can murderers hope for anything above the Telestial kingdom?


Backroads
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Reading through this thread, I saw the forgiveness of murders by the people of Ammon (aka anti-Nephi-Lehis) mentioned.  If you carefully study the middle of Alma, I don't see how you could conclude anything other than that they deliberately murdered people and later repented and that they will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom.  These accounts in the Book of Mormon are there to teach us of the infinite power of Christ's grace and atonement.  After they repented of their murders and other wickedness they became as righteous as any people that have ever lived.  They were absolutely amazing.

From Alma 27:

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27 And they were among the people of Nephi, and also numbered among the people who were of the church of God. And they were also distinguished for their zeal towards God, and also towards men; for they were perfectly honest and upright in all things; and they were firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end.

28 And they did look upon shedding the blood of their brethren with the greatest abhorrence; and they never could be prevailed upon to take up arms against their brethren; and they never did look upon death with any degree of terror, for their hope and views of Christ and the resurrection; therefore, death was swallowed up to them by the victory of Christ over it.

29 Therefore, they would suffer death in the most aggravating and distressing manner which could be inflicted by their brethren, before they would take the sword or cimeter to smite them.

30 And thus they were a zealous and beloved people, a highly favored people of the Lord.

 

Since their story is so important to our understanding of this topic I'll paste some verses here.  These are from Alma 24:

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And behold, I also thank my God, that by opening this correspondence we have been convinced of our sins, and of the many murders which we have committed.

10 And I also thank my God, yea, my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those our many sins and murders which we have committed, and taken away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of his Son.

11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain—

12 Now, my best beloved brethren, since God hath taken away our stains, and our swords have become bright, then let us stain our swords no more with the blood of our brethren.

13 Behold, I say unto you, Nay, let us retain our swords that they be not stained with the blood of our brethren; for perhaps, if we should stain our swords again they can no more be washed bright through the blood of the Son of our great God, which shall be shed for the atonement of our sins

 

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19 And thus we see that, when these Lamanites were brought to believe and to know the truth, they were firm, and would suffer even unto death rather than commit sin; and thus we see that they buried their weapons of peace, or they buried the weapons of war, for peace.

20 And it came to pass that their brethren, the Lamanites, made preparations for war, and came up to the land of Nephi for the purpose of destroying the king, and to place another in his stead, and also of destroying the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi out of the land.

21 Now when the people saw that they were coming against them they went out to meet them, and prostrated themselves before them to the earth, and began to call on the name of the Lord; and thus they were in this attitude when the Lamanites began to fall upon them, and began to slay them with the sword.

22 And thus without meeting any resistance, they did slay a thousand and five of them; and we know that they are blessed, for they have gone to dwell with their God.

23 Now when the Lamanites saw that their brethren would not flee from the sword, neither would they turn aside to the right hand or to the left, but that they would lie down and perish, and praised God even in the very act of perishing under the sword—

24 Now when the Lamanites saw this they did forbear from slaying them; and there were many whose hearts had swollen in them for those of their brethren who had fallen under the sword, for they repented of the things which they had done.

25 And it came to pass that they threw down their weapons of war, and they would not take them again, for they were stung for the murders which they had committed; and they came down even as their brethren, relying upon the mercies of those whose arms were lifted to slay them.

26 And it came to pass that the people of God were joined that day by more than the number who had been slain; and those who had been slain were righteous people, therefore we have no reason to doubt but what they were saved

 

These people who murdered were forgiven and we have no reason to doubt that they were saved.

 

This verse in Alma 27 also mentions their repentance for murders:

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23 And behold, we will set our armies between the land Jershon and the land Nephi, that we may protect our brethren in the land Jershon; and this we do for our brethren, on account of their fear to take up arms against their brethren lest they should commit sin; and this their great fear came because of their sore repentance which they had, on account of their many murders and their awful wickedness.

