Church re-evaluating Scouting Program

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Perhaps next year you could just tell them, "I don't want your stupid gift."   

 

I can't understand why you think a dish cloth is for a child, but whatever.  Sorry i just can't fathom why this bothers you so much.  I guess we all have our "pet peeves." 

[char713]

It bothers me because there are other programs that sometimes struggle to get the budget together to do necessary things. I would so much rather the funds (however small) that went into this gift be donated instead to... well.. anything else that actually benefits the ward somehow. And it bothers me because it reflects the priorities of the RS presidency. The children.. always always the children, no matter what the needs of the sisters actually are or appear to be. I am not welcome amongst several of the sisters in the RS because, to their mind, I have decided selfishly to not have children and yet still have the utter nerve to offer comments in RS lessons about motherhood.

 

I call the gift a wash cloth, but it could also be a doll's quilt. The color and design (a large floppy daisy tied to one corner) could not be mistaken for something for a grown up. I understand it must be difficult to come up with a gift idea that can be mass-produced and that would be of value to most sisters. A handwritten, thoughtful note ought to be more than enough for anyone, regardless of age or situation. It is a pet peeve of mine that women might either expect or ask for more than that from their ward leaders. 

Edited August 20, 2015 by char713

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I understand your position better now. I'll have to agree to disagree though. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

[Crypto]

I sound bitter eh??? You bet

It's not exactly uncommon to hear unkind things said about LDS scout troops from heavily involved scouters. Though I think it would be more uncommon if lds troops showed a little more scouting spirit.

I can say that my stake schedules a week where all the scout troops go to scout camp, and a fair amount of them go to the local camp. The camp rescheduled opening campfire to accommodate the large amount of LDS scouts that were coming to camp that week. Which is really nice.

[Capitalist_Oinker]

Question about FoS: Does each ward/troop have a quota for how much they have to collect? And if they don't meet it, does it have to come out of ward funds?

 

At one time, Church sponsored BSA units did have a quota (although there were never any repercussions if the quotas weren't met), but for whatever reason the Church ended the practice a number of years ago. 

[Capitalist_Oinker]

I imagine some hard-line, pro-BSA bishops might raid the Relief Society, Elders Quorum, or YW budgets in order to make up a FoS shortfall; but AFAIK it's not common practice at all.

 

Any bishop who did this would face a serious interview with his Stake President. Ward funds are NOT allowed to be used for FOS.

[Guest]

Some people just really do not appreciate the time and love that gotta into a handmade gift. I don't get it, but I've learned so the hard way.

Even so, I don't understand getting so angry because you don't like something someone gave you, suggesting it should be mutilated by a dog, and then holding on to that anger. A gift should be appreciated if only for the effort made to reach out. I've gotten gifts I wasn't nuts about. Say thank you and be thankful you were remembered. We are not entitled to things we like, especially things being given to us.

You don't know if the church shelled out a few bucks for yarn or if someone donated it or what. Doesn't matter, the bishop is the one with stewardship over that money, anyway.

[NightSG]

Our stake life to eagle guys let some of these kids do some seriously weak Eagle projects. We do not enforce the standard hardly at all and in many cases give away this highly sought after recognition.

 

Growing up, it was pretty rare for an Eagle project in the regular troops to fail to make the paper.  Often front page.  Not because they were Eagle projects, but because they were major undertakings for the benefit of the community; replacing a dozen rotted wooden benches in the park with steel ones cemented in, tearing out and replacing water damaged ceilings and walls in the senior citizens' center, cleaning up flood debris and repainting historic buildings at the local museum, clearing and graveling a new trail along the river, that sort of thing.  I don't recall ever seeing the local ward's service projects written up in the paper, and worse, asking around, I could only find one person who remembered what any of them were over the last several years, and that's only because he was the scoutmaster for a couple of them.

 

The other troops' projects were usually also written up before they happened as a means of getting more volunteers to help out with the project; remember that the goal of the service project is to demonstrate planning and leadership ability, and leadership would include the ability to get a group of strangers coordinated toward a common goal, not just developing a plan with the scoutmaster and letting him tell the rest of the Scouts and maybe a few of their parents what to do.

[paracaidista508]

It's not exactly uncommon to hear unkind things said about LDS scout troops from heavily involved scouters. Though I think it would be more uncommon if lds troops showed a little more scouting spirit.

