committed murder per se?  Or are they accurate because David committed murder after having had his calling and election made sure (see, e.g., D&C 132:19, 26)?  (And, do we even know that David did have his calling & election made sure?  I rather suspect he didn't.)

Edited June 23, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Finrock]

I think Paul makes the point that to violate any element of the law is essentially the same as violating the entire law--I don't remember off the top of my head if he compares it to murder or not. 

 

It's certainly a valid point in the context of Paul's larger argument--that it's impossible to obey perfectly and therefore impossible to save ourselves, and therefore we all need Christ's saving power.

 

But I think those who cite Paul's words for the proposition that God doesn't think that torture, murder, or rape are any worse than stealing a fifty-cent stick of gum, are stretching things mightily.

 

I think Paul's larger point though is that we are not to judge. We, like sheep, have all gone astray. We have all gone after our own way.

 

As a young man my father caught me using smokeless tobacco. He took me aside one day and asked me a question. He said, "Son, if the devil appeared to you in this room right now and said that he would give you anything that you want in the world if you would just bow down and worship him, what would you say to him? As if the answer was obvious I said, of course I wouldn't worship him! In response my dad asked, "But you would worship him for a can of smokeless tobacco?"

 

Our actions alone do not determine where we end up. We might never violate the letter of the law, yet if our hearts are corrupt it will be counted unto us as if we had done evil. A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit, neither does a good tree bring forth evil fruit. 

 

In the end God will judge us by our thoughts, our words, our actions, and the condition of our hearts, taking everything in to account, and ALL of us will be found lacking unless we have exercised faith in Jesus Christ. But once a man has repented and has changed and has been saved it doesn't matter if his sins were as red as scarlet they shall be as white as snow.

 

-Finrock

[The Folk Prophet]

TFP, I think Finrock is hinting at whether you've had your calling & election made sure.  That's an interesting aspect I hadn't really considered--assuming Joseph's and the scriptures' statements about David's losing his exaltation are accurate, are they accurate because David committed murder per se?  Or are they accurate because David committed murder after having had his calling and election made sure (see, e.g., D&C 132:19, 26)?  (And, do we even know that David did have his calling & election made sure?  I rather suspect he didn't.)

 

If this is the point, then putting it in terms of "TFP must be ridiculously arrogant" (as in "you think too highly of yourself") isn't particularly accurate or fair. It may be, as you point out, that I am mistaken on what might qualify one for the inability to be forgiven of murder.

 

I do not think that is required and don't read D&C 132 as proof positive that it is. (It only teaches that if one's calling and election is sure that murder can still mess it up -- not that calling and election sure is required for murder to otherwise mess things up). But even if I'm wrong, that view certainly has nothing to do with me thinking highly of myself.

 

That being said, how could anyone know or presume who does and who does not, even in these forums, have their calling and elections sure.

[Just_A_Guy]

I believe it was Prof. Millet who made this point with Rev. Greg Johnson, in one of their "Convicted Conversations."  However, even Bro. Millet referred to the TERRESTIAL kingdom, not the Telestial one.  Again, I'm told that third level is reserved for those who were not generally of good will, who made little or know effort to connect with God or spirituality, and who simply were not ungodly enough to warrant actual punishment.  That such a kingdom exists, and is blessed, rather than cursed, would demonstrate God's mercy, but would hardly be comparable with a traditional understanding of Heaven.  Our Heaven includes the presence of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--so much so that illuminations comes from them (no need for sun or moon).  Believers will "rule and reign" with Jesus.  There will be on-going praise and worship.  The fellowship is always precious, and martyrs will be particularly esteemed.  So, there might be some argument that the Terrestial Kingdom, where, at least Jesus, is present, bares similarities to the traditional understandings--but the Telestial?    

 

Okay, but other than the thousand-years-in-hell thing and the Terrestrial's role as ministers to the Telestial, what is the qualitative difference between the final states of the Terrestrial and the Telestial--and, more importantly, between either of those, versus the classical Christian view of heaven? 

