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blueskye

For LDS: Is a wealth a personal blessing for being righteousness? Is poverty an indication of personal wickedness?

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What do you think the correlation given in this quote, between obedience and material abundance, or lack thereof, means? If this is not a reliable correlation, why make the correlation at all?

What you're missing is that a person who is obedient and righteous is going to use those blessings of abundance as a resource to do more good. If, like St. John of Matha, the material blessings magnify John's mission, God will bless him as it is his will to build the kingdom.

The takeaway is - whatever it is you need in the building of Zion, God will provide it - spiritual AND material abundance.

To point out two prominent Catholic saints as examples of righteousness blessed with abundance -

Mother Theresa pledged a vow of poverty. She had no money and lived a simple life. But, she received material abundance that led her to provide aid to a great number of poor people. Bread to feed the poor didn't just magically come out of the ground. Material abundance powered Mother Theresa's work. So God's promise is fulfilled - those who are righteous and obedient will be blessed with abundance, both spiritual and material.

Thomas More was a lawyer and a chancellor to a King. As opposed to Mother Theresa, he lived the life of an aristocrat and all the material wealth that came with it. He lived a life of obedience and righteousness and used his wealth and position to influence a nation and it's King to live in obedience to the Church. The King decided to run counter to the church to divorce his wife in his desire to gain an heir. Thomas More opposed the King even at the guillotine. He left behind his wealth and power as he got beheaded to remain obedient to God but he had spiritual abundance from a life of righteousness that helped him stand strong in the side of faith in this trial.

With the differing backgrounds of Mother Theresa and Thomas More, the principle remains - God will qualify those he calls. And as one lives a righteous life, God will bless him with spiritual and material abundance that the righteous would have what he needs to help build the kingdom of God. This has nothing at all to do with Thomas More having money while Mother Theresa had none so Thomas must have been righteous, Theresa wicked. And if that's how you understood the talk, then plain and simply, you are wrong in your understanding.

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Such a comment made to Vort fairly fully destroys any semblance of credibility you you may have...never mind. You had no credibility. Still, what a ridiculous comment.

 

It goes both ways TFP...if what you say is true, then don't Vort's comments such as calling BlueSky a "sign seeker" destroy his credibility?  And your insult destroy yours? Seems like a double standard to me.

 

How about if we stop the personal attacks and stick to the topic at hand?  

Edited by LiterateParakeet

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There is an ignore feature. It is very useful. Click on your name on the top right hand of the page. From the drop down menu click, "My Settings" Then look on the menu on the left hand side of the page. Click on "Ignore Preferences". Then type in the name of the person(s) you want to ignore. :)

Thanks, I wasn't finding it in the mobile version of the website. I see it in the other version.

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Such a comment made to Vort fairly fully destroys any semblance of credibility you you may have...never mind. You had no credibility. Still, what a ridiculous comment.

Perhaps I should qualify that with, never has said anything useful to me. Been nothing but insults since my first post.

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I not sure why my name got pulled here...

I'm from the Philippines. I have a completely different understanding of what is poor vis a vis what is rich than a First World citizen.

I thought it went towards the conversation in the other thread.

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Questions for you... If people say that the Lord bless them with material abundance are they wrong? Lying? Deceived?

I think the Lord will bless me however he wants... I would not ever be so arrogant and to deny the possibly of the Lord blessing me materially if he so wishes... Also he has promised all his faithful with the fullness of the earth that sounds very materialistic to me. Of course I think the Lord also blesses me with Trials and challenges too.

Because of this understanding it seems to me that the correlation is simple. Obedience brings blessings. If the Lord so wills those blessing can be material in nature. But just because they can be... does not mean it is right to assume all blessing are material in nature... or that someone with a bunch of materiel stuff is being greatly blessed for obedience. (that in fact might be a Trial or a Challenge for us to deal with)

Some never know material excess. I don't think it is healthy to view material as an indication that one is doing God's will. I was an atheist for the majority of my adult life, and was better off in those years. Do I think God is punishing me for not being an atheist? No. Do I think what I do have, is what God wills. Certainly, and I am thankful, but I don't view that I am being rewarded.

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With reading not quite one page...

I don't see "abundance" and "wealth" necessarily as extreme amounts.

Do I think the Lord can bless us with temporal things? I do. But to suggest righteous=great wealth is a bit much.

My uncle is a multimillionaire. He is an incredibly righteous and faithful man. Perhaps the Lord has blessed him with his wealth to some extent,but I also think my uncle's love of hard work and excellent people skills, not to mention him joining an MLM at the right time, also helped.

