Youtube Apologetics


cdowis
 Share

Recommended Posts

First. Apologetics... I disapprove of them as much as I do communists and atheists. Second people do have their agency including the people I disapprove. I would tear a limb out if the Lord asks me to defend their free agency. We may not like it ultimately the only one to judge is the Lord, after all it is his prerogative at the end of days. 

I wouldn´t even busy myself with people who intend nothing but ridicule my faith because there will never be a common ground and struggling breeds resentment. Sure I have said the one or two unsavory things towards annoying people but in the end it is a waste of time. You do what do best by simply doing it. Words are after all wind. And frankly alienating people does not really promote appeal. It is good to stand up for oneself and your conviction but the same holds true for the "lovely" people that are on the other side of the spectrum. Frankly I was given the best advise ad my baptism. Follow faithfully but not blindly. I elevated this to the most important thing that became the pillar of my faith. Often I find Apologetic people also getting out of touch and line with reality, raising fuss where the battle is either lost or not worth it. 

I personally think, time would be wisely spend to do as our Lord savior asks us. Care for the poor, be excellent and do hat pleases the Lord and not necessarily church, leadership or you fellow member. I would love to remind you all strongly, that each and everyone has a covenant with the Lord and not with the people and that he loves each and everyone unconditionally. Unless some of our beautiful fellow member forgot that, then I would read that again and try to set this in motion to be a good example to emulate. yes... he even loves the people not being kind or questioning us and I do believe that is their right to do so as long as they don´t hinder us in our right to exercise faith. 

Besides, if you have rats in the house, you call the exterminator and not a clown. There is much to be done within our own ranks as there is plenty of screw ups that actually need apologizing for while making amends. So in that regard, I am not even sure if being an apologetic is just not simply an idle indulgence... while the actually things that need doing get neglected. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Hemisphere said:
24 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Do you know what "apology" is?

yeah, and they are not worth a lot if made constantly without meaning or defending blindly a cause which may under circumstances not even be just. 

It sounds like you don't know.

Quote

a defense, excuse, or justification in speech or writing, as for a causeor doctrine.

< Late Latin < Greek: a speaking in defense.

In this present instance, apologetics is Brother Dowis (along with others) defending LDS positions, doctrines, and practices against spurious charges made by antis. They (those who you are seemingly talking about) are not apologists, they are the attackers.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
Link to comment
Share on other sites

well I do, and you and I just differ in the perception. And I don´t deem apologist defenders. They are a nuisance and frankly the only defenders of faith are called. I really actually resent the notion that you think I do not know and that apparently should not dislike them. They don´t speak for and a religion that needs to be excused or apologized for ( a lot ) implies that there is a lot of screw up. as for the Greek meaning which you so graciously provide ... I don´t see it that way, I don´t need one, I can stand for it my self perfectly fine. neither do I share or have to share their position either. I maintain, someone who keeps excusing, justifying things or even over and over doesn´t reinforce the position nor does he necessarily speak for me or others.

Again, nothing good comes of it engaging and wasting so much time and effort into this... silence is golden and deeds speak louder because words are wind. As for the attackers, let them. They will see their erroneous ways at the end of days. No need to redirect conviction and effort from where it is actually needed 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Hemisphere said:

First. Apologetics I disapprove of them as much as I do communists and atheists ...

36 minutes ago, Hemisphere said:

silence is golden 

"Defend your beliefs with courtesy and with compassion, but defend them." - Elder Holland
“Every member of the Church ought to know that it [the Book of Mormon] is true, and we ought to be prepared with an answer to all of those critics who condemn it.” - Joseph Fielding Smith
"to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that [we] may be in” (Mosiah 18:9)
“Use boldness, but not overbearance” (Alma 38:11–12)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

by all means. defend them for yourself but do not presume that I need someone for it. 

