Small Business and the LDS Community

[char713]

A few years ago my husband ran a small wedding photography and cinematography business that he had started in Colorado and kept up once we moved here to Utah. The business was no where near as profitable as we would have liked, but once we moved to Utah it really tanked. All anyone we met wanted to pay for their wedding photography was zero plus what they saw as the perk of getting to eat with the rest of the guests at the wedding. The few paying clients that he worked with tried to "nickel and dime" him into giving them additional services for nothing. It was an exhausting two years and we are so glad we walked away from the business before we got into debt over it. But now, more than three years later, we are still being asked by everyone - ward members, neighbors, co-workers, and even members of our extended families - for free photography or cinematography services. We haven't said yes to a single request, but they still keep asking and referring my husband's name to their friends. We have become accustomed to using the phrase "if you give a mouse a cookie..." and greatly regret ever having done any jobs like this for free. 

 

We have friends who are still struggling with their own small businesses here in Utah and who we have griped about this with in the past. And we have friends who live elsewhere in the country whose businesses are doing much better by comparison, even a couple of ventures which have only been around for quite a short time that are still doing better. What is it about Utah or LDS culture that makes people think they are so entitled to get something for nothing? I understand that we are a thrifty people, but do we not also value industriousness? 

 

On this same note, I have been working primarily as a nanny for the past three years. I have had gainful employment with some wonderful families, but have never found a good position with an LDS family although I have contacted and been interviewed by several. These families too, also expected a great deal (not only nannying services but also a great deal of housekeeping, cooking, errands, etc.) but were only interested in paying minimum wage (or less in some cases!) I would love to work for an LDS family if only to avoid the awkwardness of when a parent comes home drunk. Or when I would like to sing primary songs with the children, just out of my own habit, but the parents object to any religious materials being part of their child's life. Or for many other reasons besides. But they won't pay a reasonable wage or set realistic expectations. 

 

Any theories as to why this is? Or am I just imagining things, or blowing them out of proportion, and you have had very different experience?

[pam]

I think people forget how to separate church relationships with business dealings and relationships.  We are taught that we need to provide service so often that I think people think that these things should be done as service.

 

But there is a difference between service and also needing to make a living providing for your family.  I get frustrated when I hear of people calling a ward member to do something simply because that is their profession and thinking that it should be done for free because they are in the same ward.

[Palerider]

I have seen those who do construction and remodeling get asked often about Free services.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I agree with Pam.  I don't think this attitude is right, but I do think that is where it comes from.  I think we need to remember the Savior's words: The laborer is worthy of his hire. D&C 84:69

[Mahone]

I get this a lot as well. It didn't affect me financially as I'm not self employed, but it did end up eating up a lot of my evenings and weekends. Eventually I started saying no; the exception being when the bishop asked on someone's behalf, and the requests stopped coming in. Now that I go to a new ward, I just don't tell people I work in IT and they don't ask me to fix their computers.

That said, I can understand why people attempt to find a friend or associate to look at their computer first. I don't often have need to enter stores like best buy, but when I noticed in passing how much they charged for really basic, simple stuff like malware removal and/or a cleanup, I did a double take. It's the digital equivalent to replacing a washer in a leaking faucet in terms of simplicity (most of the time. It can be more difficult occasionally) and yet they are charging hundreds of $$ for it.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Mahone

[David13]

I have noticed the same thing but certainly not only with LDS people.  But with everyone.  All people.

And as to nanny, no one thinks they should pay much of anything for that, yet are not their children the most valuable possession they have?  Yet that is where they want to be the cheapest.

dc

[Backroads]

I've actually seen this attitude defended by the notion of some big ol' skip and a jump to full-scale law of consecration. "Well, so-n-so is a member of the Church and therefore should be donating his talents! I'd do the same thing!" (not my words, just paraphrase of what I've heard. And in many cases I'm sure those who speak such really believe they would give their services for free... only to find it's not so much fun when the favor is called up.

 

Now, I think highly of those who do offer their skill for free now and then to someone who truly needs it (my mom teaches music and always has one family or another on hard times she teaches for free) and we had a few examples in this thread of such. But yes, the laborer is worthy of his hire and when we expect everything for free just because so-n-so is a fellow Mormon is really just entitlement.

[Bini]

I think it's church culture, in general, not just within Mormonism but since we're talking about Utah specifically...