In other words, I don't think it's common for God to make people millionaires just for being righteous.

Life plays into this. Those who seek high-paying careers are likely to be more wealthy than those who pick other careers.

I think the mechanic who is faithful and is prudent with his finances can hope to live comfortably. And perhaps the Lord will bless him with temporal things. But he may never have great material wealth.

Plus, I'm sure we all know very righteous people struggling financially.

Now I do think we can hope for and even ask for material blessings, but I don't think great wealth is an indicator of righteousness.

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Posted · Hidden by Just_A_Guy, June 24, 2015 - Duplicate
Hidden by Just_A_Guy, June 24, 2015 - Duplicate

With reading not quite one page...

I don't see "abundance" and "wealth" necessarily as extreme amounts.

Do I think the Lord can bless us with temporal things? I do. But to suggest righteous=great wealth is a bit much.

My uncle is a multimillionaire. He is an incredibly righteous and faithful man. Perhaps the Lord has blessed him with his wealth to some extent,but I also think my uncle's love of hard work and excellent people skills, not to mention him joining an MLM at the right time, also helped.

In other words, I don't think it's common for God to make people millionaires just for being righteous.

Life plays into this. Those who seek high-paying careers are likely to be more wealthy than those who pick other careers.

I think the mechanic who is faithful and is prudent with his finances can hope to live comfortably. And perhaps the Lord will bless him with temporal things. But he may never have great material wealth.

Plus, I'm sure we all know very righteous people struggling financially.

Now I do think we can hope for and even ask for material blessings, but I don't think great wealth is an indicator of righteousness.

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what you dont understand is that living in good standings as an LDS member require sacrifices and strict obedience. So much so that many avenues to obtaining lucrative careers and material wealth is out of our reach. For example my household income is half of what it could potentially be because my wife decided to stay at home and raise our kids for the past 12 years.

But the lord has promised us that if we obey him he will prosper us in HIS WAY with material wealth AND eternal blessings.

01. The two bedroom apartment (with no yard) that I live in is waaay too small for my family of 5 but I have no debt, a comfortable savings, my kids love spending time with me, this two bedroom apt is in a safe neighborhood and is what I consider my "riches of the earth" I am truly a blessed man.

I am not offended by the way you view the LDS church and its teachings because you dont understand it and to your defense there are many LDS faithful that dont understand fully some/most of our teachings and that is why we continually strive to learn and understand the gospel. Its a lifetime journey.

A drug dealer is obedient to following the protocol of selling the drugs.

A Lawyer had to be obedient through out his schooling to obtain a law degree.

A business man had to be obedient to laws and regulations to run his business.

Even winning slots at vegas require enough obedience to put the coin in the correct slot.

--------------

To non-LDS folks material abundance has no relation to being obedient to God. I think we can all agree on that.

LDS members like myself believe that God is the source of all material and eternal blessings in our lives. The fact that I was able to afford a soda and sushi for lunch this afternoon humbled me enough to thank God for that abundance and I would like to believe that the Lord appreciates my efforts of obedience to pray and recognize him in following his commandments daily.

God wants us to recognize him in all things, thats all, I choose to, you choose not to.

Your perspective and understanding is different. We simply need to agree to disagree.

My soda and sushi lunch is an abundance of wealth and I attribute this abundance to my gospel obedience. Its false to you but true to me.

It is the same for Catholics, if we are following church teachings.

This conversation started in another thread, on the topic of material excess, like huge homes and luxury vehicles. Is a wealthy LDS member more blessed than you or I?

I do admire the LDS commitment to family and to what you believe is God's will. :)

Edited by blueskye

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What you're missing is that a person who is obedient and righteous is going to use those blessings of abundance as a resource to do more good. If, like St. John of Matha, the material blessings magnify John's mission, God will bless him as it is his will to build the kingdom.

The takeaway is - whatever it is you need in the building of Zion, God will provide it - spiritual AND material abundance.

To point out two prominent Catholic saints as examples of righteousness blessed with abundance -

Mother Theresa pledged a vow of poverty. She had no money and lived a simple life. But, she received material abundance that led her to provide aid to a great number of poor people. Bread to feed the poor didn't just magically come out of the ground. Material abundance powered Mother Theresa's work. So God's promise is fulfilled - those who are righteous and obedient will be blessed with abundance, both spiritual and material.

