Church re-evaluating Scouting Program


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My personal belief as to why missions aren't mandatory for women is because they aren't as bone headed as the men when it comes to spirituality.

Same reason for why women serve 18 months not 24 months.  It takes Elders 24 months to learn what the sisters can in 18 months.

 

Sorry if this seems emasculating, but I've got to be honest.

 

This has little if anything to do with it. Missions are for the purpose of bringing the gospel to the world. It is, as has been stated, a priesthood duty. Learning and growth is a side effect.

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My personal belief as to why missions aren't mandatory for women is because they aren't as bone headed as the men when it comes to spirituality.

 

You need to start doing the Crocodile Dundee check more often, because I'm pretty sure you've never met an actual woman if you think that.

 

With that attitude, you should have your next ex-wife in no time. Good grief, can you stop with the woman hating?

 

While I have no sympathy for women-bashing, in this case I agree with NightSG. Not to say that women are particularly bone-headed, but they're pretty much the equal of men when it comes to sheer stupidity. The idea that women are generally somehow more "spiritual" than men is both condescending and laughable, and the idea that they don't "need" more than 18 months on a mission to learn what it takes the stupid boys 24 months to learn is so absurd that it need only be read to be rejected. I realize that the belief of innate female superiority was common in previous generations of Americans and especially Mormons, but anyone who has grown up in American culture in the last 40 years should be able to identify the absurdity of the proposition.

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 I didn't get a "leveling the field" vibe from that. I got your garden variety "women suck" that comes regularly from 2 or 3 posters here. 

 

But I do agree with you generally, Vort. 

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While I have no sympathy for women-bashing, in this case I agree with NightSG. Not to say that women are particularly bone-headed, but they're pretty much the equal of men when it comes to sheer stupidity. The idea that women are generally somehow more "spiritual" than men is both condescending and laughable, and the idea that they don't "need" more than 18 months on a mission to learn what it takes the stupid boys 24 months to learn is so absurd that it need only be read to be rejected. I realize that the belief of innate female superiority was common in previous generations of Americans and especially Mormons, but anyone who has grown up in American culture in the last 40 years should be able to identify the absurdity of the proposition.

The women I've been around have predominantly been more spiritual, and yes, they are very much indeed women.  It's just my experience and observation.  Men and women both do stupid things, but they are usually different types of things.  I served a mission and I saw the numbers that the sisters achieved.  I also heard their testimonies and they were almost always on a higher spiritual level than the Elders.

 

I do not feel and never have felt that women are superior to men and vise versa.  I do believe there are deeply rooted differences between the genders that are placed by divine design.  There are some things that women are usually better at than men and vise versa.  Why is it so absurd to think that?  Why to girl babies talk and interact with people sooner than boys?  Why do boys babies have far less fear than girls?  

 

Now something else that experience has taught me, as well as 20 years of very happy marriage, is that it is very unwise to publicly state one's views on the weaknesses of women, and you will not see me go there.  

 

Men can usually take a simplistic opinion and brush it off, usually.

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The women I've been around have predominantly been more spiritual, and yes, they are very much indeed women.  It's just my experience and observation.  Men and women both do stupid things, but they are usually different types of things.  I served a mission and I saw the numbers that the sisters achieved.  I also heard their testimonies and they were almost always on a higher spiritual level than the Elders.

 

Women mature faster than men, as I understand it, which would explain the mission thing, and which also goes to indicating that it is not evidence at all of the overall higher spirituality level of women in general. Not that I doubt that it's statistically true. Just that your mission experience does not prove it.

 

As to the statistical thing: It may well be that women, statistically, are more spiritual than men (though that's a bit hard to substantiate), but it also well may be that black men are, statistically, able to jump higher than white men. However, as soon as I engage in assuming that a man can jump high because he is black, I've crossed right over into blatant prejudice. And likewise with women being more spiritual. Therefore, the idea that women (meaning all women) serve shorter because they are spiritually dominant would be like saying blacks (meaning all blacks) on a basketball team do not need to train as long merely because they are black. And that is clearly nonsensical.

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Meanwhile, the SL Trib reports on a recent Utah poll finding that 63% of "very active" Church members in Utah want the Church out of the BSA.

 

Thank you JAG for taking back the wheel.

 

I believe along the same lines.  It's sad because the relationship between the church and BSA has been so good in the past.