I can say that my stake schedules a week where all the scout troops go to scout camp, and a fair amount of them go to the local camp. The camp rescheduled opening campfire to accommodate the large amount of LDS scouts that were coming to camp that week. Which is really nice.

This brings up yet another reason why LDS should get out of the scouting business or at least quit donating to FOS:

We (our stake) are sponsoring our own week-long camps at least every other year now. Not only does this facilitate the cakewalk what is meritbadge classes, but we are also not using the BSA Scoutcamps which are staffed by paid staff who get their paycheck from....guess where? Yep FOS. Also the camp facilities are paid for with funds from FOS. 

Essentially what we have here is the mormons paying for the traditional troops to use BSA camps and their staffs and we go and run our own camp and pay for that too. Stupid way to operate if you ask me. What happened to the "Thrifty" part of the Scout Law?

 

Pretty stupid way to finance a program. We should be going to the BSA camps not our own. Why pay for other kids to go to camp and then get beat over the head again to pay for our own separate but equal camp???

[paracaidista508]

At one time, Church sponsored BSA units did have a quota (although there were never any repercussions if the quotas weren't met), but for whatever reason the Church ended the practice a number of years ago. 

We had a quota last year....we were told in Priesthood mtg our ward was expected to pony up $2200. No a lot of money, but no one cares about scouts in our ward so it was a serious undertaking to get the needed donations and my ward has lots of six-figure earners in it.

I think the SPs tell the Bishops this, but also tell them not to tell the ward.

We got hit with this every sunday for a month. One of the counselors said they were gonna keep asking until the goal was met or exceeded. Drives me nuts.

[char713]

I'm frustrated about it because the RS budget has been used as reason or excuse for why the young women's budget is less than the young men's. I'm saying if this is the kind of thing - meaning anything that is well intentioned but actually of very little practical or spiritual use - that the RS budget goes toward, then I'd rather we have less of a budget than the priesthood quorums do. I have been in the RS for 11 years, 9 of them fully, dutifully active at every meeting... And I have never felt that the budget difference between YW and RS has been a beneficial one. Except for when it pays for facilities and charitable things such as meals for ailing sisters, and whatever resources are necessary for the presidency to do all that is required of them. The rest just feels like a waste. Even more so when the item(s) themselves reflect just how little the sisters know or understand one another.

[The Folk Prophet]

My elder's quorum has had a budget of about $20 a year for as long as I've been in the ward. So far it hasn't had any bearing on anyone's eternal salvation that I'm aware of.

[Guest]

I'm frustrated about it because the RS budget has been used as reason or excuse for why the young women's budget is less than the young men's. I'm saying if this is the kind of thing - meaning anything that is well intentioned but actually of very little practical or spiritual use - that the RS budget goes toward, then I'd rather we have less of a budget than the priesthood quorums do. I have been in the RS for 11 years, 9 of them fully, dutifully active at every meeting... And I have never felt that the budget difference between YW and RS has been a beneficial one. Except for when it pays for facilities and charitable things such as meals for ailing sisters, and whatever resources are necessary for the presidency to do all that is required of them. The rest just feels like a waste. Even more so when the item(s) themselves reflect just how little the sisters know or understand one another.

 

This is so me, me, me disguised as a concern for the RS budget, it's disgusting.

[yjacket]

Growing up, it was pretty rare for an Eagle project in the regular troops to fail to make the paper.  Often front page.  Not because they were Eagle projects, but because they were major undertakings for the benefit of the community; replacing a dozen rotted wooden benches in the park with steel ones cemented in, tearing out and replacing water damaged ceilings and walls in the senior citizens' center, cleaning up flood debris and repainting historic buildings at the local museum, clearing and graveling a new trail along the river, that sort of thing.  I don't recall ever seeing the local ward's service projects written up in the paper, and worse, asking around, I could only find one person who remembered what any of them were over the last several years, and that's only because he was the scoutmaster for a couple of them.

 

The other troops' projects were usually also written up before they happened as a means of getting more volunteers to help out with the project; remember that the goal of the service project is to demonstrate planning and leadership ability, and leadership would include the ability to get a group of strangers coordinated toward a common goal, not just developing a plan with the scoutmaster and letting him tell the rest of the Scouts and maybe a few of their parents what to do.

This +10.

 

My first proposal failed my districts review.

 

It was pretty satisfying over the 4th I went back to the place where I did my Eagle Scout project (consisted of cleaning up and building a campsite for a local county natural reserve area).  It was pretty satisfying and cool to see parts of my old project still being used 20 years later.  

