The decline of declaring repentance

[Josiah]

I think we're basically on the same page now TFP. This is why I like forums. :) 

 

I'd still say it's possible to be tempted, and therefore have some level of desire for the sin, and not give in on any level. The Savior was, after all, "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." He was without sin because His righteous desires were such that the natural man desires were rendered completely and utterly irrelevant in what He did. If we're talking about immediately repenting of momentary, minor infractions as in your example, the difference between the two is made of little consequence by the Atonement. But it still happens, and I'll grant that this does mean we need to constantly strive for better in order to actually be repenting in the first place. And that bears heavily on our discussion.

 

I guess you could say that the problem with my point of view is that I've been looking at it like death is the end - as if at that point any imperfection is instantly gone if we've been repenting during our lives. But that's not how these things work. The process must continue on until it's finished, so it's important to have the end goal or purpose of that process fixed firmly in mind and in heart. Probably much more important than I've been giving it credit for.

 

Back on the topic at hand. The danger I'm still seeing is that we (the membership as a whole), just by the way we talk about homosexuality, cause people who struggle with it to feel as if their momentary "yeah baby" thought is grossly sinful, or at least quite a bit worse than everyone else's, despite their best efforts to repent. This just ends up piling on undue amounts of guilt over the issue and actually impedes the repentance process. This stuff happens - a lot. Some begin "trying too hard" and don't accept needed divine forgiveness over minor incidents. Others flat out get offended over our insensitivity and leave. Now, I say all of that loosely because it's 100% their choice whether or not to get offended or stressed over what we might say, but it's still on us to make sure we're sending the right message.

 

The right message is not "having the temptations you have is a sin". That's the one I think we have been sending in the past, and are making good progress on getting away from. The right message is what you said earlier: "having temptations is not a sin, but accepting that one just 'has' temptations without a constant effort to remove, diminish, and change these is." The new problem you have raised is how we do that while avoiding sending wrong message number 2: "You don't have to change who you are, you just have to control your thoughts and actions for the rest of your life."

Edited August 20, 2015 by Josiah

[Josiah]

The scriptures are full of examples of appropriate and inappropriate methodologies to convert people - and that is the point of all of it, conversion, not making people feel bad about themselves.  There are examples of people being stoned to death for calling those around them sinners, and other examples of those who are successful at converting their audience through using more loving methodologies. 

 

Hey changed!

 

Interesting story from my mission. As a missionary, I often had a hard time telling people what they needed to hear. I was fine with using gentleness and meekness, and for some people that was all that was needed for conversion. But I had a hard time with boldness and sharpness, and so many of the people I taught saw no need for change. Eventually, my mission president and I ended up talking about it. I haven't forgotten what he shared with me - here it is:

 

In Alma 38, Alma tells Shiblon to use boldness, but not overbearance. Overbearance is nothing more or less than using boldness without showing love for someone. That's all it is. Boldness without love. By contrast, if a person feels your love for them, you can be as bold as you need to be. It is impossible to be too bold if they feel your love for them. 

 

Interesting, right? Yes, some people choose to be offended when we are bold, even when we do show love in doing so. Why? Because the Light of Christ tells them that we are right and that they need to change. That's not a pleasant feeling, they've been ignoring that feeling, and we just reminded them it was there. But it sometimes is necessary to do so. And it can be successful, as in the case of Alma and Amulek converting Zeezrom, or that of Abinadi converting Alma, to name a few. Additionally, consider the Savior's words to the scribes and Pharisees here:

 

Matthew 23

 

Jesus Christ is the perfect teacher. He also has perfect love for all of us, including the scribes he denounced. He said what he said because they needed to hear it. This wasn't the only time he spoke boldly to them either - a thorough reading of the Gospels quickly makes that clear. Christ was among the martyrs you mention who were killed for testifying plainly of the sins of the people. I know His methods weren't inappropriate. 

[The Folk Prophet]

The Savior was, after all, "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." He was without sin because His righteous desires were such that the natural man desires were rendered completely and utterly irrelevant in what He did.