We live in Utah. My husband was an electrical contractor, decent sized, his company was hired to do many of the new schools built here in SLC. He is LDS and made the mistake of offering free services to our bishop, who lived across the street from us, to redo his whole house with a bunch of upgrades and additions. Why it ended up in a mistake was that his name got passed through the ward as offering free services. He lost a lot of money on some pretty big jobs because he's a selfless man and feels obligated to charity when approached. It got real bad to a point where, as his wife, I said we can't be doing these freebies. It eventually tappered off once we relocated AND he sold his company.

I think it's okay to say, "No."

[Jane_Doe]

I think it's okay to say, "No."

 

Totally. 

 

If some one calls you up asking for business services, tell them the price (cause it ain't free).

[The Folk Prophet]

Utah's cheap. I don't think it's an LDS thing though. Just a Utah thing. Non-LDS Utahn's are just as cheap.

[char713]

I get this a lot as well. It didn't affect me financially as I'm not self employed, but it did end up eating up a lot of my evenings and weekends. Eventually I started saying no; the exception being when the bishop asked on someone's behalf, and the requests stopped coming in. Now that I go to a new ward, I just don't tell people I work in IT and they don't ask me to fix their computers.

That said, I can understand why people attempt to find a friend or associate to look at their computer first. I don't often have need to enter stores like best buy, but when I noticed in passing how much they charged for really basic, simple stuff like malware removal and/or a cleanup, I did a double take. It's the digital equivalent to replacing a washer in a leaking faucet in terms of simplicity (most of the time. It can be more difficult occasionally) and yet they are charging hundreds of $$ for it.

 

My husband works for a big tech company and he signed something at the beginning saying he would never give service advice or help to anyone outside of work. It doesn't stop everyone from asking, but its nice to have a real, concrete reason to refuse. The most annoying thing about it is that people at church rarely strike up conversations with us for any other reason. And it's laughable how thinly-veiled they are about wanting help with their phones or other devices. They may start off asking about something ridiculous like where my husband got his tie, but its clear that all we are good for to many of our fellow members is free child care and free tech support. 

 

 

I have noticed the same thing but certainly not only with LDS people.  But with everyone.  All people.

And as to nanny, no one thinks they should pay much of anything for that, yet are not their children the most valuable possession they have?  Yet that is where they want to be the cheapest.

dc

 No kidding. I could go on for days talking about this one point. People's priorities are really mixed up. I would rather every mother stayed home with her young children, I'd be happy to be out of a job for this reason, but if they aren't willing to make that sacrifice they ought to recognize what their child care providers are deserving of. 

[char713]

Utah's cheap. I don't think it's an LDS thing though. Just a Utah thing. Non-LDS Utahn's are just as cheap.

Any ideas as to why that is though? I'm guessing it has mostly to do with the state laws, and the types of businesses that have been established here. Many of which cater to the mormon mentality of thrifty-ness and borderline Law of Consecration expectations, as Backroads said. And while non members might not be naturally cheap people, they are free and willing to take advantage of it same as anyone else when it benefits them. 

[Just_A_Guy]

"Well, so-n-so is a member of the Church and therefore should be donating his talents! I'd do the same thing!"

 

Coincidentally (or not), in my experience the people who use this line most often tend to have virtually no marketable skills themselves and can sleep quite soundly in the assurance that they will never be expected to contribute anything of pecuniary value to the Kingdom themselves--or will have a very good excuse to decline, if asked.

 

Generally speaking:  I think Mormonism has a very strong self-sufficiency ethos.  We really do quite a lot of lot of stuff for ourselves, and are pretty well convinced we could learn the rest--if only we had the time.  In so doing, we learn that a lot of service providers actually do puff up the price of their services quite a bit (Mahone's example being a case in point--changing out a washer may itself be a fifty-cent job; but I'll be hard-pressed to find a plumber to come out to my house and do the work for less than fifty bucks).

 

Thus, when Brother Paul hires someone to watch his kids, or take photos, or fix his computer, or tune up his car, or build an addition onto his house, or file his bankruptcy or show up in court with him and talk to a judge for fifteen minutes--in Brother Paul's mind he's not actually paying for specialized knowledge.  In his mind, he's just paying for labor--grunt work--and thus he will (quite rationally) pay the lowest rate he thinks his local market will bear. 

 

(I'm not endorsing the mentality; I'm just offering a possible explanation for it.)

 

Random anecdote to add to the mix:  My first criminal defense case was actually a case for an "eccentric" lady in my ward who had rear-ended someone at a stoplight and got cited for following someone too close.  I went to court with her three times and did a half-day trial on the issue, resulting in her acquittal--easily $2K worth of legal work, done entirely for free.  In gratitude, she complained to our bishop that I hadn't also sued her insurance company for (as she saw it) unjustifiably raising her rates after the accident.

