Church re-evaluating Scouting Program


pam
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It would be amazing to see LDS wards actually run scouting like it's supposed to (I'm NCS certified). LDS troops have a notorious reputation for not being very scouting like. I've not only heard it, i've seen it first hand. Scouting is a wonderful tool that can be used to help strengthen the priesthood brethren. 

 

A file that is spent can't sharpen an ax. 

 

The file is the scouting program, it's spent when not used properly or dulled down, The Ax is the Priesthood. Even if the church chooses another tool to figuratively sharpen the ax (e.g. whetstone) It still has to be used right.

 

Scouting helped teach me the reality of spirituality through actions. I gained very little from our young mens activities, which consisted of fun time and a little bit of prearranged service projects, and lectures about spirituality. Thus i'm a big supporter of the Scouting program. I'm surprised that I see so much luke warm support for the scouting program, being that all the skills and program advancement in scouting directly related and address all areas of missionary preparation when done correctly. (Which certainly includes the religious preparation, especially venturing)

That being said I see great possibilities in the recent turn of events if the church were to withdraw from scouting, and since so many members and wards are apathetic or luke warm about the program. It would give the church an opportunity to craft a program (that I think simply because it would be run by the church) that members would show more support for. If this was done I would be excited to be involved and use all of the knowledge, skills, and experience that I have learned through being involved in scouting to help such a program bloom.

In other comments, I strongly suspect the world wide scouting movement was inspired by the lord to help prepare the world for the gospel.

Oh and just something cool! I got to meet an international scout from Jamaica and an international scout from the Dominican Republic!

Edited by Crypto
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CO,

 

I apologize-internet can not communicate sincerity very well, but please accept my apology

 

No hard feelings, Yj.
I wish I had a dozen people who are as passionate about scouting as you are. 
 
IMO-the Bishops primary duty is that he is the leader of the Aaronic Priesthood. The EQ pres. can take care of the Elders, the HP can take care of the high priest, and all the other leaders can take care of themselves. As such, the Bishops #1 priority should be in ensuring that the YM are being lead and taught properly...
 
Couldn't agree with you more!
 
Good luck CO-may God bless you in your search for someone who can fulfill the role that needs done.
 
Thank You!
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The "best person" may actually be someone not actively attending church.  That may be an inactive member that you could activate, or a nonmember.  Go the the Lord and the missionaries and them what you need.  

"Elders, go find us a scout leader."

 

It all sounds good on paper, but in the real world (at least my world) not so much.
 
I live in a small town with two wards. We received permission to combine the scouting program a couple of years ago, so we have two bishops, not one, looking for help in scouting.
Perhaps with the exception of a few people who may have recently moved in and are non-members, I doubt if there is anyone in town that we don't know. I also doubt there is anyone in town who could feasibly help with scouting that hasn't already been approached at one time or another.
So even if we had missionaries (which we don't) it's doubtful they could be much help. 
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Makes me wonder if they will end their relationship with the  BSA and come up with their own program.  But yes...will be interesting to see what they do.

 

Honestly, I hope they do that, and do it well.

 

I feel a definitive stand has to be taken. A line needs to be drawn. And my child will most certainly not participate in a troop that allows a gay Scoutmaster to "watch over" them on camp outs. Trust barrier is broken.

 

And you just know that now gays that want to seduce young men will actively seek to volunteer for leadership positions in the BSA now.

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I feel a definitive stand has to be taken. A line needs to be drawn. And my child will most certainly not participate in a troop that allows a gay Scoutmaster to "watch over" them on camp outs. Trust barrier is broken.

 

 

I agree a change needs to happen, a line needs to be drawn, but the church has a program already in place for the youth we just need to transfer it to the US. Outside of the US they have a young mens program and it does not include scouts.

 

And you just know that now gays that want to seduce young men will actively seek to volunteer for leadership positions in the BSA now.

This is a terrible thing to say.

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This is a terrible thing to say.

 

Yes, it is.  But if that wasn't also the unspoken point of all those gay-rights advocates who kept suggesting that Lord Baden-Powell himself was a closeted gay--

 

--well, what was their point?

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Yes, it is.  But if that wasn't also the unspoken point of all those gay-rights advocates who kept suggesting that Lord Baden-Powell himself was a closeted gay--

 

--well, what was their point?

So all gay men want to entrap young boys? I'm not sure I am understanding the thought process here.

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I'm not sure I am understanding the thought process here.

 

I don't understand it either.  That's why I'm asking--why do all these purportedly enlightened gay rights activists think that Baden-Powell's interest in young men strengthens their insinuations that he was, in fact, gay?

 

As for your suggestion that "all gay men want to entrap young boys"--neither I, nor Magus, have made that assertion.

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So just some gay men want to seduce young boys and now they have a venue to do it in?

 

I didn't read that they were going to stop background checks in the boyscouts

 

Will predators deliberately flock to the BSA?  I don't know.  Have they, in the past, flocked to--say--the clergy?  Or, public education?  Or, the BSA itself?