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They announced that they're starting the Friends of Scouting drive in our ward soon. I don't know how to feel about that or what to do, honestly. I feel in limbo on the matter. I certainly don't want to donate to scouting to have the church drop it a month later or something.

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They announced that they're starting the Friends of Scouting drive in our ward soon. I don't know how to feel about that or what to do, honestly. I feel in limbo on the matter. I certainly don't want to donate to scouting to have the church drop it a month later or something.

 

Yeah, I went to renew my temple recommend two weeks ago with the bishopric member who is also our COR, and he said our stake had instructed us to put a hold on FoS and wait for a further announcement from the Church.  A couple days later I interviewed with our stake president, who said that the area presidency had overruled him and instructed us to go forward with FoS.

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Friends of Scouting pays the salaries of the professional executives in the council. Not saying that is an unnecessary or frivolous expense, but if you think your FoS donation goes to buying troop equipment or improving campgrounds, you will be sorely disappointed.

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They announced that they're starting the Friends of Scouting drive in our ward soon. I don't know how to feel about that or what to do, honestly. I feel in limbo on the matter. I certainly don't want to donate to scouting to have the church drop it a month later or something.

They wont get anything from me. I stopped donating a couple years ago due to them harassing us for money. Now I have two reasons not to donate.

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They wont get anything from me. I stopped donating a couple years ago due to them harassing us for money. Now I have two reasons not to donate.

Thank you for helping me make my decision. I will be donating to friends of scouting this year.

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Question about FoS: Does each ward/troop have a quota for how much they have to collect? And if they don't meet it, does it have to come out of ward funds?

 

My understanding is that it varies from council to council--some impose quotas (and reward complying troops with preferential rates for scout camps or other goodies), and some don't.

 

I imagine some hard-line, pro-BSA bishops might raid the Relief Society, Elders Quorum, or YW budgets in order to make up a FoS shortfall; but AFAIK it's not common practice at all.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I'm not too smart (well at least I'm smarter than those who went on missions apparently) but how did I help u make up your mind to donate to FOS?

 

Your, frankly, less than stellar attitude about being "harassed" reminded me that I desire, firstly and foremost, to be humble, that all things I have are the Lord's anyway, and that if the authorities are determined to move forward, I will sustain them whether I see it or not.

 

Edit: I suppose I'll lose the like you put on my previous post now. ;) C'est la vie.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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You misspelled "c'est la vie".  We can no longer be friends.

 

I anglicized it. A perfectly acceptable American thing to do.

 

Dang it. And I even took French in college a few semesters.

 

I mean....(edit edit edit....)

 

What are you talking about? It looks correct to me. You quoted me and changed it to make me look the fool! You're right. We can no longer be friends!!

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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I know this is tangential so apologies in advance for that. 

 

But as further proof of what I was saying earlier about Relief Society frivolities: I just received my ward's RS birthday gift. A crocheted "wash cloth" made of lurid yellow acrylic yarn, with such an open weave it would not be useful to clean much of anything. I cannot think of a worthwhile use for it, so I think I will give it to my employer's dog tomorrow. She loves the opportunity to tear things apart and will have a very fun five minutes with it, and then I can throw it away. I should feel badly that someone spent at least a good half-hour making it only for it to be given to a dog. But they can hardly have meant a grown woman to actually use, much less want the thing. Like last years gift (a purple felt "purse" slapdashed together with a bit of glue) it was clearly not made for a woman but for a child. If they want to make such things for Primary kids thats fine, but to give them as birthday gifts, well for a woman without children it's almost insulting. I would have so much more appreciated a kind note or card, nothing else is necessary. But if they are going to spend the time and effort, it would be nice if they would do so with an actual adult in mind. I hate when the church wastes money on stuff like this. 

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Your, frankly, less than stellar attitude about being "harassed" reminded me that I desire, firstly and foremost, to be humble, that all things I have are the Lord's anyway, and that if the authorities are determined to move forward, I will sustain them whether I see it or not.

Edit: I suppose I'll lose the like you put on my previous post now. ;) C'est la vie.

I “liked” your post because it was senseless… funny I guess. Sorry for not having a "Stellar" attitude. I wont be having a "Fabulous" attitude about it either.

Anyway- I already wasn’t donating to FOS for a couple years now because I refuse to give to an organization that totally and completely overlooks the lying, cheating and overall fake scouting program that is many LDS troops in my area to include my own. I can’t speak for any that I have not personally been in, but the last three and our Stake for sure are not even trying to do scouts right, yet we still churn out more eagles than the traditional troops could ever dream of. Our stake life to eagle guys let some of these kids do some seriously weak Eagle projects. We do not enforce the standard hardly at all and in many cases give away this highly sought after recognition.