 

I have a hard time seeing the temptations that the Savior had as secret desires he harbored but he simply denied himself. If we look at those times when we truly, and honestly, have the bigger picture, even though the "natural" man might incline us towards certain caveman appetites, there is no secret longing, no hidden desire, etc.

 

I have a few examples of this, but I'll go with fitness and eating because it stays away from sexual appetites which can get pretty gritty pretty quickly.

 

I have been a fitness buff for many years now. When I get into it -- and I mean really get into it, I eat "clean". Egg whites, chicken breast, tuna, brown rice, oatmeal, etc.

 

I have several distinct examples of times when I had food temptations put before me in these "extreme" times. I had goals to hit a certain something, I had worked out HARD that morning...like could barely walk I was so sore. I had denied myself of normal food all week. I had spent a good amount of money on supplements and the like. I was seriously, and intently dedicated to the goals I had. Then a work party comes along and pizza is brought in. Free, delicious, yummy, pizza. And there's my work buddies taunting me. Shoving the pizza in my face. "You know you want some." "One piece isn't gonna hurt." And my favorite, "You're already skinny...why do you need to diet?" Etc., etc...

 

I can say, without any reservations at all, that I had no desire for that pizza in those moments. Sure -- it smelled good. Sure -- I intellectually knew it would taste good. And sure -- at other times when I was less into my fitness (but still into it) the fleeting desire to actually cheat passed my mind. But in these moments when I truly understood and was focused on what actually mattered to me, had committed my time, effort and money to this end, and was mentally, emotionally, and physically committed to these goals, the idea of cheating... After the sacrifice I made in the gym that morning? When I'm weighing in in just another day? When I dropped hundreds and hundreds on food, supplements, gym passes, etc...? Are you freaking kidding me? No way am I touching that pizza, nor did the idea that I might even enter my mind. Not...a...chance!

 

Compare this to the Savior now. His commitment to His mission and goals far surpassed even my best efforts. His understanding of the reward and desire for it was perfect. He knew what he was doing, what he wanted, why he was doing it, and what was required for it to succeed. Yes -- he was mortal. Yes -- he had mortal appetites. But like those of my best moments with the pizza, I believe he never even considered -- not for a moment -- the possibility of touching that pizza! Nor did the thought of doing so even enter His mind. Not...a...chance!

 

That is the way I see it. Was I "tempted" in those moments? I smelled the pizza. My stomach rumbled. I still liked pizza. My friends taunted me. Seems like that qualifies. And yet, the bigger picture, the larger goal, changed my reaction to the base, core temptation, and in spite of the "natural" man, it was not even an option.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

So... I had to take a leave of absence because I was communicating poorly and it was on the edge of causing trouble. There's a lot to catch up on, and I haven't read all of the intervening comments, but I think I have something to add that might shed a new light on the topic. Let's hope I can explain it in a way that everyone can understand and appreciate.

 

Mormons are afraid to be sinners.

 

By which I mean that we are afraid to openly admit to or talk about our sins. I bet we're far more afraid to talk about sin than we are to commit sin.

 

But this is the true church of Christ, a hospital for the spiritually sick. "We come to church not to hide our problems but to heal them." It's meant to be a support group, where everyone can "bear one another’s burdens". Nobody can help you bear a burden that you don't share (as in talk about). I did read a few of the added comments and I saw someone who mentioned having been tempted by attraction to someone who wasn't their spouse. As an example (and not an accusation), when was the last time you talked about that in your priesthood quorum? I suspect you haven't, because none of us do. I think this lack of sharing is a problem because someone in our quorum or relief society might be facing the same struggles and our success can give them encouragement or advice that they need to overcome it!

One reason I think we're afraid to talk openly about our problems is because we're afraid of being judged, condemned, or, God forbid, "called to repentance". I put the repentance in quotes because so frequently such calls come without the prerequisite Christlike love, and as such are simply condemnations in a thin disguise.

 

I saw a question on why people would call others to repentance if not out of love. Well, here are a few ideas.

I'm a know it all, so I have to be right and make sure everyone knows I'm right.

I have a duty to declare repentance.