 

When people complain about merit badge clinics that just push scouts through, what they really are complaining about is our modern child-centered no one is a loser, everyone is a winner mentality. The program isn't designed that way-but due to a change in modern culture it is implemented that way.

[Just_A_Guy]

Some people just really do not appreciate the time and love that gotta into a handmade gift. I don't get it, but I've learned so the hard way.

Even so, I don't understand getting so angry because you don't like something someone gave you, suggesting it should be mutilated by a dog, and then holding on to that anger. A gift should be appreciated if only for the effort made to reach out. I've gotten gifts I wasn't nuts about. Say thank you and be thankful you were remembered. We are not entitled to things we like, especially things being given to us.

You don't know if the church shelled out a few bucks for yarn or if someone donated it or what. Doesn't matter, the bishop is the one with stewardship over that money, anyway.

 

 

This is so me, me, me disguised as a concern for the RS budget, it's disgusting.

 

I don't think Char is kvetching because she didn't get something "nicer" or because she wants more money allocated to her particular needs or pet programs.  Rather, I think her point is just that an awful lot of time and energy (and, maybe, money) went into producing something that, in spite of all the underlying good intentions, just wasn't terribly useful; and wouldn't it be great if we could preserve those intentions while re-allocating the resources into something that was really useful?

 

I totally get the "making that call is the prerogative of the duly called and ordained leaders, not us as individuals" argument (having made it on more than one occasion myself!), but for some inarticulable reason it's a little hard for me to get terribly worked up about Char's observations in this regard.

[Guest]

I guess I think that someone probably feels really good about contributing by making something THEY see as beautiful and useful for the RS to give to sisters in the ward. Sometimes people feeling like they're a part of something good is more important than fussing over a few dollar spent on yarn, you know? 

[Guest]

I don't think Char is kvetching because she didn't get something "nicer" or because she wants more money allocated to her particular needs or pet programs.  Rather, I think her point is just that an awful lot of time and energy (and, maybe, money) went into producing something that, in spite of all the underlying good intentions, just wasn't terribly useful; and wouldn't it be great if we could preserve those intentions while re-allocating the resources into something that was really useful?

 

I totally get the "making that call is the prerogative of the duly called and ordained leaders, not us as individuals" argument (having made it on more than one occasion myself!), but for some inarticulable reason it's a little hard for me to get terribly worked up about Char's observations in this regard.

 

Nice try JAG.

[Just_A_Guy]

My first proposal failed my districts review.

 

It was pretty satisfying over the 4th I went back to the place where I did my Eagle Scout project (consisted of cleaning up and building a campsite for a local county natural reserve area).  It was pretty satisfying and cool to see parts of my old project still being used 20 years later. 

 

When I was going through we had a new-ish church building with a big empty lot back behind.  Our scoutmaster was also the facilities manager, and a number of Eagle projects from our ward involved developing that lot into a recreational area--baseball diamond with backstop, bleachers, horseshoe pits, volleyball court, benches, masonry barbecue, eating area/pavilion, grill, and (mine) a firepit on a concrete slab.

 

In hindsight, I kind of wonder whether an Eagle project counts as "community service" if it primarily benefits the chartering organization. 

 

Oh, well . . .

[NightSG]

When people complain about merit badge clinics that just push scouts through, what they really are complaining about is our modern child-centered no one is a loser, everyone is a winner mentality. The program isn't designed that way-but due to a change in modern culture it is implemented that way.

 

Our clinics were 2-4 Saturdays, usually over the summer, and you were expected to use the intervening weeks to take care of the requirements that couldn't be done in the classroom.  Generally, unless you worked your butt off, you could expect to get 2-3 badges out of 4-6 classes.  Every now and then someone would max out the schedule, stay on task and actually get six in a shot, but it was maybe 2-3 Scouts a year out of 50 or more taking the clinic.

 

In hindsight, I kind of wonder whether an Eagle project counts as "community service" if it primarily benefits the chartering organization. 

 

That does sort of defeat the purpose.  It also makes the system look more pathetic that that was several projects.  One, sure, (assuming we're stretching the definition of "community" to mean "just us") maybe two if done in phases, but Eagle service projects are meant to be major undertakings, not little weekend tasks.  It also sounds like the planning was done by the adults, so I'd have to say it's a major fail on multiple counts.

