Church re-evaluating Scouting Program


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Why doesn't scouting include more scrapbooking, styling hair, and painting birdhouses ? It's really not fair. Boys should be able to do those things too!

 

Thanks for that. Clearly my meaning has been entirely misunderstood. 

 

As I said before, if boys and girls are being prepared for equally important future roles, then why is a program that focuses on practicality good only for the boys - a program that has so many worthy requirements that there is no wiggle room to fit in frivolities if leaders are doing their job? Or, on the other hand, why is a program that focuses (or should focus) almost exclusively on spiritual things mainly for the girls? If the Duty to God program is not good enough to fully take over (after adaptations for primary-age boys) then why not? And why is it okay that a similar program (Personal Progress) is all that is expected of their female counterparts? I know that girls and boys are different, and my views about gender roles are actually more traditional than most of the LDS women my same age that I know. But when you compare the YM/YW programs, one group is being prepared with a lot of great spiritual lessons and some crafting/beauty/dating frivolities while the other is being prepared with a lot of great spiritual lessons AND some truly life-building skills that are not only handy and neat to impress girls with, but that are also marketable and maybe even impressive to put on a resume? Don't just tell me that that's what boys need and girls' needs are different. No girl I know NEEDS to know how to scrapbook or make cute object lesson handouts, for any aspect of future life. No RS sister NEEDS activities that are devoted to mani/pedis and tying poly-fleece blankets. There are much better things we can and should be doing, just because some sisters enjoy, perhaps even demand frivolities over substance ought not make any difference. The young men I know would rather play basketball in the gym than almost anything else at mutual, but that "need" does not define the bulk of their yearly activities.

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Why doesn't scouting include more scrapbooking, styling hair, and painting birdhouses ? It's really not fair. Boys should be able to do those things too!

 What's wrong with a man doing that? I like painting birdhouses. I like scrapbooking too. Oh no! 

 

My hair is long and I style it different ways. I grew a mohawk, now it's down to my mid back. Ive also dyed it several times. Green once. That was awesome. 

 

Edited by MormonGator
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Tonight we are doing yard work for a couple in our ward who need help. Last week, we did a game show with questions from For Strength of Youth. The week before that, a combined, rotating sports night with the YM. Next weekend we're doing our annual woodcutting trip with the YM. Last year we cut, split, and stacked 12 cords of wood for widows in our ward that use it to heat their homes in the winter. Usually we whitewater raft after, but we don't have time this year. 

 

Never scrapbooking. No cutesy handouts. We did make some stuff for our local childrens' hospital at camp.

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Eowyn, I guess that is part of my point. The BSA/Duty to God programs keep the boys (and their leaders) so busy and provide such an enormous to-do list that while they may make time for something light and fun and not merit-badge worthy, they actually do have to make time for it. The YW program, on the other hand, allows for so much wiggle-room for leaders to adapt activities to the wants and needs of their class groups. This is great for some groups, the kind that would keep on doing the best things no matter what the curriculum called for. But if you have (as I did as a YW, and as my sister does now as Mia Maid advisor in her ward) a majority of girls in the class who consistently ask for such impractical things as I mentioned.. it is like pulling teeth to get them to attend and participate in much else. 

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my wife does all the work on cars and the handiwork around the house. I can't life a hammer. I do the dishes, cleaning and laundry. So gender roles aren't a big deal. It's 2015. 

It would be a good thing to teach our boys how to cook, clean, etc. and our girls how to work with tools. It would increase self reliance.   

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my wife does all the work on cars and the handiwork around the house. I can't life a hammer. I do the dishes, cleaning and laundry. So gender roles aren't a big deal. It's 2015. 

It would be a good thing to teach our boys how to cook, clean, etc. and our girls how to work with tools. It would increase self reliance.   

 

You are wrong about gender roles; for some people it isn't an issue but try building a society where roles are unclear-big problems. I agree boys and girls should cross-train-it makes perfect sense; but for society to continue gender roles should be taught and emphasized. To argue otherwise would be to go against The Proclamation on the Family.