--Our Heaven includes the presence of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit . . . Maybe you can explain the Trinity to me a bit more; but as I understand Trinitarian thought, following Jesus' ascent and return to heaven there is no longer any corporeal distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost--to enjoy the presence of one is to enjoy the presence of all; and none of them have the form of an actual body of flesh and blood.  If this is right, then I don't see how the Terrestrial/Telestial kingdoms don't involve exactly the sort of communion with God that mainline Christians expect.  It's not that, in the Terrestrial/Telestial kingdoms, the relationship with the Holy Spirit is qualitatively inferior to the relationship with the Trinity that mainline Christians anticipate with the entire Godhead--it's just that inhabitants of the Terrestrial/Telestial kingdoms, being now aware of the (as we see it) "true nature" of God, have to live with a (so far as we know) perpetual inferiority complex; whereas inhabitants of the traditional Christian heaven don't.

--. . . so much so that illuminations comes from them (no need for sun or moon).  I confess, I don't know to what degree Mormonism teaches about eternal astronomical features or physics.  :)

--Believers will "rule and reign" with Jesus.  Honestly, I'm confused here; because Mormonism has perhaps the most literal view of this (via its idea of exaltation/theosis) of any religion I'm aware of--and mainline Christians tend to dismiss it as blasphemy.  So, what does "rule and reign with Jesus" mean, then; and who precisely are the believers ruling and reigning over?  Is this statement intended to be absolute to all believers?  Does mainline Christianity really believe that Herbert Kappler, who died a Christian, will rule and reign over Anne Frank, who did not?

--There will be on-going praise and worship.  Yes, I think Mormonism believes this about the Terrestrial/Telestial kingdoms, too.

--The fellowship is always precious, and martyrs will be particularly esteemed.  Again--ditto. 

Edited June 23, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[The Folk Prophet]

the Terrestrial/Telestial kingdoms, being now aware of the (as we see it) "true nature" of God, have to live with a (so far as we know) perpetual inferiority complex; 

 

Awesomely spoken, sir!  Well deserving of an emoticon. 

 

Eeny, meeny, miny....

[Just_A_Guy]

I think Paul's larger point though is that we are not to judge.

 

Okay, but what are the contours of this prescribed non-judginess?  Is the Church under obligation to immediately baptize all murderers who request it, without passing such requests on to the First Presidency for approval?  And if it's not, then do the members have the prerogative to defend the Church's current policy with citations to statements of LDS leadership and scripture?

 

But once a man has repented and has changed and has been saved it doesn't matter if his sins were as red as scarlet they shall be as white as snow.

 

The staggering majority of them, yes--but not quite all of them, according to the canonized Law of the Church.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest MormonGator]

Theologians? We don't need no stinkin' theologians. We've already got more lawyers than you can shake a stick at--and that's practically the same thing.

 

 "If I really wanted to a punish a country, I'd have it governed by philosophers and theologians."-Fredrick the Great 

[prisonchaplain]

Okay, but other than the thousand-years-in-hell thing and the Terrestrial's role as ministers to the Telestial, what is the qualitative difference between the final states of the Terrestrial and the Telestial--and, more importantly, between either of those, versus the classical Christian view of heaven? 

 

Prisonchaplain:  I do not have much knowledge of the distinctions of the three heavens.  As an outsider I assumed it was something like Bronze, Silver, Gold.

 

--Our Heaven includes the presence of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit . . . Maybe you can explain the Trinity to me a bit more; but as I understand Trinitarian thought, following Jesus' ascent and return to heaven there is no longer any corporeal distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost--to enjoy the presence of one is to enjoy the presence of all; and none of them have the form of an actual body of flesh and blood. 

 

Prisonchaplain:  Many of us believe that Jesus will retain his physical body--glorified, yet bearing the scars of his ordeal.

 

If this is right, then I don't see how the Terrestrial/Telestial kingdoms don't involve exactly the sort of communion with God that mainline Christians expect.  It's not that, in the Terrestrial/Telestial kingdoms, the relationship with the Holy Spirit is qualitatively inferior to the relationship with the Trinity that mainline Christians anticipate with the entire Godhead--it's just that inhabitants of the Terrestrial/Telestial kingdoms, being now aware of the (as we see it) "true nature" of God, have to live with a (so far as we know) perpetual inferiority complex; whereas inhabitants of the traditional Christian heaven don't.