As for knowing it to be true it is one thing but I don´t believe screaming at the top of my lungs is the way.  my greek ain´t so great so I am gonna stick with latin " Acta, non verba" deeds speak louder and I don´t need youtube jockey souring it up for the rest that do it differently. I believe faith speaks best and loudest by not even dignifying critics with an argument. SImply be christlike. that is all there is to it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Hemisphere said:

They don´t speak for and a religion that needs to be excused or apologized for ( a lot ) implies that there is a lot of screw up.

The problem with this assessment is that i ignores the attacks made every day, by thousands of people who, ignorantly of knowledgeably, nonetheless actively undermine The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. An attack ignored is, in most people's minds, ipso facto, true.

 

1 hour ago, Hemisphere said:

as for the Greek meaning which you so graciously provide ... I don´t see it that way

21 minutes ago, Hemisphere said:

by all means. defend them for yourself but do not presume that I need someone for it. 

You are at perfect liberty to use your own definitions. You cannot expect others to accept them willy-nilly. Whatever you imagine to be the case, apologists are necessary, and, as The Lost Needle shows, they/we are encouraged from the pulpit to undertake this critical work.

Why, one wonders, are the Brethren changing the "Scripture Mastery" program in Seminary to the "Doctrinal Mastery" program to combat the extraneous attacks on the doctrines and practices of, and indeed on, the Church herself.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
Link to comment
Share on other sites

sure, I can go with your statement, if we talk church in the US  and if you ignore that people elsewhere in the church not being part of the american exceptionalism have different challenges which are not made easy with your precious apologists. 

Nobody says anything about accepting them, but you conjecture just because nothing is said that people accept those arguments. in other parts of the world ignoring such a thing has a bigger impact than the usual american ways of handling it. remember that the majority of members do live outside the US and that those apologists neither relate to the rest of us or know whats going on else where, not helping us in the cause. As for the "attacks" you really think the Lord would have given two cents about those clowns ? no, he would proceeded with meaningful tasks. 

So I beg to remind that you people in the US tend to make very American decisions for a "WORLD " wide church, which does neither engender good will nor does it really help. 

Edited by Hemisphere
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Hemisphere said:

if you ignore that people elsewhere in the church not being part of the american exceptionalism have different challenges which are not made easy with your precious apologists. 

You assert several things that are not in evidence here. Chief among them, it seems that you imagine that an unrebutted charge is, by silence, refuted. I've lived in Europe for many years. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I have seen exactly the same response in France, Switzerland, and Italy as in USA: you didn't respond, ergo, you must have no response, and, further, ergo, it must be true.

Just how, exactly, are things made worse OUTUS "with [our] precious apologetics"?

Lehi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Hemisphere said:

As for the "attacks" you really think the Lord would have given two cents about those clowns ?

It's not about what the Lord thinks of them nearly as much as what so many of His children think about them.

There were times, while He lived on earth, where He maintained silence, as in Herod's court. But there were times when He twisted cords into a whip and apologized vehemently.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all, since when did recently an outcry change anything in those corrupt governments lately. Second. I am German. that means I live in the country with largest density of members. Culture wise it differs to great deal. apologists are fanatical market criers that nobody takes serious because their presentation sucks and the arguments are petty. Or if skillful will be dragged down to the level of petulance And again, the church does not just consists of white European and American people. And again, it is pure conjecture that silence is admittance in so many cultures that are not western. In fact, it is actually quite arrogant to believe that things handled in the US or EUrope for that matter are used elsewhere to the same extend. You wanna defend faith, go help the poor and anyone in need of charity to the glory of his grace our Lord, with our deeds we honor him. 

Yeah well, I personally think it should be holiday where we flog bankers. It certainly would do us good. But still an exceptional deed for he did not enter into any other conflicts in violence but with dignified quiet grace. 