 

Regardless of how you choose to answer that question, the fact is that--yes--the venue of Scouting is certainly less safe than it used to be.  Consider some common sense: 

 

1.  Background checks only catch the subset of predators who have previously perped, been caught, and been proven guilty in a court of law.

 

2.  Existing BSA youth-protection protocols make sense on paper, but specific requirements (2-deep leadership, separate toilet facilities, etc) can be extremely difficult to maintain on a twenty-four-hour-per-day basis over the course of a multi-day activity.  They could be circumvented with ridiculous ease by an adult leader who had any sort of ill intent.  Youth protection training isn't something that teaches predatory adults not to be predators; it's something that gives the BSA legal cover when the inevitable happens and the outraged parents sue the organization.

 

3.  A straight man who volunteers with the Girl Scouts will meet with some raised eyebrows--he will be permitted to volunteer, but will be subjected to additional scrutiny and additional requirements/restrictions to ensure that he does not pose a threat to the girls.  This is not because the man is presumed to be a pedophile; but because we understand that a straight adult male has a significant chance of being biologically attracted to sexually-mature females who lack the emotional wherewithal to resist any improper advances.  Women who volunteer with the BSA can similarly be subjected to additional requirements to ensure that no improper relationships form between the leaders and the youth.  In either scenario, these potential threats are easily identifiable and additional, appropriate measures beyond the standard youth protection protocols can be imposed.

 

4.  Under the BSA's new resolution--parents aren't even allowed to know if a particular leader is gay; and BSA volunteers or staff who "out" a gay leader to troop members' parents are subject to dismissal from the program.  Imagine sending a heterosexual man to volunteer at a Girls' Camp--but no one there knows he's a heterosexual man.  That's the kind of situation that we now have in the BSA; and we're just supposed to accept it because--I don't know--gay men tend to be more sexually restrained than straights of either gender, or something.

 

Go ahead and tell me there won't be problems.  :rolleyes:

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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So just some gay men want to seduce young boys and now they have a venue to do it in?

 

I didn't read that they were going to stop background checks in the boyscouts

 

There is a phrase missing in our discussion -- "openly gay".  This implies someone who is actively a proponent for this lifestyle, if not an active participant.  An "openly gay" leadership would give this lifestyle legitimacy, something to explore as a life choice.  

 

"Closet gay" is not an issue at all.

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Oh, on at least one other LDS forum, the "we think the Brethren are mostly wrong about everything, always" sect is on a tear about what "openly gay" means. Apparently, all it means is that they're not trying to conceal their same-sex attraction. It doesn't mean they endorse the gay lifestyle or aggrandize anything about it, just that they're not going to go to any effort to hide that particular proclivity.

 

I don't buy it.

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Oh, on at least one other LDS forum, the "we think the Brethren are mostly wrong about everything, always" sect is on a tear about what "openly gay" means. Apparently, all it means is that they're not trying to conceal their same-sex attraction. It doesn't mean they endorse the gay lifestyle or aggrandize anything about it, just that they're not going to go to any effort to hide that particular proclivity.

 

I don't buy it.

How many gay people do you know? or associate with? 

 

I think that a conversation with those individuals will provide you with all the information you need to find out about your assumption. 

 

I happen to know/associate with gay people now and in the past and not once have they tried to aggrandize or endorse their life style. I know some may not want to believe it but they just want to get a long and live life.

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How many gay people do you know? or associate with? 

 

I think that a conversation with those individuals will provide you with all the information you need to find out about your assumption. 

 

I happen to know/associate with gay people now and in the past and not once have they tried to aggrandize or endorse their life style. I know some may not want to believe it but they just want to get a long and live life.

 

I cannot but help wondering how all the "pride" parades and the like fits into your idea here.

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How many gay people do you know? or associate with? 

 

I think that a conversation with those individuals will provide you with all the information you need to find out about your assumption. 

 

And of course, a conversation with a half dozen straight people will tell you everything you could ever need to know about heterosexuality.  Because, obviously, if you don't know any pedophiles of either preference, it can only be because they don't exist.  

 

 

:rolleyes:

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How many gay pride parades have you been to?

 

 I suspect zero, please correct me if I am wrong. 

 

As you well know, I wouldn't be caught dead at one.

 

But I have read the news and articles about them, which include pictures, both of which tells me plenty enough about them to still sufficiently ask the question, which I cannot help but notice that you skirted.

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There are radicals on all ends of the spectrum (think religious right or the uber liberal)

 

, Pride parades (also known as pride marches, pride events, and pride festivals) for the LGBT community are events celebrating lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) culture and pride. The events also at times serve as demonstrations for legal rights such as same-sex marriage. 

 

So they are celebrating their lifestyle choice and lobbying for equal rights not forcing it on people ( A lifestyle choice I happen to disagree with). 

 

So as a group they are not allowed to lobby for what they want or need? Are they not allowed to celebrate their culture? 

 

My point is that in normal everyday life they just want to get along like you and me. They are normal people with normal desires, wants and needs.

