Peter walking on the water


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In Western Australia mining engineers who have no faith in God spend their whole working lives working on the moving of mountains, and to a large extent, succeeding. These mountains are moved, bit by bit, at a rate of more than 100,000 tonnes per day through the use of enormous trains that transport iron ore from Australia to China. I suspect that works is playing a much greater role than faith in this process, but I'm confident that if those engineers did not at least start with the faith that those mountains could be removed, then they would not have started out on the process. 

 

I'm not sure if the Lord's will that something be done is one of the main things that enables faith to bring about a result. Sometimes, it might be sufficient, not so much that the Lord is agreeable to something being done, but simply that He is not opposed to the doing of that thing.

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I like this. You make a lot of really good points. Sure, it sounds humble, but I don't think it's a false humility.

As for those people who seem to argue that they have sufficient and others do not - if you're referring to me, I desperately want to emphasize what I've already said: I am no exception. Yes, I believe if we all had sufficient faith that we could all quit our jobs and live on faith and be powerful miracle-wielding missionaries - that each of us has the potential to be as great an apostle as Peter. But I typed those words from work, and you will still go to work on Monday and so will I. Believing that such faith, and its consequence, is possible is not the same as having such faith. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

 

Thanks Puf - I am impressed that you thought I might be referring to you.

 

I am concerned that you think quitting your job to be an act of faith.  Perhaps doing your job is the greater act of faith.  My work is in industrial automation and robotics.  I currently work from my home as a consultant.  My work has taken me to places where I have been able to introduce religious ideas to individuals (many of which are scientist and engineers) that perhaps could not have been reached even by someone moving mountains or parting seas.  I believe my work to often be inspired so that important individuals in different countries and cultures will ask me about the LDS religion and what I believe.

 

I honestly believe there are more people introduced to the restored gospel of Christ by individuals living by faith at work (I baptized a young man on my mission that was converted through the example of a fellow worker at a hamburger joint) than by flashy miracles - and to be honest I am more impressed by such converts that those that see angles or other such things.

 

 

 

Actually, yes. That is exactly how I understand what the prophets and apostles have been advising us from the beginning of time. Faith is nothing like magic - magic has limits. 

But why do you call it a delusion? Do you believe that Peter walked on water? Do you believe that Jacob commanded the trees? Do you believe that Enoch commanded the rivers to be moved out of their place? Do you believe that Moses parted the Red Sea? MY question to you is - if you do believe that these men did these things, WHY don't you believe that you can do them?

1 Nephi 4:2-3. Wherefore can ye doubt?

Like I've said. I'm no exception. I haven't moved any mountains or rivers lately. I suppose what makes me different is that I know I haven't moved any mountains and I read these scriptures and I ask myself "Why?". Why haven't I moved any mountains? Why haven't I walked on water? I keep searching for answers and the only answer that keeps coming back to me is that I am holding myself back. I'm no prophet, I have no authority for you to respect, so feel free to disagree with me. But I ask that you consider the possibility that maybe I am not delusional.

 

I have personally known a few apostles and prophets.  They are not so different from all of us except their call to service is perhaps more involved than ours as a matter of scale.  The greatest miracle anyone can perform is to assist in that which touches someone's heart and changes them from a child of the world to a child of G-d willing to covenant to become a saint -- even if that heart that is touched is only your own.

Edited by Traveler
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Crtainly God's will must be present. However, sometimes it feels to me as if we use this belief to justify our lack of faith. For instance we might begin to doubt and because of our doubts we see no miracle. But we dont want to face that reality so we assume it wasn't the Lord's will.

In the opposite vein, take Peter's example. There is no earth shattering reason why he walked on water. He simply asked the Lord and the Jesus said, "come". Let's be careful about placing limits on what the Lord is willing to grant us.

Well this misses my point entirely.

Actually, no, that is EXACTLY my point. I am not suggesting that we go out and perform miracles against God's will. I am suggesting that God's will is for us to go out and perform miracles. Our unwillingness to confront our own lack of faith is what prevents us from understanding this or achieving it.

 

Because, Puf, there is no doing of our own will when it comes to these things, ever. The will of God will be done. The works of God will be done. As God wills, so it will be. And that is the exercising of faith -- not turning stones into bread so we don't have to work anymore, particularly when it is, plainly, and scripturally, and taught by the prophets through the ages, the will of God that we earn our keep by the sweat of our brow.

 

Miracles by faith cannot rightly be described as being the accomplishment of anything we want by some magical power of belief. That has no relationship to the truth of faith and miracles whatsoever. Faith is commitment to doing the will of the Father, and miracles come by His hand, not our, according to His will, not ours.

 

We cannot "faith" something into being against God's will.

 

This concept is clearly taught in Helaman 10 where Nephi is given "power".

 

4 Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments.

 

5 And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.

 

6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.