I think time is better spent dispersing charity amongst the needy . You wanna defend doctrine, live it and show it and don´t deal with time wasters. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Hemisphere said:

First of all, since when did recently an outcry change anything in those corrupt governments lately. Second. I am German. that means I live in the country with largest density of members. Culture wise it differs to great deal. apologists are fanatical market criers that nobody takes serious because their presentation sucks and the arguments are petty. Or if skillful will be dragged down to the level of petulance And again, the church does not just consists of white European and American people. And again, it is pure conjecture that silence is admittance in so many cultures that are not western. In fact, it is actually quite arrogant to believe that things handled in the US or EUrope for that matter are used elsewhere to the same extend. You wanna defend faith, go help the poor and anyone in need of charity to the glory of his grace our Lord, with our deeds we honor him. 

Yeah well, I personally think it should be holiday where we flog bankers. It certainly would do us good. But still an exceptional deed for he did not enter into any other conflicts in violence but with dignified quiet grace. 

I think time is better spent dispersing charity amongst the needy . You wanna defend doctrine, live it and show it and don´t deal with time wasters. 

 

For someone who feels so strongly against apologetics, you seem to be engaging in it quite vehemently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator
7 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Dietrich Bonhoeffer — 'Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.'

I learned that phase in Catholic school. Always a special one. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Hemisphere said:

since when did recently an outcry change anything in those corrupt governments lately.

We're not talking about governments. We're talking about individuals, individuals who, reading or hearing a charge against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, must take one of three positions: 1) It is false, 2) it is true, 3) I don't care.

Positions 1) and 3) are not problems. But when the hearer takes position 2), there is a big problem. First, he will be unlikely to give the Church a fair hearing, and second, he will very likely spread the lie.

While this is an USAan saying, it is nonetheless true: A lie can go around the world in the time it takes for the truth to put on its pants. So, the person who believes a lie will tell his fifty-seven closest friends the same lie. And they will each tell another fifty-three , and so on, and on, and on.

When I was in France, there was a magazine that told the "truth" about Joseph Smith and his twenty-six wives. It was illustrated with a wood cut of a huge bed with twenty or so women in it, with an empty slot in the middle, right below the carved initials "BY". As my companion and I went from door to door, person after person referred to that article and told us they already knew enough about the Church.

That's why apologetics is so terribly important. There are lies out there, and they are destroying many of God's children.

Lehi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

As my companion and I went from door to door,

Yep, if we stopped apologetics as a Church, we would basically need to recall all those thousands of pesky world-wide missionaries we have out there right now. :huh: 

Edited by NeedleinA
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator
5 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Yep, if we stopped apologetics as a Church, we would basically need to recall all those thousands of pesky world-wide missionaries we have out there right now. :huh: 

@NeedleinA-in your opinion, do you think the missionaries focus more on apologetics or on converting/serving?The two are different, in my view. When I think of apologetics I think of people like Bushman, FairMormon, Michael Ash, Jeff Lindsay, etc.  

That's not an insult to them. Ask anyone who has seen my FB page-I go out with the missionaries all the time, so it's not like I am insulting them. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@NeedleinA-in your opinion, do you think the missionaries focus more on apologetics or on converting/serving?

I won't pretend to speak for all missionaries or all missions around the world since they all vary. Some are super high teaching missions and others are super low. Those who are super low teaching will tend to use their efforts more in converting via "service". Those in super high teaching will naturally have a higher degree of apologetics involved because of the constant questioning from others/investigators. 

My mission (foreign) at the time was extremely busy teaching. We were not on par to the apologist you listed above, but we had to understand "some" stuff. My brother in the states in contrast was constantly bombarded in his mission, and without the common sense skills to "defend the faith" would have been highly ineffective. 

So... I think missionaries focus on converting others via teaching & service, but sometimes need to step into the world of apologetics too. 
I like this quote from FAIR:

Quote

You can never argue a person into faith; Christian theology and apologetics exist in order to make sense of the world for the believer, but they do not in themselves create that belief —Gerald Bray, "Man's Righteousness and God's Salvation," 

Apologetics helps correct or push aside misunderstandings so that the door is open for faith to enter and grow. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@NeedleinA-in your opinion, do you think the missionaries focus more on apologetics or on converting/serving?The two are different, in my view. When I think of apologetics I think of people like Bushman, FairMormon, Michael Ash, Jeff Lindsay, etc.  