 

Prisonchaplain:  If my understanding of the LDS Godhead is correct, the Holy Spirit is in perfect agreement with the Father and Son, yet remains essentially distinct and separate.  Thus, if there is a Telestial Kingdom (or even a section of Heaven) where he resides apart from the Father and Son, the I know enough that there is an infinite difference qualitatively between the Holy Spirit representing the Father and Son vs. the Father and Son actually being among us.

 

--. . . so much so that illuminations comes from them (no need for sun or moon).  I confess, I don't know to what degree Mormonism teaches about eternal astronomical features or physics.  :)

--Believers will "rule and reign" with Jesus.  Honestly, I'm confused here; because Mormonism has perhaps the most literal view of this (via its idea of exaltation/theosis) of any religion I'm aware of--and mainline Christians tend to dismiss it as blasphemy.  So, what does "rule and reign with Jesus" mean, then; and who precisely are the believers ruling and reigning over?  Is this statement intended to be absolute to all believers?  Does mainline Christianity really believe that Herbert Kappler, who died a Christian, will rule and reign over Anne Frank, who did not?

 

Prisonchaplain:  Scriptures about our life after the 1000 reign are notoriously vague.  The phrase comes from Paul, when he was blaming the Corinthians for seeking lawsuits against one another, in secular court.  He says we will judge angels in heaven, why can't we settle small matters amongst ourselves?  There are similar phrases about our ruling and reigning with Christ.  How that plays out, we do not know. 

 

You do highlight another difference.  In the traditional concept of heaven, if Ann Frank never gave herself over to the Master, then there is no redemption--not even a Telestial reward.  Further, there will be some who have done great evil, yet who repented sincerely, and will receive a great heavenly reward.  How is that fair?  We must begin with the reality that no one is worthy of heaven.  Then, to remember that God is pure good, pure justice.  So, every decision about who makes it and does not will be right.  I dare say there will be more surprise at who gets in than at who does not.

 

--There will be on-going praise and worship.  Yes, I think Mormonism believes this about the Terrestrial/Telestial kingdoms, too.

--The fellowship is always precious, and martyrs will be particularly esteemed.  Again--ditto. 

 

Prisonchaplain:  I'm guessing that the Telestial residents will have learned this in the afterlife?  Will these residents all be converted in spirit prison?

[The Folk Prophet]

 I dare say there will be more surprise at who gets in than at who does not.

 

http://southpark.cc.com/clips/152270/abandon-all-hope

[Traveler]

It is my impression that many posting here do not understand the atonement and how it plays out in the great plan of Salvation.  Contrary to what many are preaching; the plan of salvation and atonement is not about rewards and punishment.   It is about repentance.

 

Regardless of what any reader has done and regardless of what they knew or thought they knew when they did it - I believe and preach only the message of repentance and that if someone repents they can and will be forgiven.  I stand by the doctrine of repentance and that those that repent - though their sins be as scarlet - that are forgiven and their garments will be as clean and white as that of anyone and any saint - because Christ has redeemed and paid the price of all sins.

[prisonchaplain]

It is my impression that many posting here do not understand the atonement and how it plays out in the great plan of Salvation.  Contrary to what many are preaching; the plan of salvation and atonement is not about rewards and punishment.   It is about repentance.

 

Regardless of what any reader has done and regardless of what they knew or thought they knew when they did it - I believe and preach only the message of repentance and that if someone repents they can and will be forgiven.  I stand by the doctrine of repentance and that those that repent - though their sins be as scarlet - that are forgiven and their garments will be as clean and white as that of anyone and any saint - because Christ has redeemed and paid the price of all sins.

 

Amen.

[rameumptom]

PC, you are right regarding the Terrestrial being a place for many Christians and others who are the "honorable men of the earth" (D&C 76).  The average Christian (and probably Mormon Christian) will find himself there.  Only the very worst, who struggle at repenting and only do so because they suffer pains of guilt in the Spirit Prison (or even here), will enter the Telestial Kingdom.

 

And I agree that for us, it is all about repenting. That is exactly what King Anti-Nephi-Lehi said to his people, "all we can do is repent".

[Just_A_Guy]

PC, many thanks for sticking with me on this.  Just a couple of clarifications, to round out the discussion:

 

Prisonchaplain:  I do not have much knowledge of the distinctions of the three heavens.  As an outsider I assumed it was something like Bronze, Silver, Gold.