[yjacket]

Our clinics were 2-4 Saturdays, usually over the summer, and you were expected to use the intervening weeks to take care of the requirements that couldn't be done in the classroom.  Generally, unless you worked your butt off, you could expect to get 2-3 badges out of 4-6 classes.  Every now and then someone would max out the schedule, stay on task and actually get six in a shot, but it was maybe 2-3 Scouts a year out of 50 or more taking the clinic.

 

I agree, I remember something similar; even at the summer week long camps if you really pushed you might get 5 (but that was really working your tail), most got 2-3 for a week long summer camp. 

[Just_A_Guy]

That does sort of defeat the purpose.  It also makes the system look more pathetic that that was several projects.  One, sure, (assuming we're stretching the definition of "community" to mean "just us") maybe two if done in phases, but Eagle service projects are meant to be major undertakings, not little weekend tasks.  It also sounds like the planning was done by the adults, so I'd have to say it's a major fail on multiple counts.

FWIW, most of the projects were actually (to a teenager) a pretty decent amount of work (my firepit sits on a slab that took 3.5 yards of concrete to make; and there was a lot of site prep work, procuring equipment and material from donors/lenders, and that sort of thing).

But, y'all are making me wonder what a "normal" eagle project *should* involve.

[NightSG]

But, y'all are making me wonder what a "normal" eagle project *should* involve.

It's not so much the amount of work done; the Eagle service project is supposed to be a practical application of the decision making and leadership skills that an Eagle should have been developing as a Star and then Life Scout. Having projects assigned for the benefit of the sponsoring organization takes away even the first element of decision making and makes it clear that the Scout won't really be doing the leading either.

[Just_A_Guy]

It's not so much the amount of work done; the Eagle service project is supposed to be a practical application of the decision making and leadership skills that an Eagle should have been developing as a Star and then Life Scout. Having projects assigned for the benefit of the sponsoring organization takes away even the first element of decision making and makes it clear that the Scout won't really be doing the leading either.

 

Well . . . from the leadership (as opposed to the community) angle--I suppose it depends on how it's done.  It's one thing to have a scoutmaster say "we need these projects done, so here's what you're going to do, and I'll make the calls and all you need to do is show up with your mommy and a camera".  But, it's another thing to just have the scoutmaster say "hey, by the way, when you're looking for a project we need to have x, y, and z done at the church, and if you're interested let me know"; and then the boy takes the initiative from there.  

 

Any entity that wants a project done, is going to have particular specifications as to how that project is supposed to be executed and what the finished project is going to look like.  IMHO the problem with eagle projects benefiting the chartering org isn't that the boy's not learning how to lead, plan, supervise and execute; it's that it risks leading the scout to turn inwards and focus on his existing social circle rather than looking outwards and becoming an involved member of the larger community.

[Guest]

I guess we must be one of those weird areas that do scouts right.

For one Eagle project, a kid in our ward organized the YM to go to an Oregon Trail area out in the desert to put out new mile markers. They were essentially big fence posts. He had to make them in advance, figure out how to get them there, get the boys doing what they were supposed to do. I don't know how much prep work it took, but I do know those boys worked hard all day to get the posts installed. 

[hagoth]

How many gay people do you know? or associate with? 

 

I think that a conversation with those individuals will provide you with all the information you need to find out about your assumption.

(I know your post wasn't intended for me...but...)

 

I don't get out much.

 

But my wife has worked with one gay man for years that is one of the kindest people I have had the privilege to meet. He has always been very good and gracious to her, and it always brings a smile to my face to see him and shake his hand. He was even kind enough to invite us to attend a party or two at his home. Her boss, if I recall correctly, is also gay. He is extremely good and kind to her, and regularly takes time to go out to dinner together with her and one of her girlfriends.

 

I also taught a gay man on my mission a number of times, who was extremely good to us.

 

Not one of them attempted "to aggrandize or endorse their lifestyle." 

 

All three of those men are the kind of people omegasemaster describes.

 

Those are the only three gay people I can recall being anywhere near my circle of influence, so with a sampling that small, I would have no way of knowing how common that happens to be. But I one day wish to be as kind and caring as any one of those three.

 

If any confuse this post with an endorsement of a lifestyle, or a rejection of the proclamation on the family, it is neither, (nor is it somehow to be confused an endorsement of other, more common human failings which we all occasionally fall into, such as ingratitude, pride, selfishness, etc.)

Edited August 21, 2015 by hagoth