 

I also really hate how in the modern age, people bring up the year as if it is supposed to mean something.  Okay it is 2015- and if you think society as a whole is better off today than 75 years ago-well I've got a bridge in brooklyn.  Yes it is 2015 and just maybe if we look at our society and don't like what it has become from a morality standpoint, just maybe we ought to go back to the teachings when it was actually moral . . .but you're right it is 2015 and everyone knows that 2015 is bigger than 1950s and bigger is better!

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"Haven't been very involved in scouts", you say??

Well, let's see.

I crunched the numbers and (not counting actually BEING a scout) I have been involved in scouting for almost 30 years. I have served as a scoutmaster, cubmaster, multiple merit badge counselors, unit commissioner; and COR for the past 14+ years.

I have received the Second Miler Award and the District Award of Merit, along with a couple of honor awards. I've also been through almost all of the BSE training including Wood Badge.

Contrary to your assertion, I've "been involved in scouts".

 

As far as making the claim that "the Church has a program ready to go that will replace BSA", I never made it. But (with the exception of cubscouts) I do believe the void CAN be filled by the current YM program.

 

As for this...

 

"One of the really excellent things about scouting is that it gives boys challenging goals to achieve.  It was one of the last vestiges of the "not everyone is a winner" mentality.  Not every LDS boy got to be an Eagle-it had hard measurable objects that had specific goals in mind."

 

...your experience with scouting is a far cry from mine. While this may be the ideal, it’s hardly reality; at least it isn't in all of the LDS sponsored units that I'm familiar with.

 

I won't question your expertise with community based scouting because I have no experience with it. But with few exceptions, LDS scouts are pretty much either dragged or hand-held through the program. NightSG's post is spot on. The advancement requirements are watered down or flat out ignored, and any scout leader who insisted on strict adherence would be run out of scouting on a rail. I was the ONLY merit badge counselor in the district for backpacking and wilderness survival for quite a few years, and yet I saw numerous boys receive those awards who had never even spoken with me. I once questioned the district commissioner about this and was advised to "not rock the boat". At one time I flat out refused to sit on any more board of reviews because they had become what I called a "conveyor belt operation".

 

The LDS/BSA culture is what it is, and isn't going to change.

Whatever BSA "was about" in the past, is beside the point. We deal with the here-and-now, and I maintain that it's time to leave and we can survive and even thrive without it.

 

CO, I don't believe I was specifically referencing you with the "Church has a program ready to go" it is something I have seen thrown around. That is awesome that you have been involved in scouts for so long. Good for you for sticking up; me I would have sat on the BORs and turned the kids down. I grew up in Church scouts and my experience was awesome, there was no conveyor belt, the district was hard nosed, it was very challenging and very worth-while.

 

You are expressing fault with those who have implemented the program, not the program itself. If the fault of implementation of "converyor belt" lies (which it does) with the local scout troops and districts, how is that going to change with a different program?  Because the fault isn't the program, it's the people.

 

You believe it can be filled by the YM program, when locally your area hasn't implemented the BSA program properly. It is a logical fallacy. Sure it can work for you if you give up all the requirements, achievements, metrics, etc. simply because you were never implementing them in the first place.

 

What your comment to me is a bunch of complaining that we never implemented the program properly locally therefore we can implement a replacement program properly. Which is a logical fallacy. 

 

People make complaints about the "bureaucracy" of scouts. The bureaucracy of scouts isn't inherently, onerous, it is onerous because local leaders do not implement the program. I honestly don't see what is so hard about understanding this. When I grew up, my local ward actually implemented the program properly-the leaders they selected for Scoutmaster, etc. where passionate and committed and ended up being in those same callings for over 14 years! the same calling.

 

The problem of BSA and LDS isn't that BSA doesn't work for the Church-it does I've seen it. It's that the members of the church and parents who refuse to understand the program. Parents of boys in the church treat BSA like a drop-off program. I (as a parent) don't have to do anything, so I'll just drop my kids off on Wed. or when they go to camp-outs and that is it-that's all I have to do. We "call" parents to be on the Executive Committee or to be the Secretary or whatever part. Members have grown so accustomed to being "called" that they don't step up where needed (well the Bishop or Scoutmaster, etc. will just "call" someone).  