That's not an insult to them. Ask anyone who has seen my FB page-I go out with the missionaries all the time, so it's not like I am insulting them.

I see the roles as complementary.  Missionaries can plant seeds and add water, and God provides the sunlight.  But depending on the field you're working in, it might also be necessary to have a few servants who are willing to dig around in the manure for a while; and that's where the apologists--good apologists--come in very handy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator
10 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Apologetics helps correct or push aside misunderstandings so that the door is open for faith to enter and grow. 

Agree, mostly. You need some basis in reason or history and obviously, I think the LDS church has that. Hence why I am LDS. You need reasons why you believe Smith Jr was a prophet. Did any of his prophecies come true? After all, anyone can claim it. Did anyone else see the Golden Plates? What about this or that aspect of church history. 

Again, it should be clear I think Smith Jr was a prophet. These are just some questions someone who wasn't born LDS might have. 

10 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I see the roles as complementary.  Missionaries can plant seeds and add water, and God provides the sunlight.  But depending on the field you're working in, it might also be necessary to have a few servants who are willing to dig around in the manure for a while; and that's where the apologists--good apologists--come in very handy.

Agree as well. It depends on the background of the investigator. Some investigators might need more than just feelings. 

Like I said, my question wasn't an insult to missionaries in the least. 
 

 

Edited by MormonGator
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, mordorbund said:

For someone who feels so strongly against apologetics, you seem to be engaging in it quite vehemently.

I enjoy a healthy argument and it is hard to resist playing devils advocate. As for dietrich Bonhoefer, let me raise the stakes with a better one. "Be wary of the man thst does evil but be frightful of a good man who does nothing"

I would like to invite you to let this sit for a moment and reflect on the difference.

I also would line to add a little anectdote from my family in 1943. 

We had a home stead in Saxony Anhalt. My grandpa had been drafted away from the fighter plane production line and was at the front. My family wirness trains full of people and pretty much by then it was already felt that these people were not coming back. One night a jewish family shows up at our doorstep and begs for refuge. 

As good christians they receive it. It was dangerous to shelter them but it was done anyway. The family wanted to move on but had to leave thibgs behind. Including a jewels case which they asked us to keep for them until the war. Fyi. My family still has it and is waiting.

 

My point being, if he would have done as you lobbied for, they would have found themselves on the very trains. But in doing things in silence, lives could be saved.

As for the missionaries, there is a distinct difference. They, unlike the market criers are called emmissaries which serve the people in the Lords name. 

An argument which will not result agreement can cause contention and from there a conflict and escalate. The Lord hates contention and the causers of it. Apologist arguments seldomly kindles love and often enough caters more to the ego, rather than passing on love as the Lord wants it. 

I would rather a quiet dignified helper. 

And if i want to really miscontrue this hard, one could day yoj lobby for argument while conveying that focusing on charity is secondary to speaking out and quarrel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Hemisphere said:

I am German. that means I live in the country with largest density of members.

Fact check: Since you made a point of bringing it up, Germany is not even the most densely populated in Europe let alone the world.qqqqqqqq.jpg.5c37bf34feb434ed7e38705e58d

LDS World Membership

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Fact check: Since you made a point of bringing it up, Germany is not even the most densely populated in Europe let alone the world.qqqqqqqq.jpg.5c37bf34feb434ed7e38705e58d

LDS World Membership

 

well,  congratulations . you can google. and what point have you proven now, save for the intention of potentially embarassing me (which i am not, to err is human ) because I didnt have my facts straight =) still doesn´t change the fact that church culture is different from what comes out of the US  and may not align with the perceptipns and feelings of members elsewhere. I certainly hope that nobody thinks that everything is so starspangled awesome that people are not allowed to have a different opinion

Edited by Hemisphere
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Heather pinned and unpinned this topic

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share