Thomas More was a lawyer and a chancellor to a King. As opposed to Mother Theresa, he lived the life of an aristocrat and all the material wealth that came with it. He lived a life of obedience and righteousness and used his wealth and position to influence a nation and it's King to live in obedience to the Church. The King decided to run counter to the church to divorce his wife in his desire to gain an heir. Thomas More opposed the King even at the guillotine. He left behind his wealth and power as he got beheaded to remain obedient to God but he had spiritual abundance from a life of righteousness that helped him stand strong in the side of faith in this trial.

With the differing backgrounds of Mother Theresa and Thomas More, the principle remains - God will qualify those he calls. And as one lives a righteous life, God will bless him with spiritual and material abundance that the righteous would have what he needs to help build the kingdom of God. This has nothing at all to do with Thomas More having money while Mother Theresa had none so Thomas must have been righteous, Theresa wicked. And if that's how you understood the talk, then plain and simply, you are wrong in your understanding.

Thanks, while we disagree, it seems all the time. I do value your perspective.

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With reading not quite one page...

I don't see "abundance" and "wealth" necessarily as extreme amounts.

Do I think the Lord can bless us with temporal things? I do. But to suggest righteous=great wealth is a bit much.

My uncle is a multimillionaire. He is an incredibly righteous and faithful man. Perhaps the Lord has blessed him with his wealth to some extent,but I also think my uncle's love of hard work and excellent people skills, not to mention him joining an MLM at the right time, also helped.

In other words, I don't think it's common for God to make people millionaires just for being righteous.

Life plays into this. Those who seek high-paying careers are likely to be more wealthy than those who pick other careers.

I think the mechanic who is faithful and is prudent with his finances can hope to live comfortably. And perhaps the Lord will bless him with temporal things. But he may never have great material wealth.

Plus, I'm sure we all know very righteous people struggling financially.

Now I do think we can hope for and even ask for material blessings, but I don't think great wealth is an indicator of righteousness.

There are many things that can determine material success. Place of birth and culture has more of an impact than anything I can think of. Many countries, the culture and laws are stacked against groups of people. Such as being female, the wrong caste or handicapped.

In my own life, the male siblings in my family certainly had a leg up, that was not offered to me. Entirely because I'm not male.mthat is not a complaint, just how it was, and was based on my parent's culture.

Edited by blueskye

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There are many things that can determine material success. Place of birth and culture has more of an impact than anything I can think of. Many countries, the culture and laws are stacked against groups of people. Such as being female, the wrong caste or handicapped.

In my own life, the male siblings in my family certainly had a leg up, that was not offered to me. Entirely because I'm not male.mthat is not a complaint, just how it was, and was based on my parent's culture.

Yup. Many factors play into wealth, and we won't even get into the cultural perspective of wealth.

Again, I do think God can bless us materially. But there's so much else in the equation (including the difference between can and will) to say wealth means righteousness.

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LOL. That is a funny analogy.

But! Where did your kid get the ton of Jolly Ranchers?

 

Where, indeed?  :D

 

 

Certainly, Jesus is prefigured in the Old, but the authors were not aware of their Salvation in Jesus Christ. He was hidden.

Romans 16

25 Now to him who can strengthen you, according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret for long ages

26 but now manifested through the prophetic writings and, according to the command of the eternal God, made known to all nations to bring about the obedience of faith,

27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ be glory forever and ever. Amen.

 

I think there are at least two Biblical passages suggesting that "secret" here is a relative, not an absolute, term (and in relative terms the word "secret" certainly fits, for reasons outlined above--this was all "new" to the Jews living in Roman times).

 

The first passage is Amos 3:7--"Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."  So while something may be "secret" from the broader world, it seems that prophets can still be privy to those secrets.

 

Second, and perhaps a little more on-point:  In John 8:56 (which probably hadn't yet been written when Paul authored his epistle to the Romans), the beloved apostle recalls Jesus telling the Pharisees that "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."  So, while Paul may--for reasons known only to him--have indicated to the contrary; Jesus Himself seems quite clear that Abraham foresaw exactly who and what Jesus would be.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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I haven't avoided anything but your insults, and those I think can stand there with you.

If there were an ignore feature on this forum, you'd be my first guest to that list. You really say nothing useful. Ever.

 

Translation:  You don't agree with my personal interpretation of all things as I imagine them in my head, so I am going to have a hissy fit and hurl insults rather than be an adult and engage in meaningful discussion, 'cuz that ain't what I'm here for.