 

Community scouts . . .oh my goodness, the parents knock the socks of LDS scouts. Parents are actually involved, they step up and volunteer for positions that the troop says are open-so you get people who actually want to do the job vs. being "called".

 

It's not that the church or bsa don't fit, it's that members simply do not step up to the plate for the program and people are put into the program that are a bad fit.  Shoot, I've been called as Executive Committee Chair when I had 2 children under the age of 5 . . .yeap that's a real good fit.  I did it because I was called it was my duty, did I do it with passion-no. Now call me to that position when my son is 11 and it's a different story.

 

And for a "new" YM program that culture isn't going to change- what will change is that the program will be substantially different-it won't be able to replace or be better than BSA-it will simply be a different program. Because if the Church tries to replace a program like BSA on it's own-it will have the same problems as today.

 

You say you have a great YM program right now and you don't need BSA, absolutely-but if you look hard and compare what you have to BSA (what it actually looks like when it is run well-which other churches actually do you will find the two are like comparing apples and oranges. 

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No RS sister NEEDS activities that are devoted to mani/pedis and tying poly-fleece blankets. There are much better things we can and should be doing, just because some sisters enjoy, perhaps even demand frivolities over substance ought not make any difference. The young men I know would rather play basketball in the gym than almost anything else at mutual, but that "need" does not define the bulk of their yearly activities.

 

You make a lot of good points; some skills that I see a dirth of that I actually think would be great to incorporate: mothering skills.  It is something that I have always thought; as big as an emphasis as the Church makes on mothers and fathers I would like to see some actual practical teaching to the youth of how to be a good mother and father. Because those are skills that are learned and can be taught.

 

I wasn't involved in YW so maybe they do it.  And I understand the pathway is fraught with peril b/c there are many different ways to parent, but at least exposing YW to different parenting skills, techniques etc. would be good. Society has completely lost its rudder on how to actually parent-so they won't get any help from society on how to parent and I understand how it can be seen as in intrusion into parents domain.  

 

I actually think as a society we are forgetting how to be parents.  What about organizational, cleaniness skills and techniques.  I get it, it's 2015 so in this age of gender "equality" to talk about such things is sexist. But in married life, someone pays the bills and someone runs the household.  I love the word in spanish for it "ama de casa" not housewife but lover of home.

 

If we go to the Proclamation on the Family; men are principle providers, so we should have a YM program in place that teaches skills that will help them be providers; women are principle nurturers so we should have a YW program in place that teaches and encourages those skills to be future mothers.

 

But you see this is even flawed b/c the Church could not implement a program today that does this because the culture as a whole has lost it's footing on gender roles so many women within the church wouldn't stand for a YW program that actually taught skills that would be extremely useful in the future.

 

But that's my two cents. . .now I get to be labeled "sexists" along with my "homophobe" label.  Which is strange because against I'm the most libertarian person on this board.

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Backroads, weren't you working for the BSA in the not-too-distant past? Any word on how the BSA is receiving the Church's most recent statement?

I might have to go hob-nob up there when I'm back from our current family trip to hear the position!

Funnily enough, my more liberal friends from the council are the ones being Facebook vocal about it and are on the Church's side. A buddy of mine, possibly one of the most Scouting-obsessed people under 60 I know, had to leave when he came out as gay and is yet mad about this decision.

So that's one anectdote.

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I cannot quite understand how anyone thinks that the so-called "skills" that young men and women learn have anything to do with why the YM (including scouts) and YW programs are important. I'm an eagle scout, and I gotta say, I don't think I remember a single knot. Well...I guess I can still tie a bowline. But it sure isn't a life skill I've ever used or needed. I guess in an emergency I'd remember that I need to raise someone's legs and put a blanket on them for shock... that's about it. Mind you, I was an A.D.D. teenager, so perhaps not typical (or perhaps quite typical).

 

Getting skills, however, is not really what the youth programs are really meant to be about.

