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17 minutes ago, zil said:

We do teach that God the Father is an exalted human male with a resurrected body of flesh and bone, just as the Lord Jesus Christ is an exalted human male with a resurrected body of flesh and bone. 

Elaboration on the "human" part: meaning they both have bodies and are the same species as us (Christ has a human body, He's not an alien).  That doesn't mean Christ or the Father is a sinner- be believe that they are Perfect and Righteous.  

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5 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

Is it not Mormon belief that scriptures have been corrupted? Please correct me if wrong, that was merely what i was under the impression of.

 

But furthermore, Matthew 16:18 Jesus says 'And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.'

 

I can hardly see how you believe that given that Joseph stated 'All their creeds are an abomination and all their professors are corrupt'.

 

LDS do believe that the Bible has the possibility of containing translation errors. I'll leave it to members to expound.

As to your second verse, I agree it is more relevant to the discussion of the apostasy/restoration doctrine. Again, I'll let members discuss that with you.

As to the last point, I don't believe the phrase you quoted. I'm not LDS. I can tell you from my own discussions here that many members take a much softer understanding of the phrase. We tend to look at "corrupt" as meaning intentionally distorted and even ruined. It's been explained to me that there were mistakes, much like Protestants believe the Catholic church had come into errors that needed reformation, and that it became "corrupt" because it was no longer complete. Again, that's the explanation that's been given to me.  Keep in mind, I am an Assemblies of God prison chaplain, so I can only go so far in explaining what the host church of this site teaches.

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2 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

You *are* able to see the difference in beliefs and theology between Mormonism and Christianity are much greater and more vast in literally every sense then any inter denominational differences with Christendome, right?

Speaking for myself, I understand that for some on the Christian-but-not-Mormon side of the aisle, the gap is massive.  But (FYI) from the Mormon side of that aisle, the same gap is not that big.  I find this a bit fascinating, since we're looking at the same gap.  But that doesn't make the other perspective any less real.

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6 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

Now while I understand youd disagree, I'm sure your aware that Mormons are not looked at by Christendome quite the same as the various denominations are.

Oh, we're extremely aware of how others, Christian or not, view us - good, bad, and otherwise. A great many people seem driven to inform us of it (and often seem to think they're the first to do so, despite the fact that someone's been doing it since before the Church was formally organized).  (NOTE: If there seems to be any negativity in that to you, please note that there's not to me, just stating known fact.)

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4 minutes ago, zil said:

Speaking for myself, I understand that for some on the Christian-but-not-Mormon side of the aisle, the gap is massive.  But (FYI) from the Mormon side of that aisle, the same gap is not that big.  I find this a bit fascinating, since we're looking at the same gap.  But that doesn't make the other perspective any less real.

The doctrines we agree on, and the morals and lifestyles we share are huge. Those teachings we disagree about are likewise significant--bigly so. (Sorry, couldn't resist!) :-)

Edited by prisonchaplain
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8 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

Is it not Mormon belief that scriptures have been corrupted? 

Not really.  More of stressing the fact that scripture wasn't meant to stand alone- like a letter from a dead dude.  Rather, LDS believe that living unchanging God continues to speak and lead His Church.  He guides understanding of His scripture.

8 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

But furthermore, Matthew 16:18 Jesus says 'And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.'

And LDS firmly believe that- the rock being revelation from God, not the arm of the flesh.

8 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

I can hardly see how you believe that given that Joseph stated 'All their creeds are an abomination and all their professors are corrupt'.

The CREEDS.  Not scripture. 

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12 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

Well a Mormon who wants Mormonism to rightly be considered Christian

FWIW, I'm not interested in any consideration other than that of God the Father and Jesus Christ.  If there are certain mortal people on the planet earth who claim to be Christians and insist that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not qualify (in their view) as Christians, well, that's their business and not my concern.

My reply is inline, in bold and blue.