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Some never know material excess. I don't think it is healthy to view material as an indication that one is doing God's will. I was an atheist for the majority of my adult life, and was better off in those years. Do I think God is punishing me for not being an atheist? No. Do I think what I do have, is what God wills. Certainly, and I am thankful, but I don't view that I am being rewarded.

 

 

You did not answer my questions...   And whom had ever said "excess" was a blessing?  The talk did not.  The only person I see claiming "excess" is a blessing is you when you put words in our (collective) mouths.

 

The talk pointed out obedience brings forth blessings.  Do you or do you not have a problem with that?

 

Assuming you agree with the above then the next question is... Is is possible for some blessings from God can be material in nature?

 

If you agree with both statements then you agree with the talk and teachings as given (rather then your distorted opinion on what you think the talk and church teaches)

 

If you disagree with the last then in your opinion whom should people be thanking went they get a material blessing?  What is its source if not God?

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What am I claiming? 

 

 

Your assertion is that the LDS people believe that wealth is a reward for righteousness. I married a man that, while certainly not perfect, is as straight an arrow as you could meet when it comes to his faith. If riches were a reward for religious fidelity, he ought to be one of the richest men alive. But I'll tell you what, we are far from rich. In fact, the last few years have been an enormous struggle financially.

 

However, when we pay our tithing and live as faithfully as we can, we have our daily bread. That is what I expect and have faith in; that as I keep the covenant to live His law, He will keep His promise to feed and clothe and care for my family, as He does the lilies of the field and the sparrows in the sky. So far, he's made good, even when it doesn't make sense that we're making ends meet. My husband is faithful to his covenants, and God is faithful to His promises.

 

Anything beyond our daily bread (and electricity and water and clothing and etc.) is certainly a blessing, but not a reward, as such. I'd say it's more a responsibility and a stewardship to use responsibly, not only for our benefit, but to bless the lives of others. We've certainly been blessed by those who have more than their "daily bread" (not an easy pill to swallow, but definitely humbling). 

 

So if LDS people REALLY believed that faithfulness = riches, I'd say my good, faithful husband, who is trying his level best to take care of his family and doing a darn good job living the Gospel, is totally getting the shaft. Thus would come my faith crisis. But since that is NOT what LDS people believe, I'm ok. 

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From this talk:

 

 

Is wealth, therefore, a sign of personal righteousness. And conversely, is poverty a sign of personal wickedness?

 

I haven't read the entire thread but the term abundance to me is subjective.  Nor does the quote say anything about wealth.  It says material abundance.  Does that mean wealth or does it mean that there will, for example, always be extra food in the cupboard?  Does it mean that there will always be enough to cover living expenses and a bit left over at the end of each payday?   It could mean a lot of things.  But I'm not sure it necessarily means wealth.

 

I've known a lot of extremely spiritual people throughout my life but they haven't been wealthy. But they never seemed to lack for the basic necessities of life either.

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It goes both ways TFP...if what you say is true, then don't Vort's comments such as calling BlueSky a "sign seeker" destroy his credibility?  And your insult destroy yours? Seems like a double standard to me.

 

How about if we stop the personal attacks and stick to the topic at hand?  

 

You miss the point entirely. His credibility is not destroyed by the insult. His credibility is detroyed by saying nothing that Vort ever says is useful, which anyone knows is a ridiculous statement, as Vort tends to make quite useful comments, whether one agrees with him or not. There is no double standard.

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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You miss the point entirely. His credibility is not destroyed by the insult. His credibility is detroyed by saying nothing that Vort ever says is useful, which anyone knows is a ridiculous statement, as Vort tends to make quite useful comments, whether one agrees with him or not. There is no double standard.

 

I agree that I missed your point.  That idea occurred to me later.  I'm very tired today.  

 

Surely though you understood his point was pertaining to this discussion, and my point that we should stick to arguing topics not resort to personal attacks.

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Thanks, while we disagree, it seems all the time. I do value your perspective.

What is it about my post that you disagreed with?

It is a simple explanation of an LDS talk as it applies to a widely accepted Catholic tradition showing that the LDS and Catholic teaching on material blessings are the same.

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I know what I believe.

Do you believe:

a) You follow God's commands, you follow the will of God, you will prosper. But don't expect primarily treasure on earth, expect treasure in heaven.

or

b) God wants to increase you financially, by giving you promotions, fresh ideas and creativity.

 

I believe that if I follow God's commandments then I will maximize my individual potential to live a happy and prosperous life. This is not merely theoretical for me. I have actual experience in this area.