 

7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

 

8 And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done.

 

9 And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done.

 

10 And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

The takeaway points: Nephi is given power because of obedience and because the Lord knows that Nephi will do nothing against His will.

 

So I repeat the question again: Why haven't you moved mountains or walked on water? Maybe...just perhaps...it isn't the Lord's will that you do so.

 

You see, to me, once more, your logic is failing. You're taking the evidence you see as proof of lack of faith instead of proof of God's will. And that does not follow. There is no reason to presume that righteous men (note, once more, that Nephi's power is granted him because of obedience) who aren't moving mountains don't have enough faith. There is, rather, according to the scriptural evidence given, a great deal of reason to presume that righteous men who aren't moving mountains aren't doing so because God does not will it to be.

 

And going out and quitting our jobs on "faith" would be directly going against God's will who has proclaimed through His prophets that we are to gain an education, earn our ways, provide for our families, etc., and going against God's will is pretty much the surest way to fail in regards to faith. And that is wherein I find delusion. I believe that anyone, through faith and obedience, can accomplish the will of the Lord, including the moving of mountains. But I know it's delusional to think that we can move a mountain against God's will simply by believing hard enough.

The reason that I see the lack of miracles as evidence of a lack of faith rather than as evidence of God's will is because, in the scriptures and in my own experience, God's will is fairly evident. Taken together the revelations past and present show me a God who is begging us to have this kind of faith. BEGGING!
 

It's worth mentioning that Moses was able to bring forth water from the rock against the will of God. He was told to speak to the rock, he hit it in anger, the rock still brought forth water. It is very possible to perform miracles against the will of God - but it is not possible to do so without consequences. I do NOT endorse going against the will of God ;)

 

Thanks Puf - I am impressed that you thought I might be referring to you.

 

I am concerned that you think quitting your job to be an act of faith.  Perhaps doing your job is the greater act of faith.  My work is in industrial automation and robotics.  I currently work from my home as a consultant.  My work has taken me to places where I have been able to introduce religious ideas to individuals (many of which are scientist and engineers) that perhaps could not have been reached even by someone moving mountains or parting seas.  I believe my work to often be inspired so that important individuals in different countries and cultures will ask me about the LDS religion and what I believe.

 

I honestly believe there are more people introduced to the restored gospel of Christ by individuals living by faith at work (I baptized a young man on my mission that was converted through the example of a fellow worker at a hamburger joint) than by flashy miracles - and to be honest I am more impressed by such converts that those that see angles or other such things.

 

 

 

I have personally known a few apostles and prophets.  They are not so different from all of us except their call to service is perhaps more involved than ours as a matter of scale.  The greatest miracle anyone can perform is to assist in that which touches someone's heart and changes them from a child of the world to a child of G-d willing to covenant to become a saint -- even if that heart that is touched is only your own.

Yeah, I know I have poor communication skills and I'm often misunderstood. So when I read your post I thought "Yeah, I can see how someone could think I was doing that." So I wanted to make what amends I could.

I don't know how I can explain this better. Going to work and having a job is not a bad thing. Yes, lots of missionary work can be done through our day jobs. And through many other avenues of our regular lives. That good that many people can do and are doing is not at all in dispute. But I'm sure each of us can say to ourselves on occasion, "What good I am doing now, I could do more good if my faith were just a little bit stronger." That's a common enough thought. What if we take it one step further? "What good I am doing, what more could I do if I had a lot more faith?" Take it to the extreme! "What good I am doing now, what more could I do if I had perfect faith?"

 

No, prophets and apostles are not so different from us. Which is all I'm really saying. None of us is that different from Peter, who walked on water. Walking on water is nothing compared to the miracle of conversion - being a missionary is to be the ultimate miracle worker. How much more effective missionaries could we be if we truly "took no thought for the morrow"? 

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It's worth mentioning that Moses was able to bring forth water from the rock against the will of God.

 

Well this is just beyond any sense of reason...so far to the point that I cannot see any value in continuing the discussion.

 

So I guess...go ahead and quit your job and go turn rocks into bread if you believe this is God's will. Good luck.

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Stating the fact that miracles are according to God's will does not equate to putting limits on what the Lord is willing to do for us.

Latter-day Saints, and Christians in general, tend to make a lot of assumptions about God's will. Especially in the absence of miracles.

 

If we pray for a miracle and it doesn't happen.... Well, we talk a lot about how maybe it was not God's will to grant the requested blessing, or that God gave us a trial so that we could learn from it. Certainly, when these are true, it is wonderful to recognize them. But I believe that, more often than not, these are rationalizations because we refuse to admit that we just don't have the faith. 

 

Nobody wants to be the one laying their hands on the sick saying "Be Healed!" and then watch the sick person die. Least of all me. 

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Stating the fact that miracles are according to God's will does not equate to putting limits on what the Lord is willing to do for us.

No of course not. But as Puf has stated, it is very common in the church to say we don't receive certain blessings because it wasn't God's will. This absolves us from facing hard truths about our lack of faith. I am simply commenting on a such a scenario in the hopes that some might recognize the error.