 

Some people . . .

Edited July 13, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[lonetree]

I really hate the 'something for nothing' mentality. My dad, now semi-retired, has a small automotive repair business and had to deal with it for decades.

     Not to take the topic too far from its original focus, but it may be exacerbated these days by what I call "the dollar store/internet" factor. I can get it free from the internet, or next to nothing from the local dollar store so why should I have to pay for it? Perhaps the 'goods' thinking has made a leap in some people's minds to 'services' as well.

Incidentally, here in Southern Ontario, Canada, Dollar Stores are a huge business. Is it the same in the US?

Edited July 13, 2015 by lonetree

[Blackmarch]

Well there is a lot of "I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine" that happens and i think people automatically extend it beyond what might be proper without much thought... As well as creates an atmosphere of expectancy.

Probably a thing that ties into that is a lot of us are taught to help and serve others as we grew up.

And ya iagree that internetism has probably fueled it even more. Dollar stores were a rage. But i think the economy is killing them.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Blackmarch

[askandanswer]

This post has reminded me of the words of a popular Primary song that I'm sure many of the life long members here would have sung and loved as children

 

1. 1. "Give," said the little stream,
   "Give, oh! give, give, oh! give."
   "Give," said the little stream,
   As it hurried down the hill;
   "I'm small, I know, but wherever I go
   The fields grow greener still."
2. Singing, singing all the day,
   "Give away, oh! give away."
   Singing, singing all the day,
   "Give, oh! give away."
3. 2. "Give," said the little rain,
   "Give, oh! give, give, oh! give."
   "Give," said the little rain,
   As it fell upon the flow'rs;
   "I'll raise their drooping heads again,"
   As it fell upon the flow'rs.
4. 3. Give, then, as Jesus gives,
   Give, oh! give, give, oh! give.
   Give, then, as Jesus gives;
   There is something all can give.
   Do as the streams and blossoms do:
   For God and others live.

[priesthoodpower]

I have many family that own small businesses. I have seen it all.

It is not only in LDS, it is every where that people have relationships.

Everyone wants things cheap or free, everyone wants to know someone who knows someone.

 

I saw a guy in the mall the other day wearing a shirt that said "NO! I will not fix your computer!"

[lonetree]

Well there is a lot of "I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine" that happens and i think people automatically extend it beyond what might be proper without much thought... As well as creates an atmosphere of expectancy.

Probably a thing that ties into that is a lot of us are taught to help and serve others as we grew up.

And ya iagree that internetism has probably fueled it even more. Dollar stores were a rage. But i think the economy is killing them.

Here, the economy or something anyway is killing more traditional stores. Sears is in bad bad shape. It would've been nice to have Target here, and thus another choice for consumers, but that didn't happen. 

Edited July 14, 2015 by lonetree

[Backroads]

This post has reminded me of the words of a popular Primary song that I'm sure many of the life long members here would have sung and loved as children

• 1. "Give," said the little stream,

  "Give, oh! give, give, oh! give."

  "Give," said the little stream,

  As it hurried down the hill;

  "I'm small, I know, but wherever I go

  The fields grow greener still."

• Singing, singing all the day,

  "Give away, oh! give away."

  Singing, singing all the day,

  "Give, oh! give away."

• 2. "Give," said the little rain,

  "Give, oh! give, give, oh! give."

  "Give," said the little rain,

  As it fell upon the flow'rs;

  "I'll raise their drooping heads again,"

  As it fell upon the flow'rs.

• 3. Give, then, as Jesus gives,

  Give, oh! give, give, oh! give.

  Give, then, as Jesus gives;

  There is something all can give.

  Do as the streams and blossoms do:

  For God and others live.

I don't think the song was about enabling others or sacrifice your livelihood.

[estradling75]

I don't think the song was about enabling others or sacrifice your livelihood.

 

That poises a dilemma...  Christ is our example in all things...  He sacrifices not only his livelihood but his life... knowing that many of us would uses it poorly and thus "enablingly"  

 

It comes back to the principles of Zion and having all thing in common...  How do we do so when there are those willing to take advantage of such?...  We have not gotten that right since the New Testament times (and I am not sure how long it lasted then)

[Backroads]

That poises a dilemma... Christ is our example in all things... He sacrifices not only his livelihood but his life... knowing that many of us would uses it poorly and thus "enablingly"

It comes back to the principles of Zion and having all thing in common... How do we do so when there are those willing to take advantage of such?... We have not gotten that right since the New Testament times (and I am not sure how long it lasted then)

Indeed. Ideally we ought to be fixing our neighbor's computers while they ensure our kids have food or whatever needs are around to be met. But at this time is it a good idea to give and give without thought for your family's wellbeing? Or should we trust our neighbor to support us through hard times when the computer business collapses after all the free service?

