Church re-evaluating Scouting Program

[Just_A_Guy]

Aren't you kind of moving the goal post from demanding TFP know a gay person, to demanding that he know both parties in a gay couple?

 

I can name, off the top of my head, five or six gay acquaintances/family members; but I've only met one of their partners.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[omegaseamaster75]

Aren't you kind of moving the goal post from demanding TFP know a gay person, to demanding that he know both parties of a gay couple?

True, I am setting the bar a little high. 

[yjacket]

Saratoga Springs, Utah detailed profile. ... Lesbian couples: 0.1% of all households;Gay men: 0.3% of all households

 

I may be wrong and I am big enough to admit that I am. If you are friends with the 1 lesbian couple or 2 gay couples in your city I apologize

 

Well I do know some and the older ones I know are miserable; they are homosexual-yet after living a life of sin they aren't too happy.

 

It is one of those perverse things in the modern society . . .hey I can be a homosexual and be "happy". Yet after living an entire live of sin-they sure aren't happy.

 

One of the things that brings happiness is family and having your own children to raise-so b/c many homosexuals realize they are losing out on the greatest bits of happiness in this life-they try and create their own "family", except it's not real-it's just a cheap fake facade.

[The Folk Prophet]

True, I am setting the bar a little high. 

 

...and a little pointless...as oft times seems to be your favored m.o.

 

[omegaseamaster75]

...and a little pointless...as oft times seems to be your favored m.o.

 

I think my overriding point is that you don't know what lies in the hearts of men and certainly not gay men since you don't know any.. So we certainly can't say that gay men will be lining up to be scout leaders so that they can be close to YM. 

 

The dots don't connect. 

[Guest]

I think my overriding point is that you don't know what lies in the hearts of men and certainly not gay men since you don't know any.. So we certainly can't say that gay men will be lining up to be scout leaders so that they can be close to YM. 

 

The dots don't connect. 

 

Why are guys not allowed in Girl Scouts?

 

Why can't church primary classes have one male teacher?

 

Why can't adults have sleepovers with kids?

 

Why are there separate male and female restroom facilities?

Edited August 13, 2015 by anatess

[omegaseamaster75]

Why are guys not allowed in Girl Scouts?

 

Why can't church primary classes have one male teacher?

 

Why can't adults have sleepovers with kids?

 

Why are there separate male and female restroom facilities?

Hey I agree, the church has a real problem I don't think we should be involved with the scouting program if they go down this road, but I won't vilify gay men by making statements like what has previously been posted

[Guest]

You do realize that the statement was that some (not all) will/could take advantage of the situation by seeking leadership positions in the BSA. Do you disagree?

[omegaseamaster75]

You do realize that the statement was that some (not all) will/could take advantage of the situation by seeking leadership positions in the BSA. Do you disagree?

Hey that happens now. The sexual deviants that want to prey on YM are doing it now. Some how this will be worse with gay leadership?

 

Gay men are no more likely to be sexual predators than straight men are.

[Just_A_Guy]

Why are guys not allowed in Girl Scouts?

 

In point of fact . . . they are allowed as leaders, though they're subject to a couple of extra restrictions during overnight activities that don't apply to female leaders. 

 

Not many men choose to do it--but some do.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[The Folk Prophet]

Gay men are no more likely to be sexual predators than straight men are.

 

Accepting this as absolute truth just for the sake of argument, it misses the point. Gay men are 100% more likely to be sexual predators of boys than straight men are, who are, conversely 100% more likely to be sexual predators of girls. See how that works?

[omegaseamaster75]

Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation

 

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

[Just_A_Guy]

Accepting this as absolute truth just for the sake of argument, it misses the point. Gay men are 100% more likely to be sexual predators of boys than straight men are, who are, conversely 100% more likely to be sexual predators of girls. See how that works?

 

Agreed.  No one would seriously suggest that Brianne Altice was just as much a threat to her female students as to her male students.  Why?  Because she was a heterosexual female.  She was attracted to males, and as such--her victims all turned out to be adolescent males. 

 

Those who agree with gay men serving in the BSA with no additional restrictions/safeguards, aren't really trying to convince us that homosexuals are as trustworthy as heterosexuals.  They're trying to convince us that homosexuals are more trustworthy than heterosexuals.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation

 

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

 

This is irrelevant.  The FACT is - our society deemed it absolutely necessary to have male and female public restrooms... for the same reason that we don't want gay men in Boy Scout camps.  And the danger is still the same - that even if there is only 1 gay child molester in the entire universe, this child molester will have easy pickings as a Boy Scout Leader.

Edited August 13, 2015 by anatess

[The Folk Prophet]

Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation

 

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

 

Haha. Like I'm going to trust data from a site that has the word "rainbow" in the URL.

[The Folk Prophet]

I think my overriding point is that you don't know what lies in the hearts of men and certainly not gay men since you don't know any.. So we certainly can't say that gay men will be lining up to be scout leaders so that they can be close to YM. 