 

Don't worry Folk Prophet I'm not attacking your post. I can see your point. 

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Sorry, Finrock. I have no idea what it is you're trying to say regarding what I wrote and the law of Moses. You are somehow comparing them, but I do not at all see what you're driving at.

 

Hi Vort! :)

 

It's okay. Perhaps this time you aren't the intended audience but rather just the catalyst!

 

-Finrock

 

In Western Australia mining engineers who have no faith in God spend their whole working lives working on the moving of mountains, and to a large extent, succeeding. These mountains are moved, bit by bit, at a rate of more than 100,000 tonnes per day through the use of enormous trains that transport iron ore from Australia to China. I suspect that works is playing a much greater role than faith in this process, but I'm confident that if those engineers did not at least start with the faith that those mountains could be removed, then they would not have started out on the process. 

 

I'm not sure if the Lord's will that something be done is one of the main things that enables faith to bring about a result. Sometimes, it might be sufficient, not so much that the Lord is agreeable to something being done, but simply that He is not opposed to the doing of that thing.

 

I submit that those mountains are being moved by no other force than faith. To expound, it seems to me that God is teaching me that I have more faith than I think and because I am not special and God is no respector of persons, it then means that all people have more faith in them than they believe. I have been able to do and witness some powerful miracles, not because I am or was superbly righteous or good, but rather because I exercised faith in Jesus Christ. Within me and each of us is the power to do more than we suppose or think. We limit ourselves too often. The limits that exist in my life, exist because of the limits I place due to my unbelief in the Father and in His Son.

 

-Finrock

Edited by Finrock
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No of course not. But as Puf has stated, it is very common in the church to say we don't receive certain blessings because it wasn't God's will. This absolves us from facing hard truths about our lack of faith. I am simply commenting on a such a scenario in the hopes that some might recognize the error.

 

You're only presuming error.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong in every case. But how do you know? You're just presume that it's an excuse? Sometimes, sure. But I think it's, as with many things, not our place to judge such.

 

But...sure. Some people, of course, rest on their laurels and never progress spiritually and claim it's God's will when in reality they simply haven't made any effort to grow spiritually. That's obvious.

 

My problem is with the idea that someone not moving mountains or parting seas is evidence of this, and/or that the solution is for everyone to quit their jobs because if we had faith we'd just do magic to survive.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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It is my opinion that we all exist in a great ocean of miracles.  I do not believe that G-d does some miracles through some that he does not do through others - I believe that the difference of faith is not so much changing things (miracles) that are happening as it is being able to recognize the miracles that are taking place around all of us everyday.  I do not believe that miracles happen just for righteous or good people - but I do believe that only the righteous or good people will have the manifestations of the spirit to recognize them.  Thus; those that think that miracles have ceased - it is only because they lack faith and do not recognize what is going on.  I also do not believe that because of faith we can generate our own miracles - I believe that is the wrong attitude that will only make us an easy mark for deception and the temptation of pride.

 

Sadly; I believe that for most if they understood a miracle that they would be greatly disappointed that it was not a departure from the principles and laws that govern our universe but rather intelligent and creative use of the laws and principles by which things are governed.  I believe the greatest miracle that takes place in an individual is that faith that allows us all to be thankful, love and enjoy the most difficult and mundane things we each have come to mortality to experience and learn of.

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Nobody wants to be the one laying their hands on the sick saying "Be Healed!" and then watch the sick person die. Least of all me. 

 

That's one of those times when you have to be sure you're listening to the Spirit over your own feelings; I've heard from more than one Priesthood holder who showed up intending to give a healing blessing to a very sick person and ended up blessing them for a peaceful passage.  All said it was a hard realization that they needed to speak those words to someone they had hoped to keep around for a while longer.

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Latter-day Saints, and Christians in general, tend to make a lot of assumptions about God's will. Especially in the absence of miracles.

 

If we pray for a miracle and it doesn't happen.... Well, we talk a lot about how maybe it was not God's will to grant the requested blessing, or that God gave us a trial so that we could learn from it. Certainly, when these are true, it is wonderful to recognize them. But I believe that, more often than not, these are rationalizations because we refuse to admit that we just don't have the faith. 

 

Nobody wants to be the one laying their hands on the sick saying "Be Healed!" and then watch the sick person die. Least of all me. 

 

A thought - in the scientific world we define intelligence as the ability to learn - which in essence means that through experience, being able to learn and modify our behavior.  Some of us (obviously from my post - myself included) need experience in order to learn and change not just our behavior but understanding of things.  Laying one's hands on someone and saying "Be healed!" can be such an experience by which someone can learn and grow spiritually - learning to listen more carefully to the spirit and realize that blessing someone to pass in faith is a great miracle - perhaps even greater that being healed.