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And of course, a conversation with a half dozen straight people will tell you everything you could ever need to know about heterosexuality.  Because, obviously, if you don't know any pedophiles of either preference, it can only be because they don't exist.  

 

 

:rolleyes:

How many gay people do you know? At least I can make an argument from a stand point of actually associating with these persons. Cast your stones if you want.

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How many gay people do you know? At least I can make an argument from a stand point of actually associating with these persons. Cast your stones if you want.

 

Are you really so naive as to assume that no one else knows gay people?

Of course we know and associate with gay people.

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How many gay people do you know? or associate with? 

 

I think that a conversation with those individuals will provide you with all the information you need to find out about your assumption. 

 

I happen to know/associate with gay people now and in the past and not once have they tried to aggrandize or endorse their life style. I know some may not want to believe it but they just want to get a long and live life.

 

Hey Omega,

 

When my female OB left the practice and got replaced by a male OB, I asked him the same question - how would you know about how I feel when you're not a woman?  And my OB said - I'm a doctor.  I don't have to have cancer to be an expert at cancer.

 

Anyway, since you're taking the "only people who know a gay person has a valid argument"... well then, I know a whole bunch of them.  I come from a small town that have a yearly Gay Beauty Pageant.  Lots of openly gay people in my hometown.  And - they're Catholics.  Catholics have the same value system when it comes to same sex relations as LDS.

 

So, let me give you a whole bunch of anecdotal things:

1.)  Gay men become Catholic priests not because they want to become sexual predators.  They become priests because if you can't dedicate your life to a wife and family, then you should dedicate your life to God in the Catholic priesthood.  It is quite stupid to think that a sexual predator would enter the priesthood just so he can have lots of victims.  Being a Catholic Priest is like being a doctor - it takes years and years and years of schooling... and then you take a vow of poverty.

 

But guess what happened - they are constantly in the company of acolytes and choir boys and all these young innocents that it starts to become a daily temptation and a lot of them succumb even with the best of intentions.  Yes, I know a gay priest.  Yes, we found out he was gay because he went and had sex with a deacon.  The deacon is an adult - no child predator thing here.  But, us Catholic students sure had an interesting time trying to reconcile the actions of the priest with the teachings of the church when we've known this priest and has revered him for years as our mentor and spiritual leader.

 

2.)  We had 3 male teachers in high school who are not priests.  2 of them are gay.  One of the gay ones was my coach, the other one was the scout master.  Scouting was a required curriculum in the school for the first 3 years as a preparation for the required Military Training in senior year.  All the kids go on high alert at camp outs.  They take turns watching over the tents and when the scout master comes near, they sound a signal.  This scout master is notorious in the school for luring kids into his tent to solicit favors.  My coach was the coach for a team with 10 boys and 2 girls.  When we go places, we go in a group - if somebody has to go with the coach, he goes with one or both of the girls.  That coach has joined scout camps to assist and he has been caught luring boys into his tent for favors.

 

So you're wondering, why are these people still teaching?  Because... this is the Philippines.  Nobody sues anybody there unless you're willing to sit down and wait for 50 years before the case gets resolved.  What people do is they go get big muscle uncles to either beat the guy up or dump him in the ocean.  But, as these two guys are really, really good teachers, they still teach there.  The new students just learn to protect themselves when the old students pass the "so, this is how you survive this school" info to them.

 

My brother is in the soccer team, if they catch my coach with the soccer team, his head gets flushed down the toilet even if he's the teacher.  They haven't had to do that in the entire 8 years that me and my siblings went through that high school.  But they did flush one of the student's heads in the toilet for trying to feel up a soccer player.

 

Now, remember... these are Catholic gay men.  They know it is sinful, they preach this is sinful.  Yet, when temptation is in the way, they can't help themselves.  How much more for those who don't believe it is sinful?

Edited by anatess
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How many gay pride parades have you been to?

 

 I suspect zero, please correct me if I am wrong. 

 

For me:  One, of sorts.

 

I was in spitting distance of Temple Square (had incidental business downtown) when three thousand gay rights activists descended there because, in the October 2010 general conference, Boyd Packer had the unmitigated gall to suggest that just because someone was gay did not mean that the person was fated to give in to the temptation to have sex.

 

Omegaseamaster, I dare you--I double dare you--nay, I triple-dog-dare you to go to your next local gay pride march with a large sign that says either

 

Sodomy is a sin.  You can find joy in lifelong celibacy.  God loves you!!!

 

or

 

Gays can be happy in straight marriages.  God loves you!!!

 

I bet you won't do it.  And we both know why:  Because, in spite of your suggestions here, gay pride marches are about being accepted for what you do, not who you are.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Are you really so naive as to assume that no one else knows gay people?

Of course we know and associate with gay people.

Saratoga SpringsUtah detailed profile. ... Lesbian couples: 0.1% of all households;Gay men: 0.3% of all households

 

I may be wrong and I am big enough to admit that I am. If you are friends with the 1 lesbian couple or 2 gay couples in your city I apologize

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