12 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

As far as theology, I'm sure you can understand the differences in believing there was one eternal God always and forever,

Actually, we believe that, just not in the same way you do.

he manifested on Earth as Christ,

We believe Jesus Christ was the Son of the Father, so difference there.

ETA: Actually, you could say we believe this do, depending on which definition of "God" you wish to use.

and that we are all destined to worship him and only him externally for all of existance,

And we believe this too.

and Mormon theology.

Edited by zil
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This is a great place for me to plug a book that an LDS member plugged to me, from this site, years ago:  How Wide the Divide - A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation, by Blomberg & Robinson (1997). The two authors are professors, one from Denver Seminary (Evangelical), the other from BYU. They discuss key doctrines, such as scripture, God's nature, and the meaning and means of salvation. Their dialogue is rigorous, honest, shows great differences, yet manages to remain civil and respectful. The authors agree that there is much that we agree on--more than supposed--but that the differences are substantial. 

Edited by prisonchaplain
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5 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

Well a Mormon who wants Mormonism to rightly be considered Christian really would have to look at the way you do.

@zil is explaining orthodox LDS theology.  We ARE Christians, disciple of Christ (see Acts 11).

5 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

As far as theology, I'm sure you can understand the differences in believing there was one eternal God always and forever, he manifested on Earth as Christ, and that we are all destined to worship him and only him externally for all of existance, and Mormon theology. (Which you likely dont need me to explain)

Everything you said is actually LDS theology.  

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1 minute ago, ChristIsLord said:

My scriptural verse and Joseph Smith qoute was nore reffering to the belief of the Church's restoration.

I'm not sure what you're meaning to say here.

1 minute ago, ChristIsLord said:

Jesus said the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, surely one following Mormon doctrine could not rightly believe that?

Actually we do.  Differently than you, but do very much believe it.  And obviously both of us believe that there have been apostasies throughout time.

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2 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

Jesus said the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, surely one following Mormon doctrine could not rightly believe that?

As far as I can tell, the gates of hell have not prevailed and will not prevail, great apostasy aside.

4 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

If the rock was God's revalation, that still doesent satisfy the fact that by needing a late 1800s restoration, the church would have had formally fallen to the gates of hell.

The Church in Christ's day (and then the Apostles') was built on the rock of revelation.  When it was restored, it was restored and built through revelation.  The gates of hell have not and will not prevail against revelation of the Church of Jesus Christ.  The apostasy does not constitute "the gates of hell prevailing".

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2 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

No, it isn't. There are numerous differences as highlighted above.

Being a Christian is about being a disciple of Christ (that's Acts 11).  It's not about passing a theology test.  And even when it comes to theology in this regard we're actually very similar (I will explain more in second post in a second).

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8 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

No, it isn't.

Dude, you want to cause problems, start telling another person what they believe.  You are not in my heart and mind, I am not in yours.  You can only know what I believe if I tell you what I believe.  If you don't want to believe what I tell you, fine, but that doesn't give you to right to dictate my belief to me.

"I" and "you" above can be replaced with the identifiers for any other two humans.  The only way for one human to know what another human believes is for another human to tell them.

Edited by zil
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(Hitting big picture points) 

Mormons and Athanasian Christians both believe:

The Father is 100% divine.

The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.

The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.

The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end.  None of them is a “creation”.

The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit.

The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God.

 

The difference comes in:

Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.

Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through co-substantiation, as explained in the Athanasian Creed.

 

Does that make sense?  

Edited by Jane_Doe
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7 minutes ago, zil said:

As far as I can tell, the gates of hell have not prevailed and will not prevail, great apostasy aside.

The Church in Christ's day (and then the Apostles') was built on the rock of revelation.  When it was restored, it was restored and built through revelation.  The gates of hell have not and will not prevail against revelation of the Church of Jesus Christ.  The apostasy does not constitute "the gates of hell prevailing".