 

As priesthood holders - fear is the opposite of faith and is more likely to take us away from the spirit than a mistake of presumption - which BTW - is easily covered up in the workings of the spirit but fear to act cannot ever be overcome.

Edited by Traveler
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I do not want to be the guy who says, "Be healed!", and then the recipient of the blessing dies.

 

But I also do not want to be the guy who feels prompted to perform a miraculous healing, but through self-doubt or timidity does not do so, until the time is passed and the miraculous result withdrawn due to failure to act. I can't imagine that the former case would feel much worse than the latter.

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You're only presuming error.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong in every case. But how do you know? You're just presume that it's an excuse? Sometimes, sure. But I think it's, as with many things, not our place to judge such.

 

But...sure. Some people, of course, rest on their laurels and never progress spiritually and claim it's God's will when in reality they simply haven't made any effort to grow spiritually. That's obvious.

 

My problem is with the idea that someone not moving mountains or parting seas is evidence of this, and/or that the solution is for everyone to quit their jobs because if we had faith we'd just do magic to survive.

So I'm being presumptuous. I'll buy that for a buck. If I were talking about specific people or specific cases, I'd say I was being downright judgmental and thoroughly hypocritical. But I'm trying to keep this generic. Speaking of the church collectively, and not individually. Just look at the restoration - We have recent historical records of events like the dedication of the Kirtland Temple, which freaked the bejesus out of non-member witnesses. We have recent historical records of people being raised from the dead. We have recent historical records of the elements being commanded. Based on historical and scriptural accounts, brilliant manifestations of the Spirit of God should be quite a bit more common than they are. (To wit - I'm not aware that any such things happen at all anymore, and THAT really bothers me. Have miracles altogether ceased from out of the land?)

I don't expect all 15 million mormons to quit their jobs and use magic to sustain themselves. You're taking a menial example way too literally (not to mention taking the real, tangible power of faith and relegating it to the realm of superstition and card tricks). I absolutely DO expect all 15 million mormons to believe that quitting their job and using faith to survive and share the Gospel is possible and that they should seek for (and obtain) that faith. How they use that faith and how it manifests will be different for each person, based on their circumstances and needs and spiritual gifts. How it manifests is immaterial - the fact is that faith as a grain of mustard seed manifests, and we haven't seen any manifestations in decades.

 

I'm trying to encourage you to take what the Savior said at face value and believe it: "ALL things are possible to him that believeth." I'm astonished that such an idea should meet any resistance!

 

 

No of course not. But as Puf has stated, it is very common in the church to say we don't receive certain blessings because it wasn't God's will. This absolves us from facing hard truths about our lack of faith. I am simply commenting on a such a scenario in the hopes that some might recognize the error.

 

Don't worry Folk Prophet I'm not attacking your post. I can see your point. 

I'm glad that one person understood what I was saying :) 

 

 

I submit that those mountains are being moved by no other force than faith. To expound, it seems to me that God is teaching me that I have more faith than I think and because I am not special and God is no respector of persons, it then means that all people have more faith in them than they believe. I have been able to do and witness some powerful miracles, not because I am or was superbly righteous or good, but rather because I exercised faith in Jesus Christ. Within me and each of us is the power to do more than we suppose or think. We limit ourselves too often. The limits that exist in my life, exist because of the limits I place due to my unbelief in the Father and in His Son.

 

-Finrock

Lectures on faith covers that - faith is the principle of ALL action. You probably know that, already :) I guess I'm just saying I agree :)

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 How they use that faith and how it manifests will be different for each person, based on their circumstances and needs and spiritual gifts. How it manifests is immaterial - the fact is that faith as a grain of mustard seed manifests, and we haven't seen any manifestations in decades.

 

 

This summarizes the presumption you are making..  You say it manifests differently... Then you claim on behalf of every that "we haven't seen any manifestation in decades"  That is incredibly presumptive.  You don't speak for me, and I will tell you I see the power of faith manifesting miracles pretty regularly.  If you don't in your life, then I feel sorry for you, but don't project your lack of faith on to me or anyone less.

 

 

 

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It is my opinion that we all exist in a great ocean of miracles.  I do not believe that G-d does some miracles through some that he does not do through others - I believe that the difference of faith is not so much changing things (miracles) that are happening as it is being able to recognize the miracles that are taking place around all of us everyday.  I do not believe that miracles happen just for righteous or good people - but I do believe that only the righteous or good people will have the manifestations of the spirit to recognize them.  Thus; those that think that miracles have ceased - it is only because they lack faith and do not recognize what is going on.  I also do not believe that because of faith we can generate our own miracles - I believe that is the wrong attitude that will only make us an easy mark for deception and the temptation of pride.

 

Sadly; I believe that for most if they understood a miracle that they would be greatly disappointed that it was not a departure from the principles and laws that govern our universe but rather intelligent and creative use of the laws and principles by which things are governed.  I believe the greatest miracle that takes place in an individual is that faith that allows us all to be thankful, love and enjoy the most difficult and mundane things we each have come to mortality to experience and learn of.

