For LDS: Is a wealth a personal blessing for being righteousness? Is poverty an indication of personal wickedness?

[Guest]

 

 

I'm trying to figure out how Mormons view material things. So far, it's clear as mud.

 

 

I think there are as many answers to that as there are Mormons.

 

I don't see how that's your original question, though. You've pressed to know whether we think God rewards us with material things, and you don't seem to believe what any Mormon tells you.

[estradling75]

God is the author of all Good. But that does not mean that what we view as Good, is Good. Do you believe a criminal should thank God for their spoils?

 

I'm trying to figure out how Mormons view material things. So far, it's clear as mud.

 

 

Material things are just a tool...   Like any tool it can be used for good or bad. 

 

Some people might think their tools are "better" then other peoples tools, or that their collection of tools make them more special then others.   Some people might become obsessed with gaining more tools then everyone else.  

 

Clearly these are not good things to do... But they are not an inherent problem with the tool, but with the relationship individuals have with the tool.

 

So when you talk to a bunch of Mormons you are going to get their individual takes,  just like if you talked to a bunch of Catholics you would also get a bunch of individual takes.

 

As for a vow of poverty... you also don't see any Mormon's taking a vow of celibacy either...  Because for Mormons getting married and having/supporting kids and a family is the highest ideal.  Can't do that being celibate, and its very hard to do under a vow of poverty given how much you would force the support onto others beside yourself.

[blueskye]

I think there are as many answers to that as there are Mormons.

 

I don't see how that's your original question, though. You've pressed to know whether we think God rewards us with material things, and you don't seem to believe what any Mormon tells you.

That wasn't my question. The question was, is wealth a sign of righteousness and poverty a sign of not. Some said absolutely not, some said it could be. I don't think anyone was lying when they answered.

 

There is a tension in Christianity, to wealth and blessing. The conversation deepened, in my view, to how LDS view the relationship between obedience and abundance, and why. Maybe no one else has that view.

[Guest]

That wasn't my question. The question was, is wealth a sign of righteousness and poverty a sign of not. Some said absolutely not, some said it could be. I don't think anyone was lying when they answered.

And both answers are exactly the same - if you look at the reason why they said "absolutely not" as opposed to "it could be". It's like the elephant question - 2 blind men asked what they "see" - the guy touching the tail said it's a snake, the guy touching the leg said it's a tree. They have different answers - and if you look at the issue myopically you'll think one of them has to be wrong. You need to step back and look at it holistically and you will see that both answers are describing the same elephant. So, that's really the only thing you're missing - stepping out of the myopic view.

[estradling75]

That wasn't my question. The question was, is wealth a sign of righteousness and poverty a sign of not. Some said absolutely not, some said it could be. I don't think anyone was lying when they answered.

 

There is a tension in Christianity, to wealth and blessing. The conversation deepened, in my view, to how LDS view the relationship between obedience and abundance, and why. Maybe no one else has that view.

 

There is no contradiction if you understand the perspectives of those answering.  There are really two questions being answered. Lets break them out

 

Can you judge a persons righteousness based on their material wealth?  The answer is "Absolutely not"  That judgement is not ours to make and wealth/poverty is not reliable indicator even if we should/could make that call about someone else.

 

Can a righteous person be blessed by God with material wealth?  Yes it is possible.  Who are we to limit God in any way.  God will do whatever he feels is best.  But see the above question about trying to make a judgement based on it.

[mordorbund]

BlueSkye, where did you find this 20+ year old talk? I did a search on lds.org to see how often it was referenced (I imagine that would be a pretty good indicator of how foundational this sermon was for us) and only saw links to the talk proper. Compare that with a talk given just 6 years earlier which has really resonated and influenced the saints, and I think you'll see that you're focusing on something that most LDS don't focus on.

 

If you're really want to learn what the modern Church has to say about temporal wealth and the kingdom of God, you can familiarize yourself with the materials on this site (providentliving.og -> family finances). You can start with a resource in the right rail entitled "Temporal Wealth and the Kingdom of God".

[blueskye]

BlueSkye, where did you find this 20+ year old talk? I did a search on lds.org to see how often it was referenced (I imagine that would be a pretty good indicator of how foundational this sermon was for us) and only saw links to the talk proper. Compare that with a talk given just 6 years earlier which has really resonated and influenced the saints, and I think you'll see that you're focusing on something that most LDS don't focus on.

 

If you're really want to learn what the modern Church has to say about temporal wealth and the kingdom of God, you can familiarize yourself with the materials on this site (providentliving.og -> family finances). You can start with a resource in the right rail entitled "Temporal Wealth and the Kingdom of God".