When traditional Christian ears hear the doctrine of the Great Apostasy, including the belief that the church lost priesthood authority, etc., it sounds to us like the gates of hell prevailed. We wonder at the notion that earth was without a fully-authorized, God-ordained church for well over 1,000 years. If the response is that, well, no such does not constitute the gates of hell prevailing, then we're left to kind of sulk and mumble, "Okay...but it sure feels like it."" Does that make sense?

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2 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

Because your claiming pure falsehoods.

No, we are explaining actual LDS beliefs to you.  We are being 100% truthful.  If you misunderstood something about LDS before, here's your opportunity to learn.

2 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

with thinking God had a God before him

Note: LDS doctrine doesn't say anything about the Father's past.  There are 2 (a whole whopping 2) speculative quotes on the matter, but those are not LDS doctrine cannon.

2 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

 we can become God.

We become ONE WITH God.  Still only ONE God.  Here's a good essay explaining this, and other Christian faith which believe similar things: https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng

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4 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

If I said, me and my wife agree so much, we get along on everything and never argue ever, would that qualify me and her being the same person?

Neither LDS nor Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, or Spirit are the same person.  They are 3 different persons.  1 God.

4 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

You don't believe God is without beginning, you believe he was an exalted man. 

Please don't try to "inform" me what I believe.  It's very offensive.

And yes, LDS *do* believe that God is without a beginning.  Here's a whole bunch of verses on the matter: 

  • eternal God is thy refuge, Deut. 33:27.

  • from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God, Ps. 90:2.

  • established of old: thou art from everlasting, Ps. 93:2.

  • thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end, Ps. 102:27.

  • Lord shall reign for ever, even thy God, Ps. 146:10.

  • lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, Isa. 57:15.

  • thy name is from everlasting, Isa. 63:16.

  • I am the Lord, I change not, Mal. 3:6.

  • I am endless, D&C 19:10.

  • God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, D&C 20:17.

  • Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, D&C 38:1.

  • From eternity to eternity he is the same, D&C 76:4.

  • Eternal God of all other gods, D&C 121:32.

  • Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end, Moses 1:3.

  • Endless and Eternal is my name, Moses 7:35.

4 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

Furthermore, do you not also believe Christ is the literall heavenly offspring of the Father? If so, that is a beginning.

Christ is the Son of God.  Born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, died on the cross for our sins, raised again on the 3rd day, ascended to Heaven, and will return again.

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1 minute ago, ChristIsLord said:

I never claimed you to be misrepresenting LDS theology, the falsehoods lie in claiming it to be the same as Christian theology.

Are you defining "Christian" as a disciple of Christ, as the Bible does?

Or are you defining "Christian" as in a disciple of the Creeds?

LDS do follow the Bible- we love it and Christ.  We don't follow the Creeds.

1 minute ago, ChristIsLord said:

(Though of course their have been errors, such as trying to claim LDS believe Jesus is uncreated)

Just making sure this is clear: LDS do believe that Christ has always existed. 

1 minute ago, ChristIsLord said:

I'm very familiar with concept of Theosis, which is far different from the LDS concept of exaltation.

Did you read the essay I posted?

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10 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

Because your claiming pure falsehoods.

Then there is no point in continuing this conversation.  I am done.

ChristIsLord: You don't believe X.

Zil: Actually, we do believe X.

ChristIsLord: No, you don't.  (In other words, "You're a liar."  Or, "I must assume that you don't understand what your own religion teaches and that I do, so you're wrong.")

You didn't say, "I don't understand this part of why you say that.  Can you help me to understand?"  You didn't say, "Let me explain my definition of X better, because I don't think we're seeing it the same."

No, you waltzed in and claimed ownership of my mind and knowledge and declared me either ignorant or a liar.  It would be fruitless for you to continue conversing with such a person, and since you don't believe me, it would be a waste of my time to continue trying to tell you what my Church teaches.