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You are wrong about gender roles;  

Okay. My mom taught me how to crochet and I can do that too! It's so much fun. I'm horrible at it, but it's still relaxing. 

I make beaded necklaces and have other feminine qualities. 

Cool story: I take karate and as a joke, a guy I was sparring with found out about some of my "girly" (his words, not mine) habits. He's a good friend, so he playfully teased me about it using some words I can't repeat here. I knocked him down flat with a good, clean shot and he got up and said "Maybe I should start knitting! " 

For the record, it was a lucky shot with good timing on my part. He's kicked my little butt many times! 

 

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The thing about the differences between the YW program and the YM aren't nearly as important as the leaders running the local programs.  The difference is leadership is the most profound.  Yes YM have a greater frame work to work with because of scouts.  But as many on this thread can attest the both programs can soar or they crash depending on the leaders dedication and willingness to work with the youth.

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Considering that at least every non-LDS Scout troop offers a week (or more, especially if the Scout wants to volunteer as camp staff) of summer camp every year, I don't see how saying "the girls get one thing pretty much like what the boys get" somehow makes it any better.

Except that it costs the Church more to provide the Young Women with that similar experience.  Why?  Because both the Church and the BSA charge less for the use of their camps than it actually costs to run them.  The difference is eaten by the BSA in the boys' case, but by the Church itself in the girls' case. 

 

So if it costs, on average, $500/child/week to run a good camp, and my son and my daughter each pay $300 to go to a week-long camp sponsored by the BSA or the Church respectively--the Church is really paying another $200 at the back end to subsidize my daughter's experience, and nothing at all to subsidize my son's experience.  True, the Church has to cough up for my son's registration fees and any awards/pins he earns during the year--but I strongly doubt those costs come anywhere near $200 per boy.

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Getting skills, however, is not really what the youth programs are really meant to be about.

 

I agree that it isn't about whether you can tie a knot. The skill set is not about tying knots or learning nuclear engineering or orienteering, etc, which most will forget within a couple of years.

 

The skill set being taught is self-reliance, independence, setting goals, reaching goals, never giving up, team work, leadership. It's the soft-set of skills that a boy learns that is the most important. And those are soft-skills that will be invaluable in the workplace.

 

And yes, from interviewing candidates-I can tell a difference in the attitude and mindset of individuals who have earned an Eagle Scout and those who haven't. The soft-skills that BSA teaches as a consequence of the hard technical skills is the most important-b/c the only way you learn the soft-skills in through the technical skills.

 

If you are asking what is the purpose for YM/YW well if it is simply something to keep youth involved in the Church then any program will do. If the purpose is to help them prepare for life as future husbands/wife, mother/father within a gospel setting, if the purpose is to augment parental teaching, then yes the purpose of YM/YW is to teach them appropriate ways of thinking-spiritually/mentally/physically. The way you do that is by action-not by book learning. And to do it by action requires teaching technical skills.

 

Every activity within the YM/YW program should have that goal in mind-even if it is a "fun" activity-what am I teaching these children.  Just like a parent-a parent is always parenting, even when they are relaxing and having fun.

 

In effect YM/YW leaders are sudo-parents. 50 years ago teachers realized this; their job wasn't simply to teach handwriting-their job was to teach a child responsibility, independence, etc. and those are the side-effects of handwriting. To teach them not technical skills, but through technical skill teaching, teach them how to be responsible adults.

Edited by yjacket
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Okay. My mom taught me how to crochet and I can do that too! It's so much fun. I'm horrible at it, but it's still relaxing. 

I'm very libertarian, so I have no problem-if that is what you like to do-no worries that's great have fun at it. It ain't for me-but so what.

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No RS sister NEEDS activities that are devoted to mani/pedis

 

Ever looked at some of the awful toe painting jobs around the Church?  You'd think they'd have been taught to color inside the lines in primary, but apparently not.

 

But if you have (as I did as a YW, and as my sister does now as Mia Maid advisor in her ward) a majority of girls in the class who consistently ask for such impractical things as I mentioned.. it is like pulling teeth to get them to attend and participate in much else. 