The righteous declare repentance and I am trying to be righteous.

I made a commitment to the missionaries to share the Gospel with someone.

I want other mormons to think I'm righteous.

This will make a great story to tell in Priesthood when they ask for a personal experience about repentance.

If I don't condemn this sin, then I'm not keeping my covenants.

If I don't condemn this sin, then I'm not standing firm for what is right.

If this person hasn't completely overcome this sin, then they aren't even trying because "repentance means change".

These are reasons why mormons frequently get the label of "self-righteous" or "holier than thou". 

 

As we've talked about before - there is a big difference between how repentance is declared and how that declaration is received. As Josiah said, if we take the time to ensure that we love the person and if we're really in-tune with the Spirit, then we can be instructed in how to declare repentance in a way that it will best be received. (Though maybe not heeded, as every missionary knows.)

 

So back to the topic at hand - in what way can we declare repentance so that those we meet and talk to will feel encouraged and loved and supported in their trials? So that they will feel like church is a safe place to talk about their trials and temptations and sins, knowing that there is a whole quorum or sisterhood who will do anything to help them rise above their challenges?

[The Folk Prophet]

One reason I think we're afraid to talk openly about our problems is because we're afraid of being judged, condemned, or, God forbid, "called to repentance". I put the repentance in quotes because so frequently such calls come without the prerequisite Christlike love, and as such are simply condemnations in a thin disguise.

 

I'm not sure how you imagine this going.

 

John (during class): "I admit it. I have sometimes looked inappropriately at women other than my wife. This is something that I have struggled with."

 

Then...later...after class in the hallway....

 

Bill: "Hey John, I need to talk to you a second."

 

John: "Yeah."

 

Bill: "You are a sinner. You need to repent of looking at other people's wives or you're going to go to hell!"

 

....record scratch.....

 

Point of note here. Bill is a crazy person. Only a crazy person would do that. Bill...seek help with a professional. You're crazy!

 

I have a duty to declare repentance.

The righteous declare repentance and I am trying to be righteous.

I made a commitment to the missionaries to share the Gospel with someone.

If I don't condemn this sin, then I'm not keeping my covenants.

If I don't condemn this sin, then I'm not standing firm for what is right.

 

All of the these ^ are because of love. The others may, sometimes, be motivating factors for some, socially disabled type people. Usually those sorts of people end up on street corners with signs and very few take them seriously.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I'm not sure how you imagine this going.

 

John (during class): "I admit it. I have sometimes looked inappropriately at women other than my wife. This is something that I have struggled with."

 

Then...later...after class in the hallway....

 

Bill: "Hey John, I need to talk to you a second."

 

John: "Yeah."

 

Bill: "You are a sinner. You need to repent of looking at other people's wives or you're going to go to hell!"

 

....record scratch.....

 

Point of note here. Bill is a crazy person. Only a crazy person would do that. Bill...seek help with a professional. You're crazy!

I'm not sure what you're trying to do, but the fact that you ignored my point in favor of responding with sarcasm tells me that this conversation is not going to go anywhere.

 

 

puf_the_majic_dragon, on 20 Aug 2015 - 2:09 PM, said:

I have a duty to declare repentance.

The righteous declare repentance and I am trying to be righteous.

I made a commitment to the missionaries to share the Gospel with someone.

If I don't condemn this sin, then I'm not keeping my covenants.

If I don't condemn this sin, then I'm not standing firm for what is right.

All of the these ^ are because of love. The others may, sometimes, be motivating factors for some, socially disabled type people. Usually those sorts of people end up on street corners with signs and very few take them seriously.

They are because of pride.

[The Folk Prophet]

I'm not sure what you're trying to do, but the fact that you ignored my point in favor of responding with sarcasm tells me that this conversation is not going to go anywhere.

 

You're trying to build a case based on the idea that if someone confesses any sort of sin in church that others will come up to them and do just that. I'm using "sarcasm" to point out that your case is ridiculous. People don't do that. And those who do have severe social disorders. It certainly isn't a church-wide problem. And if it is, then there are a lot of people in the church with severe social disorders, which means they need to be seeing therapists and/or psychologists.