 

In fairness, I think most Mormons think this way too; and I think the key difference in what these realms are like (from the Mormon perspective) is the degree of communion one has with each individual member of the Godhead.

 

Thus, if there is a Telestial Kingdom (or even a section of Heaven) where he resides apart from the Father and Son, the I know enough that there is an infinite difference qualitatively between the Holy Spirit representing the Father and Son vs. the Father and Son actually being among us.

 

I'll have to take your word for it, I suppose.  But it strikes me that knowing that the Holy Spirit is not one and the same as the Father and the Son would be the only qualitative problem.  If, for example, a Trinitarian went to the Terrestrial Kingdom never knowing that the doctrine of the Trinity was incorrect--I submit that he might easily assume that he had indeed received the highest plane of existence that God has to offer.

 

You do highlight another difference.  In the traditional concept of heaven, if Ann Frank never gave herself over to the Master, then there is no redemption--not even a Telestial reward. . . .

 

I'm guessing that the Telestial residents will have learned this [about Christ] in the afterlife?  Will these residents all be converted in spirit prison?

 

I don't know that my thinking on this precisely matches LDS orthodoxy; but answering for myself: yes.  I think that's where "every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ" comes in.  I believe that perdition/outer darkness is reserved for those who will not accept Christ on any terms or under any circumstances, and would rather be utterly destroyed than be subject to/reconciled with Him.

[prisonchaplain]

JAG, on the knowledge of heavens, the reality is that we will know.  Our theologies are likely the same on this point--we will see as Jesus sees.  So, even in the Terrestial Kingdom, if I were to find that I could never have full fellowship with the Father, I'd likely be sorely disappointed.  Finally, concerning conversions to the Telestial Kingdom vs. outer darkness, C.S. Lewis wrote a book called The Great Divorce.  I only read a synopsis, but he portrays a group from hell being given a tour of heaven, how the guides all but begged them to renounce their rebellion, but how the ultimate stuck to their decisions, because they would not give up their attitudes (rebellion, sarcasm, selfishness, etc.). 

 

Thank you, as well.  I believe I have learned quite a bit from this string.  Thank you Ram, too.  :-)  Oh...and The Folk Prophet, as well.  In some ways, I probably gain the greatest insights from those who support the prophets, and find no need to justify their allegiance.

Edited June 23, 2015 by prisonchaplain

[Finrock]

TFP, I think Finrock is hinting at whether you've had your calling & election made sure.  That's an interesting aspect I hadn't really considered--assuming Joseph's and the scriptures' statements about David's losing his exaltation are accurate, are they accurate because David committed murder per se?  Or are they accurate because David committed murder after having had his calling and election made sure (see, e.g., D&C 132:19, 26)?  (And, do we even know that David did have his calling & election made sure?  I rather suspect he didn't.)

 

I am a temple endowed, eternally sealed, holder of the Holy Priesthood of God with a solid witness from the Spirit of the truth of the gospel. I know where I stand.

 

I certainly believe that having your calling and election made sure is a factor in this discussion and what I stated was in part about that. However, it isn't all that I was thinking. Perhaps this scripture will help:

 

1 Cor. 13

 

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

Also, repetence is a choice. I believe that during our probationary period we never lose the opportunity to repent, we only choose to not repent. Its not so much about what we do than it is about who we are or who we, in all sincerity and desire, want to be.

 

-Finrock

Edited June 23, 2015 by Finrock

[Just_A_Guy]

Finally, concerning conversions to the Telestial Kingdom vs. outer darkness, C.S. Lewis wrote a book called The Great Divorce.  I only read a synopsis, but he portrays a group from hell being given a tour of heaven, how the guides all but begged them to renounce their rebellion, but how the ultimate stuck to their decisions, because they would not give up their attitudes (rebellion, sarcasm, selfishness, etc.).

 

Yeah, that's how I imagine perdition--like that scene in Revenge of the Sith, where Anakin's right by the lava floe, about to fall in, and his arms and legs are severed, and Obi Wan is up above, but Anakin can't bring himself to ask for help and just growls "I hate you!!!".

 

It's not that God can't "save" them.  It's that they don't want to be saved.  Their hatred has consumed them.

[rameumptom]

PC,

 

read Alma 36. Alma has a Near Death Experience, where he begins in Spirit Prison and moves to Paradise. You'll note that he is in God's presence, but from a distance, wishing he could be closer.