I agree with everything you've said. But I also think that many people say that in the same way they say "It was not the Lord's will" to grant some particular, more visible, miracle. Such a phrase may be factually true, at times, but I know of no doctrine that excludes the visible miracles because of the invisible ones. I want us all to be aware of where we're holding ourselves back and blaming it on God.

Occasionally someone needs one of the big, visible miracles. Will they even have the faith to ask for it, if our culture downplays the importance of such manifestations of faith?

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So I'm being presumptuous. I'll buy that for a buck. If I were talking about specific people or specific cases, I'd say I was being downright judgmental and thoroughly hypocritical. But I'm trying to keep this generic.

 

And yet, even in the generics, there cannot help but be a very strong implication of judgement, particularly against our leaders.

 

 

(Have miracles altogether ceased from out of the land?)

 

No. They are just not the miracles that you want to see. But there are miracles, a plenty. I have witnessed them myself. I suspect you have too, but you've, apparently, closed your mind to them because they don't strike you and fantastical enough.

 

 

I don't expect all 15 million mormons to quit their jobs and use magic to sustain themselves. You're taking a menial example way too literally (not to mention taking the real, tangible power of faith and relegating it to the realm of superstition and card tricks). 

 

Apparently you miss that my facetiousness is intended to imply that I feel it is you who is taking the real, tangible power of faith and relegating it to the realm of only the those extreme examples we read about in the scriptures, and thereby deny the true, and meaning miracles that occur around us all the time.

 

I absolutely DO expect all 15 million mormons to believe that quitting their job and using faith to survive and share the Gospel is possible and that they should seek for (and obtain) that faith.

 

In this we agree. Where we do not agree is in implications that by not doing this we are not manifesting faith, or that doing anything like this would conform in any way to the will of God. But, yes, we all should believe that we could do this if it were God's intent for us to do so.

 

How it manifests is immaterial - 

 

And yet everything you're saying contradicts this and screams that how it manifests is, indeed, quite "material" to you.

 

and we haven't seen any manifestations in decades.

 

I have.

 

 

I'm trying to encourage you to take what the Savior said at face value and believe it: "ALL things are possible to him that believeth." I'm astonished that such an idea should meet any resistance!

 

There is no resistance whatsoever to this idea, and the fact that you believe there is tells me that you do not understand at all what I'm saying. I believe, very firmly, that all things are possible to him that believeth. I also know, quite well, that what really matters in life is the saving of souls, and that is how God's miracles are primarily manifested.

 

I'm glad that one person understood what I was saying :)

 

But you seem to be saying much, much more than this.

 

As I replied to James12, there is, clearly, a need for us all to continue to work on our faith. Of course. But the implication that the church is dwindling in some stagnant quagmire of non-faith is dismissive of the incredible and marvelous work the Lord is bringing about through His faithful servants who go about humbly doing His will. Yes, it should be all 15 million of us...and more. No, it's not. But to imply (scratch that...to outright say) that miracles have ceased is just...well...faithless.

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This summarizes the presumption you are making..  You say it manifests differently... Then you claim on behalf of every that "we haven't seen any manifestation in decades"  That is incredibly presumptive.  You don't speak for me, and I will tell you I see the power of faith manifesting miracles pretty regularly.  If you don't in your life, then I feel sorry for you, but don't project your lack of faith on to me or anyone less.

 

 

 

And yet, even in the generics, there cannot help but be a very strong implication of judgement, particularly against our leaders.

 

 

 

No. They are just not the miracles that you want to see. But there are miracles, a plenty. I have witnessed them myself. I suspect you have too, but you've, apparently, closed your mind to them because they don't strike you and fantastical enough.

 

 

 

Apparently you miss that my facetiousness is intended to imply that I feel it is you who is taking the real, tangible power of faith and relegating it to the realm of only the those extreme examples we read about in the scriptures, and thereby deny the true, and meaning miracles that occur around us all the time.

 

 

In this we agree. Where we do not agree is in implications that by not doing this we are not manifesting faith, or that doing anything like this would conform in any way to the will of God. But, yes, we all should believe that we could do this if it were God's intent for us to do so.

 

 

And yet everything you're saying contradicts this and screams that how it manifests is, indeed, quite "material" to you.

 

 

I have.

 

 

 

There is no resistance whatsoever to this idea, and the fact that you believe there is tells me that you do not understand at all what I'm saying. I believe, very firmly, that all things are possible to him that believeth. I also know, quite well, that what really matters in life is the saving of souls, and that is how God's miracles are primarily manifested.

 

 

But you seem to be saying much, much more than this.