Additionally, a few years ago during the national recession our stake recalled most of our ward’s budgets and essentially told us no more camping and no more spending for the rest of the year. That being said, none of my scouts could advance because they were not allowed to go on campouts (even ones I offered to finance out of my own pocket). This was about in the March/ April timeframe. In the fall, our district was tasked with sponsoring the district camporee which believe it or not cost some $$. Of course our stake coughed it up so we could go play, but they were not interested in paying for activities that actually contributed to the advancement of the kids…..wouldn’t even let me pay for their campouts.

The camporee had several events, but in order to win ANY of the awards the troop had to be physically present (on Sunday morning) in order to get a trophy. This was calculated to exclude the LDS troops because they knew we would be home ironing our white shirts and going to church. They so openly disrespected us (rightfully so I might add) with this action. Obviously our troops didn’t stay into Sunday and got nothing for their efforts.

We LDS made a big deal out of living our religion as far as the Sabbath goes and we were punished by the traditional troop sponsors by withholding awards. They openly spit in the face of our Scouts due to our religious beliefs and no there were no events on the Sunday other than a campsite inspection. This was supported by our council by the sheer fact it happened. I am 100% positive this event was not approved without our council CEO reading the details.

Now we were punished for sticking by our beliefs and they still wanted money out of us. Our ward was having none of it and donations were few and far between. I was asked a few times, had a slip mailed to my house and each time I returned them with a $0.00 on it. I was finally cornered at Elders Quorum and handed a slip. I said “no thanks and If you ask one more time I’ll never donate again as long as I live.” He handed it to me again, I tore it in half and stuck it in his front shirt pocket. I have not been asked in two years now to donate and interestingly the council hasn’t mailed me a slip either. They used to mail at least three every collection season till I responded with $$ which I used to do.

If the CEO is going to collect a $295K per year salary (According to 2013 IRS form 990- see link below) and allow us to be treated like that I’m surely not going to donate. The adult gay leader thing isn’t making it any better.

Perhaps you now see why I don’t donate. I’m sick of the corruption and the open disrespect to the church and our kids…..and despite that, many of you will keep sending them money. Not me.

I sound bitter eh??? You bet

http://207.153.189.83/EINS/860101295/860101295_2013_0aae9e27.PDF

Edited by paracaidista508
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Guest LiterateParakeet

 

But as further proof of what I was saying earlier about Relief Society frivolities: I just received my ward's RS birthday gift. A crocheted "wash cloth" made of lurid yellow acrylic yarn, with such an open weave it would not be useful to clean much of anything. I cannot think of a worthwhile use for it, so I think I will give it to my employer's dog tomorrow. She loves the opportunity to tear things apart and will have a very fun five minutes with it, and then I can throw it away. I should feel badly that someone spent at least a good half-hour making it only for it to be given to a dog. But they can hardly have meant a grown woman to actually use, much less want the thing. 

 

THIS is why I don't knit for other people.  I joke with my daughter that I am a "selfish knitter", but really it is because I don't want to waste my time on people who don't appreciate hand work.  

 

Have you considered that maybe the person who made it is relatively NEW at crocheting?  And that was the best she could do at this point.  If she's new, it likely took her well over an hour.  I've been crocheting for years and it takes me about an hour to make those things.  Maybe the sister who made it is elderly with arthritis and it is the best she can do, but she wants to serve.  

 

There is so much more I want to say, but I'll just bite my tongue. 

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I'm sure it took a lot of someone's time and resources. That's my point, its a nice thing if one sister wants to do it for another just on her own.. but for the RS Presidency to make and give these out to every sister (presumably) in the ward is a huge waste of resources. Because it wasn't made for an adult, that much is very clear just looking at it. Handwritten notes might not have been any easier on arthritic hands, but at least the sisters would know that the gift was meant for THEM and not any children that may or may not live in their home. 

 

Edit: I should add that when I was first opening the bag it came in I thought it might have been a short scarf. I don't wear yellow very often but I absolutely would have used it. I do not dislike the item because it is hand made, I dislike it (and the principle behind it) only because it is of no value to me, and I doubt many sisters in the ward would feel differently. No one likes to get a gift that is clearly meant to be immediately re-gifted to someone else.

Edited by char713
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