 

This is an interesting verse earlier in chapter 27 showing the depth of their regret:

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And the king said unto him: Yea, if the Lord saith unto us go, we will go down unto our brethren, and we will be their slaves until we repair unto them the many murders and sins which we have committed against them.

 

Elsewhere in the Book of Mormon, these verses talk about repenting of murders:

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Helaman 8:26 Yea, even at this time ye are ripening, because of your murders and your fornication and wickedness, for everlasting destruction; yea, and except ye repent it will come unto you soon.

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Ether 11:1 And there came also in the days of Com many prophets, and prophesied of the destruction of that great people except they should repent, and turn unto the Lord, and forsake their murders and wickedness.

 

Some people have trouble reconciling this with D&C 42:18

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18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

19 And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die

Note that this was spoken "unto the church".  There are various interpretations for what "the church" is in this case.

 

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After reading the many comments of this interesting thread the takeaway I'm getting from this is .. Can a murderer hope to ever live in the presence of The Father or even The Son?

The answer appears to be a definite MAYBE.. 

... and also a definite MAYBE NOT..

 

Why hasn't the Lord spelled this out for us more clearly?  Why hasn't it been revealed word-for-word and in no uncertain terms where we'll go if we decide we just have no choice but to decapitate our neighbor?  Nephi was commanded to.. Or so HE claims..  So he must be headed for Telestial glory, right?

I imagine some of you might be shaking your heads at this... "That's a big negatory, Squidster.."

And, I believe those of you saying that would be 100% correct!  Nephi was NOT a MURDERER.  He was commanded by the Lord to kill Laban.  So, maybe that makes THE LORD a murderer.  "Uh, no, Squid.  Once again a big fat negatory."  

Ok... So let me get this clear.  The Lord commands, "Thou shalt not kill." and even says in the D&C that if you do you won't receive forgiveness in this world OR the next.  It couldn't be any clearer than that, right?But then there are examples all over in the scriptures of people killing each other.. Even being commanded of the Lord to do so!  How can He send us these kind of mixed messages!?  What happened to "Yay yay" and "Nay nay"..?  Where is the justice OR mercy in that?

Ok.. So lest any of you are beginning to worry that I might be channeling Bill Maher.. Or Arthur Schopenhauer... Or <insert your favorite hipster atheist or anti theist here> .. Let me just say in no uncertain terms that neither God the Father nor God the Son have ANY need to excuse Themselves for anything They do... EVER.  Is there any one of us who won't be rewarded a hundred times over AND THEN SOME beyond what we ever deserved?  (Those of you who have any doubts about that statement will just have to wait and see if you don't just wind up willingly and gladly bending your knees with all the rest of us in acknowledging thanksgiving and praise to the Lord in the end...). :)

So what of the person who kills?  What are the consequences for such?  Should anything other than the fact that someone died at somebody's hand be a consideration?  Or.. If there are other considerations.. Is killing really such a big deal?  .. If God's just going to sort it all out in the end anyway.. ?

It seems to me that killing is a very serious thing.  Even killing vessels that don't contain spirit-children of our Father is SERIOUS.  Indiscriminate and wanton killing can canker the soul like just about nothing else can!  I am convinced that delighting in bloodshed of any sort is a debasing thing and has NEVER ever been condoned of the Lord.  Life, even mortal life, is precious beyond measure.  Can any of us create it?  Creation of life is one of the priesthood keys not currently held by any man on this earth.  It was exercised by Michael and Jehova to bring about this earth and all living things upon it.  Life of just about any sort that we know of is fairly easy to take... and impossible for us to restore without God's help..  But, for good or ill, death and killing are necessary to fulfill God's plan.  Opposition in all things, right?  So why doesn't God get more specific about "good" vs "bad" types of killing?  Because ultimately death is not OF God.. God is the bringer and sustainer of life, not death.  Death comes through the fall of MAN and the efforts of Lucifer to thwart His plan.  As far as I understand it, it only exists in fallen spheres of existence.  I really can't see how it has ANY place in any kingdoms of glory.  But it does happen here and now for a time... and it is necessary.