 

As I replied to James12, there is, clearly, a need for us all to continue to work on our faith. Of course. But the implication that the church is dwindling in some stagnant quagmire of non-faith is dismissive of the incredible and marvelous work the Lord is bringing about through His faithful servants who go about humbly doing His will. Yes, it should be all 15 million of us...and more. No, it's not. But to imply (scratch that...to outright say) that miracles have ceased is just...well...faithless.

Taken together, those last two responses indicate unequivocally that I am being completely misunderstood. I have done my best. To explain what I'm trying to say any more clearly or plainly would be beyond my ability. I've never been a good communicator, in spite of the efforts I continue to make to improve on that weakness.

 

I'll give it one last go, because I'm stubborn and optimistic.

First things first. Definitions.

Miracle: an act of God on behalf of one or more humans, generally supernatural and unexplainable by contemporary means.

Small Miracle: a miracle which is visible or recognizable primarily to the person who the miracle was meant to benefit.

Big Miracle: a miracle which is visible or recognizable to many, most, or even all observers. 

The eternal importance of a miracle is not material to these definitions. The most important miracle, the change of heart accompanying conversion to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is by far the most important and profound miracle, and it would be a "small" miracle in this context.

 

In our LDS context, small miracles are generally recounted as signs to the faithful. Big miracles are generally recounted as signs of the faithful. Small miracles are wonderful blessings to one or a few people. Big miracles are that, but also benefit a great many more people.

 

Since my own faith has been attacked, let me state it succinctly: My life is replete with small miracles. Some of these have been absolutely incredible and, to use a modern euphemism, mind-blowing. I do not and am not and have not at all intended to discount the small miracles happening every moment around us. But were I to recount my small miracles on this forum, it is not likely to have any significant effect on any of you, because they are small - personal and specific to me.

 

This conversation seems to be revolving around the importance of big miracles. The general attitude in the church is that "big miracles don't matter, because the small miracles are usually the most important ones." While that statement may be factually true, I think most of the time we use it as an excuse, a way to rationalize why big miracles aren't more common. Insert James12's remarks here, because he's much more succinct than I am.

No of course not. But as Puf has stated, it is very common in the church to say we don't receive certain blessings because it wasn't God's will. This absolves us from facing hard truths about our lack of faith. I am simply commenting on a such a scenario in the hopes that some might recognize the error.

If I am saying anything more than that, it is to add that if all of us were to truly and honestly examine our faith, some would find it lacking more than they thought, but others would find it stronger than they knew - and in both cases we would see less talk debating "the will of God" and more big miracles.

 

As for quitting our jobs not being the will of God - I dunno, when was the last time you asked Him if that's what you should do? Let's suppose you did ask, and He said "yes, quit your job and go preach my Gospel, and I will fill your gas tank and your belly." Would you do it?

I know there are some who would, who do. Mission presidents are the great example to me. I just wonder why these powerful spiritual giants seem to be the minority.

If I'm projecting my own lack of faith on the rest of the world, and all of you guys see big miracles in your own lives every day. Well. Pray for me, that my faith fails not :)

Edited by puf_the_majic_dragon
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I'll give it one last go, because I'm stubborn and optimistic.

First things first. Definitions.

Miracle: an act of God on behalf of one or more humans, generally supernatural and unexplainable by contemporary means.

Small Miracle: a miracle which is visible or recognizable primarily to the person who the miracle was meant to benefit.

Big Miracle: a miracle which is visible or recognizable to many, most, or even all observers. 

The eternal importance of a miracle is not material to these definitions. The most important miracle, the change of heart accompanying conversion to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is by far the most important and profound miracle, and it would be a "small" miracle in this context.

 

 

 

And we are saying that faith that can produce small miracles is faith enough to move mountains  (see parable of the mustard seed)

 

And that the desire for "big" miracles is the equivalent of "Sign Seeking"

 

Big or small a miracle is a miracle

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In our LDS context, small miracles are generally recounted as signs to the faithful. Big miracles are generally recounted as signs of the faithful. 

 

I am concluding that you really don't quite understand what being faithful actually means.

 

Small miracles are wonderful blessings to one or a few people.

 

And yet the miraculous work rolls forward.

 

The general attitude in the church is that "big miracles don't matter, because the small miracles are usually the most important ones." While that statement may be factually true, I think most of the time we use it as an excuse, a way to rationalize why big miracles aren't more common.

 

Why would one feel the need to rationalize the why "big" miracles aren't more common if one believes truly that "small" miracles are the important ones?

 

If I am saying anything more than that, it is to add that if all of us were to truly and honestly examine our faith, some would find it lacking more than they thought, 

 

Once more, I don't think you quite understand what faith actually is.

 

It really strikes me, (and, please, correct me if I'm wrong) that you think if we just believed harder that "big" fantastic things would happen. And yet, belief is not equivalent to faith.

 

Do you understand that?

 

Do you understand what it means to be faithful? Are you faithful to anyone? (A wife, for example?) What does that mean? That you believe in her? No. It means, much, much more.