I Googled, using the site:lds.org search operator.

 

Thanks, I like that article.

[mordorbund]

I Googled, using the site:lds.org search operator.

 

Thanks, I like that article.

 

What was your search term? "prosperity" doesn't turn up the talk on the first page.

[blueskye]

Material things are just a tool...   Like any tool it can be used for good or bad. 

 

Some people might think their tools are "better" then other peoples tools, or that their collection of tools make them more special then others.   Some people might become obsessed with gaining more tools then everyone else.  

 

Clearly these are not good things to do... But they are not an inherent problem with the tool, but with the relationship individuals have with the tool.

 

So when you talk to a bunch of Mormons you are going to get their individual takes,  just like if you talked to a bunch of Catholics you would also get a bunch of individual takes.

 

As for a vow of poverty... you also don't see any Mormon's taking a vow of celibacy either...  Because for Mormons getting married and having/supporting kids and a family is the highest ideal.  Can't do that being celibate, and its very hard to do under a vow of poverty given how much you would force the support onto others beside yourself.

Those Catholics who have taken a vow of poverty generally do so in a community, where all have taken the same vow. They may still work and earn wages and material things, but those things do not belong to the individual. They belong to the community, and the community largely gives everything away to the poor, sick, dying, orphans, old, etc. The keep what the community needs for the basics. Food, clothing, shelter, education, etc.

 

Catholics view serving God as being possible in many walks of life. Marriage and Priesthood are both vocations, equally serving God. We hold no view that one has to be married to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Edited July 9, 2015 by blueskye

[blueskye]

What was your search term? "prosperity" doesn't turn up the talk on the first page.

prosperity righteousness site:lds.org

[David13]

Hey, what happened to all those Catholic Church activities you posted about?

Doesn't the church offer you anything to do other than 1 hour for mass on Sunday?

Or is the church closed for the summer.

dc

[TMitch1987]

Hi blueskye.  I would have responded to your comment earlier, but I've been tied up with a few non-internet commitments :)

I agree.

I agree, and will add discernment is an important element.

However, the talk specifically ties obedience to material abundance. Obedience to direction?

In my experience, personal direction is sometimes very clear, and sometimes not, wherein, relying on what God has already revealed, is a good idea. Also, sometimes following one's faith leads away from material abundance, so what then? Must the "right" way always produce material rewards, otherwise, the "wrong" way has been taken.

 

I agree; discernment is very important.  The discerning of spirits is one of the gifts of the spirit Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians, and it is reiterated in our Doctrine and Covenants.

Yes, I believe it is obedience to direction that will allow us to be blessed with material abundance.  God has blessed us with modern prophets, so members of the Church have more of God's direction to fall back on.

A few quotes from Brigham Young, from here:

 

"Idleness and wastefulness are not according to the rules of heaven. Preserve all you can, that you may have abundance to bless your friends and your enemies."

"Use just enough of your earnings to make your bodies and your families happy and comfortable, and save the residue."

"My faith does not lead me to think the Lord will provide us with roast pigs, bread already buttered, etc.; he will give us the ability to raise the grain, to obtain the fruits of the earth, to make habitations, to procure a few boards to make a box, and when harvest comes, giving us the grain, it is for us to preserve it—to save the wheat until we have one, two, five, or seven years’ provisions on hand, until there is enough of the staff of life saved by the people to [provide] bread [for] themselves and those who will come here seeking for safety."

There are other, dishonest ways to obtain material abundance, and some shining souls start out in lowly circumstances.  The key to obtaining a material abundance (while still being in good standing with the Lord) is the work ethic He has counseled us to have. 

To answer your initial question, wealth is not a sign of righteousness, and poverty is not a sign of unrighteousness.  But being obedient to direction can lead us not only to spiritual blessings, but to material ones as well.  This is why we have missionaries going door to door even in the United States, trying to preach the Gospel to members of other faiths.  There is greater direction and more of God's word available than most people know. 

The referred to chapter linked above would be a good resource to look into as to how abundance is linked to obeying the God's direction (keeping in mind that we profess Brigham to be a prophet, and thus that he was speaking what God would have him speak, and not what he himself was thinking).

[JojoBag]

From this talk:

 

The Lord has demonstrated throughout the generations that when the inhabitants of the earth remember him and are obedient to his direction, he will bless them not only with spiritual blessings, but with material abundance as well.

 

Is wealth, therefore, a sign of personal righteousness. And conversely, is poverty a sign of personal wickedness?