 

Have you noted, by the way, the irony of your case against calling others to repentance as you call people to repentance? Just curious if you're even aware of that.

 

They are because of pride.

 

I strive to do my duty because I love the Lord.

I am trying to be righteous because I love the Lord.

If I make a commitment to the missionaries and/or others to share the gospel it is because I love the Lord.

I strive to keep my covenants because I love the Lord.

If stand firm for what is right because I love the Lord.

 

And I am willing to put up with people calling me prideful because I love the Lord more than I care for what those like you think of me.

[Vort]

They are because of pride.

 

Well, there you go, TFP. Now you know.

[Vort]

I personally think the only ones who are qualified to call another to repentance, is someone who has been down the same (or very similar) road, is humble enough to admit where they were and how it hurt them, and is trying to keep another from making the same mistake they themselves made.

 

It appears that God holds a different opinion. To Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer, God commanded:

 

Wherefore, you are called to cry repentance unto this people. And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!

 

You may claim that this was specific to Oliver and David, and we shouldn't apply it to ourselves. If this were the only scriptural witness, perhaps you would have a point. But the Lord is very explicit in a later section:

 

Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.

 

For those who care to look, the scriptures are filled with the injunction that we declare repentance to our fellow man. Nowhere is there the caveat that "you can only declare repentance when you yourself have been guilty of that sin and have somehow managed to overcome it." Were that true, Jesus Christ himself would have been unjustified in his mortal ministry.

 

Instead of inventing our own rules as we go along, we would always do better to learn and follow the voice of God.

[Josiah]

One reason I think we're afraid to talk openly about our problems is because we're afraid of being judged, condemned, or, God forbid, "called to repentance". I put the repentance in quotes because so frequently such calls come without the prerequisite Christlike love, and as such are simply condemnations in a thin disguise.

 

I agree with TFP that this doesn't typically happen openly (although there are definitely a few Pharisees among us, as there are anywhere). The fear of being judged still plays a big role though. Sure, nobody's likely to confront you directly on what you said in Sunday School, but will anyone secretly judge you on it? Or worse, in some circles, will they talk about it when you're not around? This fear is usually exaggerated far beyond what's warranted, but there's just enough truth to it to show that we all have some work to do. We can do much better at showing unconditional love and easing such fears while still maintaining clarity on what's right and what's wrong.

[Josiah]

Sorry, haven't been on here in awhile..

 

 

Great List puff! 

 

I personally think the only ones who are qualified to call another to repentance, is someone who has been down the same (or very similar) road, is humble enough to admit where they were and how it hurt them, and is trying to keep another from making the same mistake they themselves made. 

 

In other words, if you have never been down xyz road, then you have no experience, and no understanding to be able to help someone else on xyz road, and it will do no good for you to call them a sinner...

 

That is the point of why everyone listens to our Savior, because he actually experienced and went down the same roads, so he is "qualified" to be a teacher in all areas. 

 

Example:

I have a few relatives with drinking problems... drinking problems that go back around 2000 years (once you hit royalty in your family history line, you can get quite a long account of history).  One of my relatives has overcome her issues, and is now a councilor.  The last fb post from one of her friends, she had stopped her car, and rescued a drunk out of the middle of the street - a complete stranger with a gushing head wound etc. etc.  she was the "good Samaritan" to stop and help when everyone else was driving by.  Anyways, she does not look down on people like this, because this is where she was a few years ago.  She can talk to people and help people now, only because she understands them through personal experience. 

 

This is why the church creates counseling groups with people who all have the same issues - the best place to find help, is through others who have walked the same road....

 

(bold for those who don't want to read the whole post - this is the point of it all)

If you have NOT walked the same road, then you are NOT qualified to try and 'help' those on that road.  If you know someone who needs help, find them help from someone who has been down that road, and has figured out how to overcome it.  You will sound like a goodie-two-shoes prideful idiot if you try and help someone in an area you have not experienced and therefore know nothing about. 

 

In other words, you are not qualified for the work - you are not qualified to cry "repentance" to another, unless you have personal experience in that area.