Perhaps @prisonchaplain or @Jane_Doe are more believable than I am, so I'll leave it to them.

But I'll add a parting warning: If your hope is to convince some Mormon that their Church or teachings are wrong, you've come to the wrong place to attempt to accomplish that goal.  If your hope is to gain understanding of Mormon teachings, fighting against the people trying to explain it to you, telling them they're interpreting scripture wrong, telling them they don't know their own beliefs - instead of asking for clarification, instead of saying, "OK, let's operate on this interpretation, if that's how you read it, then XYZ makes sense, even though I disagree with it personally" - those are the wrong ways to seek understanding.

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So, ChristIsLord, did you by chance read the rules of this place?  You had to agree to them when you signed up...

https://mormonhub.com/forums/announcement/1-mormon-hub-rules-please-be-familiar-with-these-rules-before-posting/

Please pay special attention to 1, 3, and 4.

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5 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

 Your claiming to believe things that don't comport with your scripture or prophets, if you have an issue, then please correct me and show me how my understanding is mistaken. 

 

Merely saying 'Up is down!' and not explaining how that can be serves no purpose.

 

Merely claiming to believe God is eternal doesn't mean you do, and merely claiming you believe in one God doesn't mean you do.

 

We need more then mere claims me friend, if you'd so care, please explain to me how God can be eternal yet an exalted man just for a start.

One matter I have become convinced of is that LDS believe God is eternal. What may be a matter of discussion is whether or not God is mutable. After, there is also the belief that humans have an eternal premortal existence. So, if we are eternal, surely God is. Again, there is much we differ on, but I think it is fair to say that LDS believe God is eternal. Likewise, we disagree on the nature of God's oneness--and the difference is huge. However, Jews and Muslims also struggle with us traditional Christians--arguing that Trinity is not strict monotheism. We strongly disagree, but there it is.

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19 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

 Your claiming to believe things that don't comport with your scripture or prophets, if you have an issue, then please correct me and show me how my understanding is mistaken. 

@ChristIsLord, you are ENTIRELY mistaken about LDS beliefs.  Completely.  

@zil and I are explaining LDS beliefs, and yes they are 100% in line with scriptures and prophets.  *You* are misunderstanding things.  Again, I'm happy to help explain, but please be respectful.  Calling a person a liar quickly burns bridges.  

19 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

Merely claiming to believe God is eternal doesn't mean you do, and merely claiming you believe in one God doesn't mean you do.

Actually it does.  We're telling you the truth.

If you want elaboration, you can ask for it.  Don't call us liars.

19 minutes ago, ChristIsLord said:

We need more then mere claims me friend, if you'd so care, please explain to me how God can be eternal yet an exalted man just for a start.

Again, there isn't any LDS doctrinal statements about the Father's past.  I have stated this repeatedly, as did @zil.  Ignoring answers also burns bridges fast.

Edited by Jane_Doe
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ChristIsLord, reign yourself in and read the rules you agreed to.  We're about to take moderator action on you.  Again, this is a place to learn about our faith from us - we're not interested in hearing about what you think is wrong with it from you.  Again, if you're looking for a debate forum, go give mormondialogue.org a go.  The place is just chock full of mormons ready to hear everything you want to tell them about what we believe.

The people who pay for mormonhub.com are under no obligation to provide you a podium and a captive audience so you can tell us how wrong we are.  Take it somewhere else.  

Edited by NeuroTypical
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1 hour ago, ChristIsLord said:

No, you don't. Two does not equal one. Being a man born of flesh does not equal eternality, and God having a God before him OR Mormons being able to be God's one day does not equal 'One God always and forever'

hrhe8LA.png

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Conversations like this make me sad.  On many levels.  One of which is... I wish people understood that being a Christian is about following Christ: loving Him and fellow men.  Not about following a council of sinners, or that council's product, or refusing to see/hear your fellow man.  I... I'll be praying for certain people tonight.

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