 

You're trying to shove down our throats that we, the kingdom of God, at large, are faithless. We are, conversely, infidels. And your proof is that we're not moving mountains - despite your confession that you have seen miracles among us? May I remind you that miracles come by faith. ALL miracles? Not just the "big" ones. So if you have seen miracles, then it is proof that people are faithful. As you've pointed out, if miracles cease, so has faith. But miracles have not ceased, and neither has faith.

 

As for quitting our jobs not being the will of God - I dunno, when was the last time you asked Him if that's what you should do?

 

I pray fervently about all my life choices -- most definitely my career choices, where I live, how I spend my time, who I should involve myself with, etc. I also know of very, very few (none I can think of) faithful Latter-day Saints who do not pray, sincerely, including fasting and temple attendance, to make serious life choices, including career ones.

 

I'm actually wondering how you can conclude that this is not what "the faithful" are doing.

 

Let's suppose you did ask, and He said "yes, quit your job and go preach my Gospel, and I will fill your gas tank and your belly." Would you do it?

 

Of course. This is what faith is. I will go and do, etc...

 

I know there are some who would, who do. Mission presidents are the great example to me. I just wonder why these powerful spiritual giants seem to be the minority.

 

You seem filled by a fair amount of cynicism. I have no doubt that there are a great many who are weak in their faith in the church. But your dismal view of how few faithful there are strikes me as...well...cynical.

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From a bishop I know:

 

He and a friend (both returned missionaries) were traveling along the Alaska Highway (towards Alaska) in an open jeep for seasonal work.  The highway is often nothing more than a dirt road.  One particular part passes through a mountain range and is hundreds of miles from any towns.  This part of the highway is particularly dangerous with rock faced cliffs on both sides - one a drop off the other almost straight up.  The road is also steep with hardly room for one vehicle - meeting a vehicle going the opposite direction is a dangerous hazard.  In addition, with the altitude of the mountains - there are patches of ice even in summertime.  An accident along this section of road - even a minor accident disabling a vehicle could result in death.

 

As my bishop friend drove along the road with his friend beside him they rounded a turn and faced a large truck coming towards them.  One side was a cliff of several hundred feet and no guard rail; the other side solid rock and over a hundred feet up.  But part of the road was washed out and there was hardly room for even one of the vehicles and almost no time to react.  The truck applied brakes but started to slide on ice - someone would likely be killed in the next few moments.  Then in an instant the friend grabbed above the windshield of the jeep and stood up - then with a loud voice holding up one hand against the mountain commanded the mountain (by the power of the priesthood and in the name of Jesus Christ) to move.  Without a sound the solid rock shifted to the side some 20 feet or more giving ample room for the jeep to pass by the truck.   Immediately after passing and without a sound the mountain moved back.

 

My bishop friend was greatly astonished  but mostly because his friend was not at the time living in obedience to all his covenants.  His friend was also astonished and said it was almost as if something else took over him and caused him to do it.  The event was a life changing event for both of them and even after many years the memory still prompted them to remember their priesthood covenants.   When I listened to the story the spirit prompted me that it was true almost to the point of my being there.

 

I give this story rather than one of my own for personal reasons - but also as a witness that such miracles do occur in our day.  I have seen and heard of many miracles - all done through the power of the Melchizedek Priesthood and in the Name of Jesus Christ.  However, other than the story in Matthew I have never heard or received any witness of the miracle of someone walking on water.  I would be interested - especially if anyone has received a witness of this particular miracle.

 

One last point - in my experiences with miracles (including those that involve angles) is that it is perhaps more likely that  miracles come with a prompting to repent rather than as a conformation of exceptional righteousness.

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Who is going to step up and speak with their actions rather than their words? Because it seems that is what it is going to take in order to convince many that what is being spoken is not an attack but rather an invitation. The Brethren are making the same call to stop living beneath our privilege, to hasten the work, etc.

 

The state of home teaching is a great sign of our illness and lack of faith as a people. We are happy with crackers when we could be feasting on steak!

 

I freely admit that I am a coward. I have cowered at the thought of exercising the type of faith that I see witnessed in the scriptures. I've used the same ideas pointed out in this thread to pacify myself in to believing that I don't need to follow in the footsteps of those saints who have come before and who have made it.

 

I am constantly rationalizing away the powerful thoughts, the powerful ideas, the ideas that seem like they belong to the scriptures and not to real life because, well, in real life I need to be satisfied with crackers and being satisfied with crackers is true faith! But, in my life I have found that God has provided more than just crackers to sustain me! In fact, He has demonstrated to me that I have been rejecting Him by rejecting what He wants to give me. Therefore I reject the notion that being satisfied with crackers is true faith! I believe that God wants to give me a lot more than just crackers and that He intended me to have a feast and to enjoy all that He wants to give me...today!