 

The dots don't connect. 

 

Your overriding point in asking me how many gay people I know is that no one can read minds?

 

Yeah....those dots connect....

[Windseeker]

After my mission I shared a condo for a year with around eight homosexual flight attendants, me being the only straight one. I became friends with all of them. One of the flight attendants was a gay rights activist and told me that no matter what I hear in his experience every homosexual he has encountered had been groomed or molested at a young age by an older man. Now if this was indeed true I wouldn't be surprised if this number has dropped a bit since I heard this in the late 90's due to acceptance (grooming not required I suppose). Needless to say, I have not heard that kind of honesty since. 

 

Most of the homosexuals I have met personally have a sincere desire to be a positive influence in the lives of youth. They were not out to promote their lifestyle and were actually very conservative in their view on the importance of traditional families. At the same time most of the men I've met would never molest a girl. 

 

The reason society places restrictions is not to protect kids from the good individuals out there, but to protect them from the evil individuals out there. Since we can't look into a persons hearts it's safer to have a policy where men who are attracted to females should not be put in a position where they could take advantage of a females youth or inexperience to do evil and the same goes for those who are attracted to the same sex. 

 

What society has determined is that the rights of adults are more important then the protection of our youth and this is troubling to say the least.

[Guest MormonGator]

 

After my mission I shared a condo for a year with around eight homosexual flight attendants, me being the only straight one. I became friends with all of them. One of the flight attendants was a gay rights activist and told me that no matter what I hear in his experience every homosexual he has encountered had been groomed or molested at a young age by an older man. Now if this was indeed true I wouldn't be surprised if this number has dropped a bit since I heard this in the late 90's due to acceptance (grooming not required I suppose). Needless to say, I have not heard that kind of honesty since. 

 

Most of the homosexuals I have met personally have a sincere desire to be a positive influence in the lives of youth. They were not out to promote their lifestyle and were actually very conservative in their view on the importance of traditional families. At the same time most of the men I've met would never molest a girl. 

 

.

 

Amen. I roomed with a gay guy in college. He was very conservative as well. Those who think all gay men are just out to molest others can't really be reasoned with-it's sad. 

 

Edited August 13, 2015 by MormonGator

[Windseeker]

Amen. I roomed with a gay guy in college. He was very conservative as well. Those who think all gay men are just out to molest others can't really be reasoned with-it's sad. 

 

I agree that's sad,  but it's much more sad that society gives same-sex predators access to our children in order to appease the PC politburo. 

[Guest MormonGator]

I agree that's sad,  but it's much more sad that society gives same-sex predators access to our children in order to appease the PC politburo. 

Correct. On this issue there is a middle ground between "protecting children" and "Being delusional and thinking everyone is out to get my kids"

Look, I get the "we must protect kids" thing, but often times people 1) forget that not all of us have kids and I am not responsible for your children 2) are willing to sacrifice liberty for "safety" and 3) forget that your right as a parent doesn't trump my parents rights as parents either and 4) Become overly emotional because after all, it's all, "for the children"  

Off topic but still important example: I had a neighbor who "threatened to kill me" (verbatim) and got himself in serious trouble for it when I was a minor. He accused me of speeding in the neighborhood (I wasn't) and driving recklessly (I wasn't) . The man was correctly placed in handcuffs and hauled away to jail for his foul temper and threatening behavior.

When my old man found out about it, his quote was "Well, his right as a stranger doesn't supersede my right as your dad. Only I can threaten to kill you." 

Edited August 13, 2015 by MormonGator

[Guest]

Correct. On this issue there is a middle ground between "protecting children" and "Being delusional and thinking everyone is out to get my kids"

Look, I get the "we must protect kids" thing, but often times people 1) forget that not all of us have kids and I am not responsible for your children 2) are willing to sacrifice liberty for "safety" and 3) forget that your right as a parent doesn't trump my parents rights as parents either and 4) Become overly emotional because after all, it's all, "for the children"  

 

 

See, here's the thing...

 

We have the right to have an environment we deem safe for our children.  As a private institution, the BSA has declared that it will uphold the belief in a man's duty to God, country, and family through moral principles.  Hence, the Church incorporated the program into their Church activities.  The Boy Scouts have a lot of rules and regulations that keep boys safe, one of which is the separation of genders in the same manner that there is separation of genders in public restrooms, school locker rooms, etc. etc.

 

Now, a minority of the population shook up the BSA by putting their morality into the moral principles of the BSA and, in effect, making the rules and regulations of the BSA that has been installed to protect boys senseless.

 

And so the Church (and this is not just LDS churches) - which has a big presence in the BSA program is now contemplating starting their own program.