[askandanswer]

I don't think the song was about enabling others or sacrifice your livelihood.

 

Yes, perhaps it is not about that. But its not hard to see how the sentiments that are praised in this song - give, give away, could easily contribute to the creation of a belief in a young and impressionable mind that that is what people are supposed to do - just give away. Which could then quite easily lead to an expectation, and maybe even a sense of entitlement. Clearly this would not be correct, but its not hard to see how it could happen. Might this be an example of an unwanted message that our Primary songs could be giving out?   

[Jane_Doe]

When it comes helping people, I'm all game for it-- on two conditions:

 

1)  If my helping you prevents you from learning how to help yourself, then that's not really helping.

2)  If my helping you greatly damages me (and/or my family), than that will impede my ability to help you and all others in the future.

[char713]

Yes, perhaps it is not about that. But its not hard to see how the sentiments that are praised in this song - give, give away, could easily contribute to the creation of a belief in a young and impressionable mind that that is what people are supposed to do - just give away. Which could then quite easily lead to an expectation, and maybe even a sense of entitlement. Clearly this would not be correct, but its not hard to see how it could happen. Might this be an example of an unwanted message that our Primary songs could be giving out?   

That's one problem with poetry or lyrics, they can and so often do leave much open to interpretation. But this song is hardly the only place where LDS children learn about the purpose and importance of service. If it was we'd have much bigger problems here than cheapness and entitlement. I have said this before I think, but having lived in Utah for five years now and in three different wards, I think I have started to put a finger on it. 

 

I should preface by saying that I grew up mostly overseas, where for the most part, our wards and branches were the closest thing we had to family within thousands of miles. Temples were usually at least a day's journey away and it took months to save up for youth temple trips. So we appreciated family more, we appreciated temple service more, and had to work harder as congregations to get along and work together. Utah is the absolute opposite of that, at least in my experience. Temples are taken for granted, most of the families in each of the wards we have lived in here have lived in the same city for decades and all of their extended family lives close by. And I think there is this subconscious attitude or expecation that because the church is so close-by on every side, and Church HQ is just up the road a bit, that we don't need to watch out for or take care of each other in any real way. Except for that which enriches our personal economy, that is, because our spiritual needs at least appear to be cushily provided-for.

 

Edit: I mean, just take church Christmas parties as a small example. We moved around a lot as I said, most of my life has been spent overseas. But we also lived a few years in wards on the east coast and in Colorado. My family is really big into Christmas and everything to do with it, so even for all the Christmas parties that I don't have specific memories of, photo and/or video evidence exists. Everywhere else I have lived except for Utah, the Christmas party was the absolute biggest ward event of the entire year, by a big margin. All the stops were pulled, big themes in the decor, lots of carol singalongs, and sometimes Nativity plays were planned in advance. And as much of the yearly budget as possible went toward the food, everything very festive. I hope most of you have experienced this. But not so in Utah, in my experience. I have now attended five ward christmas parties in three different wards. Each time they were very poorly promoted, even more poorly attended, four out of five were held in the morning, and at three of the five there was no mention of the Nativity story whatsoever.. all of them felt like just brief meet-n-greets with pancakes. I felt embarassed for the activities committees each time. I think this says a lot about the attitude of the wards as a whole and the focus they place on everything other than the ward as a unit. 

 

So if our neighbor has a marketable skill that we feel we could benefit from, before even speaking with him we expect that he will be eager for a service opportunity. Maybe we think it's because he spends enough time with his family who all (presumably) live nearby just like our own does, and he will undoubtedly relish the chance for time away from them. Or maybe he will do us this favor because he's a good guy and he knows that most of his customers are LDS too, and will appreciate a chance for selfless service. And we comfortably presume that any marketable skills that we might have to share are not well-known or very desireable and feel satisfied that any requests for reciprocity will be in the far-distant future, and maybe even easily deferrable onto someone else. 

Edited July 16, 2015 by char713

[Blackmarch]

Here, the economy or something anyway is killing more traditional stores. Sears is in bad bad shape. It would've been nice to have Target here, and thus another choice for consumers, but that didn't happen. 

i've seen quite a few go up around here but they don't seem to last very long. Only one so far has manged to stay.