 

But, I'm a coward and I shy away because I don't want to be let down, I don't want to admit that I'm weak, or that I just may not believe in God as much as I profess with my lips. I am glad that I have time to repent still. I am glad that God is merciful. I am glad that God is patient. I am glad that God does not condemn me for my weaknesses but rather is lovingly helping me to see them and turn them in to strengths.

 

-Finrock

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@Traveler - That is a fantastic story. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe these things happen all the time and we just don't talk about them. If so, why don't we? Is it because we think that every spiritual experience is "sacred" and we equate "sacred" with "thou shalt not talk about it"? Or is it because we're afraid that others won't believe us? Maybe a bit of both. I choose to believe you, because it gives me hope that maybe I'm more wrong than I am right, and this would be a wonderful thing to be wrong about.

 

@The Folk Prophet - Yes, I'm cynical. But nobody is born a cynic. If I doubt the frequency of big miracles, it's because every time I suggest that each and every one of us can do them, I get pooh-poohed and told I'm delusional. The fact that we're having this conversation at all is fully reinforcing my cynicism. 

 

I did not ask if you prayed about your life and career choices. I asked if you prayed specifically about that life choice - to quit your job and live wholly on faith and miracles. I am fairly certain that, as often as you've prayed about your career choices, that was never an option you considered. And there are two reasons why you never considered it: either it never occurred to you, or you cast it away as impossible, impractical, delusional, or "not God's will" (before you asked Him).

As long as we're conditioned to never ask God open-ended questions, we will only ask about the choices we know we have - and we will always ignore the options we're totally unaware of. Or worse - ignore the options we think are impossible, which is my whole point. No option is impossible.

 

Big miracles ARE important. Less important than the powerful, personal, "small" miracles, maybe, but less important does not mean unimportant. Jesus would not have told us that we could command a mountain and have it instantly remove itself unless it was vitally important. It was vitally important to Traveler's bishop.

 

I am not saying that members of the church in any proportion are faithless (without faith). I am suggesting that we put limits on our faith, and thereby limit ourselves. That we hold ourselves back. That we've created this cultural box, and everything in the box is faith and everything outside the box is "delusional" or "magic" and in all ways just plain preposterous. So preposterous, that when something outside the box does happen, we're afraid to talk about it in a Fast and Testimony meeting because nobody would believe us. We've developed this list of reasons why God won't grant us the big miracle we're requesting, nevermind that most of those reasons are flimsy at best, and several are just straight up false. I question that list. And I ask you to question that list. And if we get enough people to question that list - maybe one of them will tear it up and baptize 1000 people in a day. And maybe someone else will tear it up and baptize their whole office. And maybe, just maybe, someone will tear it up and exercise faith even as the brother of Jared did.

 

@Flinrock - It's nice to have a translator. I get worked up and forceful in my dialogue, which is part of my communications deficiency that I'm working on improving. But yes, this is meant to be an invitation to believe and not be afraid to act on that belief. It's definitely not supposed to be an argument :(

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Puf,

 

Now who's putting limits on God? When I pray to Him to guide me in my career I listen carefully for the Spirit's answers and consider the possibilities with my best efforts at wisdom, just as I have been counseled to do. I feel quite confident that I don't need to ask every single question (should I do this? Should I do this? Should I do this?....) before being guided, and quite confident that the Lord will guide me according to His will if I humbly seek. Your indictment is groundless. You presume, perhaps on your own limits, that God cannot make His will known to us without us specifically coming up with the answer ourselves first. Well, sometimes He works that way. Sometimes He does not. What He always does is guide His humble followers.

 

Moreover, no, I have not specifically considered if I should quit my job and go live off of turning rocks into stone, just the same as I did not consider not going on a mission, and just the same as I have never considered turning down a calling, and just the same as I've never considered murdering my family. Okay...that last one's a ridiculous comparison. I get flippant. Sue me.

 

I believe in following the counsels of the church's appointed leader, and I have prayed to know they are prophets, seers, and revelators, and I don't believe it is proper to pray against their counsel. In fact I consider doing so faithless. If there is (as may sometimes happen) an exception to that, I trust God will let me know. When it's time to cut of Laban's head, the Spirit can make itself known to the humble. But, no, I'm not going to go pray about cutting off peoples head just in case it's God's will for me.

 

But what God has clearly, and repeatedly, counseled us is to seek employment, support our families, be prepared temporally, etc., etc., etc. 

 

Anyhow, I don't know where you get the idea that, "What should I do with my career?" or, "What wouldst thou have me do?" or "Where should I live?" or even, "Please guide me according to thy will" or anything like unto that are not open-ended questions.

 

I am suggesting that we put limits on our faith, and thereby limit ourselves.

 

This is the crux of where we disagree I think. I wonder what it is that you think putting limits on our faith means. I have no doubt that some do. But I suspect that your view of how is very, very different than mine.

 

So let me ask you this: How does one exercise faith, exactly? (And, conversely, how does one not?) I suggested earlier that I think your view of it is that it's all about just believing hard enough. Is this accurate?

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