 

While I agree that it wouldn't be wise for me to offer someone advice on overcoming an addiction to alcohol, what would you say about me giving that person advice on the process of exercising faith in Jesus Christ and His Atonement, repenting of sin through that faith, making and keeping covenants, and following the promptings of the Spirit? That's a road I have walked and continue to walk, so do I qualify to go that far?

 

I don't understand what someone with an addiction to alcohol goes through, but the Savior does. He can take it from there, but someone has to introduce them to Him first. I believe that anyone who has learned to be a disciple of Christ is fully qualified to declare repentance in that sense. See also D&C 4.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Josiah

[thoughts]

For the OP's specific example, the reason that mormonsandgays.org is heavy on call to repentance is that BEING GAY IS NOT A SIN, as declared by the prophet.    And therefore it is entirely inappropriate to beat people up emotionally, in language, or in how we act, because they experience same sex attraction.  

 

And how is it useful to beat up people verbally or in our hearts because they commit sin, anyway.   Homosexuals certainly do not have any questions that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints thinks sexual relationships of any kind outside of marriage is a sin.  And that all sexual behaviors (at BYU even holding hands and kissing) between homosexuals is sin.

 

Why do we have to belabor the point so that OP thinks we having quit "crying repentance"?

[The Folk Prophet]

Sorry, haven't been on here in awhile..

 

 

Great List puff! 

 

I personally think the only ones who are qualified to call another to repentance, is someone who has been down the same (or very similar) road, is humble enough to admit where they were and how it hurt them, and is trying to keep another from making the same mistake they themselves made. 

 

In other words, if you have never been down xyz road, then you have no experience, and no understanding to be able to help someone else on xyz road, and it will do no good for you to call them a sinner...

 

That is the point of why everyone listens to our Savior, because he actually experienced and went down the same roads, so he is "qualified" to be a teacher in all areas. 

 

Example:

I have a few relatives with drinking problems... drinking problems that go back around 2000 years (once you hit royalty in your family history line, you can get quite a long account of history).  One of my relatives has overcome her issues, and is now a councilor.  The last fb post from one of her friends, she had stopped her car, and rescued a drunk out of the middle of the street - a complete stranger with a gushing head wound etc. etc.  she was the "good Samaritan" to stop and help when everyone else was driving by.  Anyways, she does not look down on people like this, because this is where she was a few years ago.  She can talk to people and help people now, only because she understands them through personal experience. 

 

This is why the church creates counseling groups with people who all have the same issues - the best place to find help, is through others who have walked the same road....

 

(bold for those who don't want to read the whole post - this is the point of it all)

If you have NOT walked the same road, then you are NOT qualified to try and 'help' those on that road.  If you know someone who needs help, find them help from someone who has been down that road, and has figured out how to overcome it.  You will sound like a goodie-two-shoes prideful idiot if you try and help someone in an area you have not experienced and therefore know nothing about. 

 

In other words, you are not qualified for the work - you are not qualified to cry "repentance" to another, unless you have personal experience in that area.

 

You just disqualified Christ from declaring repentance.

[The Folk Prophet]

For the OP's specific example, the reason that mormonsandgays.org is heavy on call to repentance is that BEING GAY IS NOT A SIN, as declared by the prophet.    And therefore it is entirely inappropriate to beat people up emotionally, in language, or in how we act, because they experience same sex attraction.  

 

By interpretation, I'm inferring you believe that any form of declaring repentance is beating people up?

 

And how is it useful to beat up people verbally or in our hearts because they commit sin, anyway.  

 

Why are you presuming that the discussion is advocating the beating of people up?

 

Why do we have to belabor the point so that OP thinks we having quit "crying repentance"?

 

Because of the other stuff you just said.

[f1lbr]

The scriptures are full of examples of appropriate and inappropriate methodologies to convert people - and that is the point of all of it, conversion, not making people feel bad about themselves.  There are examples of people being stoned to death for calling those around them sinners, and other examples of those who are successful at converting their audience through using more loving methodologies. 