 

I have not read all the replies but based just on this quote, I think you are missing one important line: "are obedient to his direction."  Wealth is actually a test of obedience.  Let me quote a few scriptures.

 

 

And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.

And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.

I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.

And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.

(Mosiah 4:21–25)

 

 

And they did impart of their substance, every man according to that which he had, to the poor, and the needy, and the sick, and the afflicted; and they did not wear costly apparel, yet they were neat and comely.

And thus they did establish the affairs of the church; and thus they began to have continual peace again, notwithstanding all their persecutions.

And now, because of the steadiness of the church they began to be exceedingly rich, having abundance of all things whatsoever they stood in need—an abundance of flocks and herds, and fatlings of every kind, and also abundance of grain, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things, and abundance of silk and fine-twined linen, and all manner of good homely cloth.

And thus, in their prosperous circumstances, they did not send away any who were naked, or that were hungry, or that were athirst, or that were sick, or that had not been nourished; and they did not set their hearts upon riches; therefore they were liberal to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, whether out of the church or in the church, having no respect to persons as to those who stood in need.

(Alma 1:27–30)

 

Wealth is a sign of obedience, but also a major test that, in my not-so-humble opinion, a large majority of LDS fail.  Why do I say that?  Because of a few factors:

 

1. Living beyond their means.

2. Extravagant houses.

3. Materially oriented.

4. Status conscious.

 

#1.  This one is easy.  Too much debt from credit cards.  If you can't pay cash for it, you don't need it.

#2.  If you live in a home that is way more than adequate for your needs, if it is fancy just to be fancy, or is in the right socially correct neighborhood, or simply unnecessary for your needs, you've got a problem.  (BTW, when I say "you," I am not singling you out; I am referring collectively to those who fit this description.)  Are you like one particular LDS politician I know of who has four big houses so he can travel around and live in style?

#3.  If you've bought the Mercedes or Audi when a Nissan or Toyota would have sufficed.  Lots of toys like boats, snowmobiles, jet skis, the lifted 4X4, etc.  Then there is the 84" TV, all the latest gadgets and electronics, etc.

#4.  Are you keeping up with the Jones?

 

In my ward is the son of an area Seventy.  He wants a purple Lamborghini.  Not a new one, just one a year or so old.  Nothing that would cost more than $300,000.  When he told me that I thought he was kidding at first, but then my jaw hit the ground when I realized he was serious.  I asked him why.  I said that there were so many things he could do like help someone in need.  He brushed that off as if it were of no importance.  He doesn't have his food storage, but he does have a Lamborghini.

 

I believe that if you have wealth and you do not do as the Savior told the young rich man, "Sell all you have, give it to the poor and come follow me," you will eliminate any chance of gaining the Celestial Kingdom.  I don't mean live in poverty, but if you live beyond what you need for your own personal needs (including retirement - rainy day - food storage, etc.), you fall under condemnation.  This is part of being obedient and many members fail in this.

 

You can always tell which wards in a  stake are affluent.  Take one look at the parking lot.  You will see the most expensive, status conscious cars: Mercedes, Lincoln, Cadillac, Audi, Lexus, etc.  In a stake conference, you will see the fine twined linen and costly apparel.   Personally, I prefer going to a ward in which the members are of a lower social class.  They are more humble and teachable.

Edited July 10, 2015 by JojoBag

[blueskye]

I have not read all the replies but based just on this quote, I think you are missing one important line: "are obedient to his direction."  Wealth is actually a test of obedience.  Let me quote a few scriptures.

 

 

 

Wealth is a sign of obedience, but also a major test that, in my not-so-humble opinion, a large majority of LDS fail.  Why do I say that?  Because of a few factors:

 

1. Living beyond their means.

2. Extravagant houses.

3. Materially oriented.

4. Status conscious.

 

#1.  This one is easy.  Too much debt from credit cards.  If you can't pay cash for it, you don't need it.

#2.  If you live in a home that is way more than adequate for your needs, if it is fancy just to be fancy, or is in the right socially correct neighborhood, or simply unnecessary for your needs, you've got a problem.  (BTW, when I say "you," I am not singling you out; I am referring collectively to those who fit this description.)  Are you like one particular LDS politician I know of who has four big houses so he can travel around and live in style?

#3.  If you've bought the Mercedes or Audi when a Nissan or Toyota would have sufficed.  Lots of toys like boats, snowmobiles, jet skis, the lifted 4X4, etc.  Then there is the 84" TV, all the latest gadgets and electronics, etc.