 

You're not thinking outside the box; waterboarding and blanket parties are nothing like pulling teeth.   :satan:

 

It is something that I have always thought; as big as an emphasis as the Church makes on mothers and fathers I would like to see some actual practical teaching to the youth of how to be a good mother and father. Because those are skills that are learned and can be taught.

 

 

Agreed.  One could argue that they should be learning those at home, but then any aspect of bad parenting gets passed on without a chance of correction, and those being raised by a single parent of the opposite gender never have a real example to learn from.

 

I'm an eagle scout, and I gotta say, I don't think I remember a single knot. Well...I guess I can still tie a bowline. But it sure isn't a life skill I've ever used or needed.

 

Tell your EQP to stop accepting whatever excuses you're making and get your butt out there on some service projects.  I use plenty of knots every time I move, help someone else move, clear brush, and lots of other things.  I've even put the sheepshank to good use a couple of times.

 

The skill set being taught is self-reliance, independence, setting goals, reaching goals, never giving up, team work, leadership. It's the soft-set of skills that a boy learns that is the most important. And those are soft-skills that will be invaluable in the workplace.

 

Unfortunately, though, basic honesty and integrity seem to have been relegated to a small chapter in the Gospel Principles manual, when they should be a part of every life skills lesson.  Instead, the Scouts are being taught that it's ok to bend the rules and ignore the ones that are inconvenient so they can get another merit badge.  That kind of thinking does carry over into later life.

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I'm very libertarian, so I have no problem-if that is what you like to do-no worries that's great have fun at it. It ain't for me-but so what.

Oh amen to that brother. When I joined the church during my baptism interview I asked the Stake President "I vote libertarian and I am active in libertarian politics....is that a problem?" 

 

He looked at me with a little smile and said "No worries Gator, this isn't about politics" 

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Oh amen to that brother. When I joined the church during my baptism interview I asked the Stake President "I vote libertarian and I am active in libertarian politics....is that a problem?" 

 

He looked at me with a little smile and said "No worries Gator, this isn't about politics" 

 

I think you are lying.   I don't think he called you Gator.  :P

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Okay. My mom taught me how to crochet and I can do that too! It's so much fun. I'm horrible at it, but it's still relaxing. 

I make beaded necklaces and have other feminine qualities. 

Cool story: I take karate and as a joke, a guy I was sparring with found out about some of my "girly" (his words, not mine) habits. He's a good friend, so he playfully teased me about it using some words I can't repeat here. I knocked him down flat with a good, clean shot and he got up and said "Maybe I should start knitting! " 

For the record, it was a lucky shot with good timing on my part. He's kicked my little butt many times! 

 

Chuck Liddell always painted his toenails.

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I agree that it isn't about whether you can tie a knot. The skill set is not about tying knots or learning nuclear engineering or orienteering, etc, which most will forget within a couple of years.

 

The skill set being taught is self-reliance, independence, setting goals, reaching goals, never giving up, team work, leadership. It's the soft-set of skills that a boy learns that is the most important. And those are soft-skills that will be invaluable in the workplace.

 

+many. This is the point.

 

But don't undersell skills acquisition. I find a surprising number of times when knot-tying is useful. When you get down to brass tacks, most of what we do during the day is chaining various skills we have developed.

 

In effect YM/YW leaders are sudo-parents.

 

sudo-parents! That's what I've been doing wrong!

 

sandwich.png

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Tell your EQP to stop accepting whatever excuses you're making and get your butt out there on some service projects.  I use plenty of knots every time I move, help someone else move, clear brush, and lots of other things.  I've even put the sheepshank to good use a couple of times.

 

I know you're joking...and so I'm not responding defensively, but just as related to the subject at hand... We have weekly service projects and constant move ins/outs in our ward and I am always there.... But I use tie downs -- or bungees. Get with the new millennium! Knots! Phaw!

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Chuck Liddell always painted his toenails.

 That guy is awesome for many reasons. I think he brought MMA into the mainstream. I heard he was taught boxing by a family member, but don't quote me on that. Im not sure. 

 

See my friend? We agree on something if you like MMA! 

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