 

My question has always been - there is Boy Scouts, there is Girl Scouts, why don't they start their own LGBT Scouts?  They don't even want to have separate rules for Gay leaders as opposed to Straight Male Leaders similar to the rules of Male Leaders in Girl Scouts...

 

The answer I've always been given was... oh, it's not easy to start a program, it's cost prohibitive, Gay leaders are going to be discriminated, it is this, it is that, etc. etc. etc...

 

So.... it's fine if Churches have to go through the pain of having to start their own programs and be discriminated against, but it's not okay for LGBTs to do so?

 

So really, if you really really really really are honest with yourself, this is not about scouts... This is about a vast cultural change where the only acceptable outcome is that the entire world have to adopt the "enlightened morality" that having sex with somebody of the same gender is morally upright.  That's the end all be all of it.

[Guest MormonGator]

See, here's the thing...

 

We have the right to have an environment we deem safe for our children.  As a private institution, the BSA has declared that it will uphold the belief in a man's duty to God, country, and family through moral principles.  Hence, the Church incorporated the program into their Church activities.  The Boy Scouts have a lot of rules and regulations that keep boys safe, one of which is the separation of genders in the same manner that there is separation of genders in public restrooms, school locker rooms, etc. etc.

 

Now, a minority of the population shook up the BSA by putting their morality into the moral principles of the BSA and, in effect, making the rules and regulations of the BSA that has been installed to protect boys senseless.

 

And so the Church (and this is not just LDS churches) - which has a big presence in the BSA program is now contemplating starting their own program.

 

My question has always been - there is Boy Scouts, there is Girl Scouts, why don't they start their own LGBT Scouts?  They don't even want to have separate rules for Gay leaders as opposed to Straight Male Leaders similar to the rules of Male Leaders in Girl Scouts...

 

The answer I've always been given was... oh, it's not easy to start a program, it's cost prohibitive, Gay leaders are going to be discriminated, it is this, it is that, etc. etc. etc...

 

So.... it's fine if Churches have to go through the pain of having to start their own programs and be discriminated against, but it's not okay for LGBTs to do so?

 

So really, if you really really really really are honest with yourself, this is not about scouts... This is about a vast cultural change where the only acceptable outcome is that the entire world have to adopt the "enlightened morality" that having sex with somebody of the same gender is morally upright.  That's the end all be all of it.

Right. I don't disagree with that at all. The Boy Scouts and are a private organization and they can choose who they want to include. So can the church. 

 

You have the right to keep your child safe with how YOU determine it. You do NOT have the right to keep my child safe. IE-If I know an adult gay man, and I deem it safe for him to take my kids on an overnight trip, you can't stop me. You CAN stop your child from going. 

I am very concerned about how in this society we seem to be placing safety uber alles. Life involves a degree of risk acceptance

 

Edited August 13, 2015 by MormonGator

[Just_A_Guy]

My question has always been - there is Boy Scouts, there is Girl Scouts, why don't they start their own LGBT Scouts?  They don't even want to have separate rules for Gay leaders as opposed to Straight Male Leaders similar to the rules of Male Leaders in Girl Scouts...

 

Incidentally--they did.  I can't find official numbers, but their Facebook page seems to have just a hair over one half of one percent the number of Facebook "likes" that the BSA's Facebook page does.

[Guest]

Right. I don't disagree with that at all. The Boy Scouts and are a private organization and they can choose who they want to include. So can the church. 

 

You have the right to keep your child safe with how YOU determine it. You do NOT have the right to keep my child safe. IE-If I know an adult gay man, and I deem it safe for him to take my kids on an overnight trip, you can't stop me. You CAN stop your child from going. 

I am very concerned about how in this society we seem to be placing safety uber alles. Life involves a degree of risk acceptance

 

 

Sure, I take responsibility for my own children.  But, just like when we send them to school or with the  soccer team or the Washington DC field trip... we do so with the assumption that these organizations are safe for our children to be in.  It is quite unsettling to have Catholic kids be in a Catholic School and then the Catholic School declare after 100 years, that they're going to adopt anti-Catholic instruction now because these Muslim teachers want to teach there... sure, the Catholic parent can take their kid out of the school... but, let's not pretend that this is an acceptable norm and the Catholic parent are just making mountains out of molehills.

[Guest MormonGator]

Sure, I take responsibility for my own children.  But, just like when we send them to school or with the  soccer team or the Washington DC field trip... we do so with the assumption that these organizations are safe for our children to be in.  It is quite unsettling to have Catholic kids be in a Catholic School and then the Catholic School declare after 100 years, that they're going to adopt anti-Catholic instruction now because these Muslim teachers want to teach there... sure, the Catholic parent can take their kid out of the school... but, let's not pretend that this is an acceptable norm and the Catholic parent are just making mountains out of molehills.

 We don't really disagree. Like I said though, when it comes to "the children" I remain very concerned that we are sacrificing freedom and responsibility for "safety"  

Edited August 13, 2015 by MormonGator