#4.  Are you keeping up with the Jones?

 

In my ward is the son of an area Seventy.  He wants a purple Lamborghini.  Not a new one, just one a year or so old.  Nothing that would cost more than $300,000.  When he told me that I thought he was kidding at first, but then my jaw hit the ground when I realized he was serious.  I asked him why.  I said that there were so many things he could do like help someone in need.  He brushed that off as if it were of no importance.  He doesn't have his food storage, but he does have a Lamborghini.

 

I believe that if you have wealth and you do not do as the Savior told the young rich man, "Sell all you have, give it to the poor and come follow me," you will eliminate any chance of gaining the Celestial Kingdom.  I don't mean live in poverty, but if you live beyond what you need for your own personal needs (including retirement - rainy day - food storage, etc.), you fall under condemnation.  This is part of being obedient and many members fail in this.

 

You can always tell which wards in a  stake are affluent.  Take one look at the parking lot.  You will see the most expensive, status conscious cars: Mercedes, Lincoln, Cadillac, Audi, Lexus, etc.  In a stake conference, you will see the fine twined linen and costly apparel.   Personally, I prefer going to a ward in which the members are of a lower social class.  They are more humble and teachable.

Steps 1-4 is how I was taught.

 

I live in one of the affluent stakes, I guess. Not sure where the stake house is, but the ward house on the corner seems to show that everyone is doing more than alright. Lots of luxury cars.

 

When we moved to this area, more than 15 years ago, we felt like the Clampetts. But, we're economically mixed. From bazillion dollar McMansions to apartments scattered here and there around the mansions. I like the economic mix. My parish church though, has homeless begging out front every Sunday, and one of those men joins us for Mass. Everyone knows him and he does alright out front collecting dollar bills.

 

Funny experience, most eveyone around here hires landscapers to mow their lawns. My husband mows ours, and one month he was busy on weekends and so the grass didn't get mowed. The neighbor across the street recommended to me, while I was getting our mail, his landscaper. I said Thanks! But no, we don't have a landscaper. The dear husband mowed the too-tall grass, with the mower stalling out and him cussing.

Edited July 10, 2015 by blueskye

[Just_A_Guy]

Heh.  My ward isn't so highfalutin.  I haven't mowed my front lawn in three weeks, because I've been working a lot of late evenings and we've been out of town the past few weekends, and plus I didn't think it looked that bad.

 

Came home at 8:30 PM yesterday to find some anonymous neighbor (presumably active LDS, as over 80% of our neighbors are) had mowed it.  I'm not sure whether to feel grateful or ashamed.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[blueskye]

Heh.  My ward isn't so highfalutin.  I haven't mowed my front lawn in three weeks, because I've been working a lot of late evenings and we've been out of town the past few weekends, and plus I didn't think it looked that bad.

 

Came home at 8:30 PM yesterday to find some anonymous neighbor (presumably active LDS, as over 80% of our neighbors are) had mowed it.  I'm not sure whether to feel grateful or ashamed.

Nice neighbor!

[David13]

Heh.  My ward isn't so highfalutin.  I haven't mowed my front lawn in three weeks, because I've been working a lot of late evenings and we've been out of town the past few weekends, and plus I didn't think it looked that bad.

 

Came home at 8:30 PM yesterday to find some anonymous neighbor (presumably active LDS, as over 80% of our neighbors are) had mowed it.  I'm not sure whether to feel grateful or ashamed.

I'd probably feel scared.  Around here, the city might do it for you, or the homeowners association, and then sedt you the bill.  For $800.00.

dc

[Connie]

Just another quote on the topic.

“Those who believe in what has been called the theology of prosperity are suffering from the deceitfulness of riches. The possession of wealth or significant income is not a mark of heavenly favor, and their absence is not evidence of heavenly disfavor. When Jesus told a faithful follower that he could inherit eternal life if he would only give all that he had to the poor (see Mark 10:17–24), He was not identifying an evil in the possession of riches but an evil in that follower’s attitude toward them. As we are all aware, Jesus praised the good Samaritan, who used the same coinage to serve his fellowman that Judas used to betray his Savior. The root of all evil is not money but the love of money (see 1 Timothy 6:10).

The Book of Mormon tells of a time when the Church of God “began to fail in its progress” (Alma 4:10) because “the people of the church began to … set their hearts upon riches and upon the vain things of the world” (Alma 4:8). Whoever has an abundance of material things is in jeopardy of being spiritually “sedated” by riches and other things of the world.”

 

--Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “The Parable of the Sower” from April 2015 General Conference