 

Also note that in D&C 76, it states that those in higher kingdoms will descend to teach those in the lower kingdoms.

[siouxsie43]

Thing i don't get is we get so busy analyzing the topic that we forget how simplistic the Lord is. Anyone that dies before getting a chance to work out their salvation and be baptized, etc. Can have a second chance to hear the word and accep by proxy, correct?? If someone was involved in murder, later on leaves all that behind and allows themselves to be prompted to recieve christ and be baptized as a mormon or a member of christ church....why can't they go to the temple, or submit the individuals info for work in the temple to restore that chance again?? A person can repent over and over but giving the chance back to them should give back and restore the way we are taught. I dont see why it can't. Its not a deathbed fix all to go out and murder but i would think in cases where someone comes penatant for past misdeeds it could be abn option.  Anyone that has been involved with gangs was asked to participate in such things to be there, you die or they die.  Its brutal and a lot of people are coming out of that world wanting to be restored also.  Its not as much of a choice as one would think....who wants to die or be on the run the rest of their life because they didnt kill? Just a thought, i think the Lord covers some of that through proxy temple work to restore those that were involved in such things because they were young, dumb and persuaded by the devil through the fake protection they think they are receiving. I just wish the church agreed with this thought.

[Edspringer]

On 18/06/2015 at 2:05 AM, Backroads said:

My sister has been reading a book about those who killed in Rwanda and are in prison. I happen to struggle with a major mental block: how can one consciously make the decision and follow through on the action to commit murder and then feel remorse? Now I try to understand the frenzy that occurred in Rwanda but in the end murderers still commit murder.

Even if true remorse for a murder is felt, is one simply fated for a lower kingdom? And I speak of murderers in general, not just Rwanda.

We have to consider a whole bunch of things, such as knowledge, state of mind, emotions, circumstances, and so on. I know that it might sound awkward for some, but not all who kill are murderers.

I was just reading the Book of Mormon today and came across to this scripture (1 Nephi 17:44):

“Wherefore, the Lord commanded my father that he should depart into the wilderness; and the Jews also sought to take away his life; yea, and ye also have sought to take away his life; wherefore, ye are murderers in your hearts and ye are like unto them”.

From this perspective, murderers can be such just because they think or intend to kill someone. Can’t they repent? Of course they can. Nephi was just trying to help his brothers to repent.

The fact is that we don't know much about how the Lord will proceed in Judgment Day. We do know, however, that He will be as Just as Merciful.

[FogCity]

On ‎6‎/‎18‎/‎2015 at 0:03 PM, Backroads said:

The latter group is the one I best think is for this discussion. In my mind, killing someone isn't always the same thing as murder.

here's where I think the English language restricts us because we associate varying levels of taking a life and define them under the term murder.  It's similar to the English term love.  Love and Murder are both too broad and difficult to define. 

Clearly, we view Nephi taking Laban's life differently than we do Cain taking Abel's.  We really could use a dozen or so varied definitions/degrees and types of the phrase taking a life.  Nobody would classify Dr. Kevorkian actions as similar to Charles Manson, and yet both are defined by the same term. 

I believe that someone who is of sound mind, that has been given a spiritual confirmation by the Holy Ghost/Spirit of Christ (that Thou Shall Not Kill) and that has an element of premeditation but kills anyway cannot be forgiven.  They won't be allowed any glory above the Telestial.  Anything other than that is guess work.

How's that for a sketchy all over the map type of reply  I think I'm even questioning myself now.

[Guest]

I know murderers go to Spirit Prison once they die, but who else goes to Spirit Prison is my question that I'll make a thread on. But the Anti-Nephi-Lehis were murderers and repented and are pure now.

[Blackmarch]

On 6/18/2015 at 11:05 PM, Backroads said:

My sister has been reading a book about those who killed in Rwanda and are in prison. I happen to struggle with a major mental block: how can one consciously make the decision and follow through on the action to commit murder and then feel remorse? Now I try to understand the frenzy that occurred in Rwanda but in the end murderers still commit murder.

Even if true remorse for a murder is felt, is one simply fated for a lower kingdom? And I speak of murderers in general, not just Rwanda.

depends if they knew the gospel or not.