Death and Killing exist in fallen nature and the natural man in each one of us.  They point to the necessity of a Savior to rescue us from their inevitable grasp.  In that sense they can be to our benefit.  Even the necessary act of fallen nature to "kill and eat," that it might live another day, points as a type to the sacrifice of a Savior who offers Himself as a ransom that ALL might live and even have everlasting life if they will drink and eat of His gift of life.  In ancient times the true followers of the Lord were commanded to kill the best animals they owned (or could buy) as a part of sacred rituals to teach them the importance of looking toward the ultimate sacrifice which would be our Lord.  These things were crucial teaching tools, powerful symbols designed to point them in the right direction that they might know the mind and will of God.  They were not by chance nor as the result of the whims of man, but revealed by the Lord Himself who knew what was needed for spiritual progression to occur in His people.  These things were all carefully planned by our loving Father who doesn't condemn us to remain in our weak and fallen state but works with our natural man tendencies trying to help us to ultimately rise above them.. Not wallow and remain IN them.  

So... There was a time when killing was a part of temple teaching and covenant making.  That's probably as close as we can get to a "good" type of killing.. Commanded of God for a higher purpose.  

Anything else, much or most of what we see, either murder or something approaching it points us firmly in the opposite direction and delights the adversary because it gives him great power over us. This is serious enough that the Lord has warned us that it is like denying the Holy Ghost.  I believe there's a reason He doesn't draw a clear line for us in the sand and say, "If you do such and such, you've crossed that line and can never return to Me or my Father."  He wants us to fear going anywhere NEAR that line.  We have no business flirting with such evil.  I personally believe that those who do cross that line will KNOW it in no uncertain terms.. and worse, they have NO desire to ever return at that point but only to continue in that darkness and lure others by any means that they can to follow.  So it's really not about whether they CAN still be rescued, but that they REFUSE to be rescued... and ultimately want NOTHING that The Father or The Son have to offer.. and, terribly and (for most if us) incomprehensibly, they get what they choose...  nothingness.  They exercise their agency to this horrible end.

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Tonight I remembered someone I knew many years ago telling me about when he went on a mission.  He had been involved in inner city gangs and had to meet personally with the President of the Church before he could go.  He didn't say exactly what he had done, but I've always assumed it was murder.  He was able to go on a mission.  Interestingly, the prophet that he met with who granted him permission was Spencer W. Kimball.

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Another interesting thing that happened tonight was that while in the celestial room of the temple I killed a bug.  I saw a tiny dark speck on the light colored floor and when it moved I realized it was a bug.  I was just going to pick it up, but it got smashed.  Then I remembered that just hours before I read D&C 42:18 and "thou shalt not kill". :)

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On June 18, 2015 at 1:05 AM, Backroads said:

My sister has been reading a book about those who killed in Rwanda and are in prison. I happen to struggle with a major mental block: how can one consciously make the decision and follow through on the action to commit murder and then feel remorse? Now I try to understand the frenzy that occurred in Rwanda but in the end murderers still commit murder.

Even if true remorse for a murder is felt, is one simply fated for a lower kingdom? And I speak of murderers in general, not just Rwanda.

Difficult question to be sure, I know that those (as Christ stated) "offends one of these little ones, it would be better had he (or she) had never been born". Also when someone murders (especially with premeditation) they retard their life's journey and possible repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ's atonement. They commit the same sin as Cain, for which he received eternal damnation. Such person's are "turned over to reprobate minds", and unable to ever feel the enticing of the Holy Spirit. This might not be the case with all, especially where it concerns "crimes of passion". Either way, like all, we are in God's hands. 

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can a murderer ever hope for such? well the lamanites could.

Can someone who knew the gospel and broke covenants in murdering hope for more? No idea. I havent found anything that says King David was forgiven of such. I wouldn't bet on it, but if we are to be christlike then we are to help such an individual be able to come back to christ as much as is possible and hope for the best.

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