 

I obey God and strive to keep His commandments because I lived in hell and was living in hell; I was in a dark abyss and was miserable; I begged God for mercy and in His kindness and grace He poured out mercy upon me; He saved me from hell and saved my life! I have great gratitude and love for the Lord because of what He has done for me!

 

So, I am motivated by my love for Jesus Christ and because of His atonement. At this point in my life as I strive to keep God's commandments sincerely and with real intent, my life and the life of my family improves. Some of the improvements are material but the ones that matter are the spiritual improvements. However, I don't expect anything from God because of my righteous acts.

 

-Finrock

Edited by Finrock

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Skipped the last 4 pages, just want to respond to the OP.

 

"Is wealth, therefore, a sign of personal righteousness? And conversely, is poverty a sign of personal wickedness?"

NO

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-parable-of-the-sower?lang=eng

"Those who believe in what has been called the theology of prosperity are suffering from the deceitfulness of riches."

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/are-we-not-all-beggars?lang=eng

"From the beginning of His ministry, Jesus loved the impoverished and the disadvantaged in an extraordinary way. He was born into the home of two of them and grew up among many more of them. We don’t know all the details of His temporal life, but He once said, “Foxes have holes, and … birds … have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Apparently the Creator of heaven and earth “and all things that in them are” was, at least in His adult life, homeless."

 

It doesn't get much more clear than that.

To insinuate that wealth, or the lack thereof, is a sign of righteousness, or the lack thereof, is to preach the most wicked and pernicious evil - the love of money.

 

In general, wealth is an indicator of a person's love of money, so poverty could possibly be seen as an indicator of a person's righteousness. However, God does bless some people with wealth - precisely because they do not seek wealth, but they seek to bless the lives of others. So on the level, don't judge a person by the size of their wallet. If you absolutely must judge a person, judge them by the way they use their wealth, not by how much of it they have. The righteous will do as Jesus commanded:

 

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/luke/18.22?lang=eng#21

"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."

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..................wealth and poverty..................and righteousness.............

 

Wealth is given for us to use funds in helping others [Jacob 2:10 "And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches if ye seek them and ye will seek them for the intent to do good__to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted"]

 

That is clearly stated.........to help others both temporally and spiritually...........

 

 

I feel 'wealthy' because I seek a personal relationship with God above and take time daily to study/pray, because we seek to have a gospel home, enough money to have gas to go to the temple, because we have enough for our needs and some wants, enough to pay generous fast offering as prophet has asked, enough to have our food storage/use it/rotate it (which has added to our health because of the fiber content of grains, legumes, veg, fruits), enough to help family when needed and sometimes help others, enough to live in a clean home that isn't extravagant but meets our needs, enough to have a car to drive and car insurance (2005 model with low miles on it). It took a few years for us to learn to use money wisely, but that mostly came about because we were quite poor for a long time and learned how to stretch every penny.

Edited by jana7

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Your assertion is that the LDS people believe that wealth is a reward for righteousness. I married a man that, while certainly not perfect, is as straight an arrow as you could meet when it comes to his faith. If riches were a reward for religious fidelity, he ought to be one of the richest men alive. But I'll tell you what, we are far from rich. In fact, the last few years have been an enormous struggle financially.

 

However, when we pay our tithing and live as faithfully as we can, we have our daily bread. That is what I expect and have faith in; that as I keep the covenant to live His law, He will keep His promise to feed and clothe and care for my family, as He does the lilies of the field and the sparrows in the sky. So far, he's made good, even when it doesn't make sense that we're making ends meet. My husband is faithful to his covenants, and God is faithful to His promises.

 

Anything beyond our daily bread (and electricity and water and clothing and etc.) is certainly a blessing, but not a reward, as such. I'd say it's more a responsibility and a stewardship to use responsibly, not only for our benefit, but to bless the lives of others. We've certainly been blessed by those who have more than their "daily bread" (not an easy pill to swallow, but definitely humbling). 

 

So if LDS people REALLY believed that faithfulness = riches, I'd say my good, faithful husband, who is trying his level best to take care of his family and doing a darn good job living the Gospel, is totally getting the shaft. Thus would come my faith crisis. But since that is NOT what LDS people believe, I'm ok. 

It is my understanding. I started this thread to see what LDS think.

 

Where the rubber meets the road, in your own lives, your views and shared experiences change my understanding. I don't see how you reconcile personal experience, to believing whole civilization rise and fall in prosperity, based on obedience. But, it may just come down to defining what prosperity means.

 

Thanks for your post.

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