 

 

This comment causes me some consternation. The implication is that the methodology is judged on the merits of its success without thought or consideration of the wickedness of the recipients who receive the prophets' messages or that they may have been commanded to declare repentance in such a manner. Comparing one prophet's success (converts) against another's supposed failure by being (or attempts thereto) stoned just seems unjust.

 

Yes some prophets were stoned. Does that mean their methodologies were flawed? Perhaps their trial was to declare repentance to those more wicked. Irregardless, it strikes my as a bit self righteous to assume a lack of love or to judge their methodologies as flawed because of the measure or the wicked response of the people.

 

Consider the example of Jesus Christ whom the unrighteous rulers of the Jews intended to stone on more than one occasion because of his message to them. Was his methodology inappropriate?

[Finrock]

You just disqualified Christ from declaring repentance.

 

 

I don't think he did. Jesus has gone beneath all things. He has walked the walk. He knows what it is like to sin and to be a sinner. He knows perfectly all sorrows, all pains, all wants, all needs, all desires, all sins. He can succor His children with perfect understanding and humility. He can call us to repentance because He has perfect love for us.

 

Do you realize that you (all of us are, not picking on you alone) are an enemy to God, and yet He has sustained you and healed you and at no point has he mocked you or tried to make you feel small or bad in any way?

 

He isn't punitive. He isn't harsh. He isn't shortsighted. He isn't narrow-minded. He doesn't want to harm, mock, belittle, or make anyone hurt. He wants to heal, no matter who you are or what you have done or where you might be!

Once we have obtained God's word, through His Spirit, then we are to declare His word, even repentance. No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by the priesthood except by persuasion, long-suffering, meekness, love unfeigned, etc.!

 

-Finrock

 

EDIT: To clarify intent.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Finrock

[f1lbr]

In other words, you are not qualified for the work - you are not qualified to cry "repentance" to another, unless you have personal experience in that area.

 

I think it certainly may help but surely it is hardly a prerequisite.  When the Lord calls a prophet to declare repentance unto a people do you really believe that the prophet had "personal experience" with the area of sin?  Certainly not.  Must a prophet have repented of committing adultery before he can be "qualified" to declare repentance of such?  By your logic would you imply that every prophet that has called upon men who struggle with pornography to repent, also have once struggled with pornography?

 

The church does organize counselling groups to help with addiction.  But repentance does not come through those groups.  Working through repentance is done through priesthood authority.

 

[f1lbr]

Repentance comes through the savior because of the atonement.

 

Forgiveness comes through the atonement. Repentance is made possible because of the atonement. For lesser sins, yes, repentance can be a completely personal process. For more serious sins, it involves priesthood assistance.

 

It is a personal journey for all of us (even the imperfect prophets) with "no borrowed light" about it.

 

What you say is true but is kinda like saying life is a personal journey. Of course it is.

 

Those who have gone through repentance, have experienced forgiveness and love from the Savior, wish for others to get to the other side of it too... we" wish" to cry repentance, but know it is only a "wish" and impossible to do, because the repentance process is at its heart a personal journey.

 

So Alma the younger never cried repentance because he could only "wish" he could? The thing is you make big statements like this that are wholly contradicted by precedence in scripture. Earlier you stated that in order to be "qualified" to declare "repentance" one must first have "personal experience" in that area. Your current statement conflicts your last statement because now you are saying that a person who has "personal experience" and has "repented" can only "wish" to cry repentance because it is impossible to do.

Either way it sounds like you are stretching the blanket thinner and thinner in order to come up with a rationale why people can't declare repentance.

You base your argument on the supposition that repentance being a personal process, which it is, automatically excludes anyone else from being involved in the process of repentance. You cite not precedence or other basis for you argument. You merely present it as if the statement itself is proof sufficient.

Let's look at this from another perspective. Conversion, a process closely related to repentance, is also a personal journey. Ask anyone who has gone through the process and they will tell you it is personal. The time spent praying and gaining a witness is personal. Yet the personal nature of the journey does not exclude outside assistance in the process. Before they can become converted to the gospel, they must first hear the gospel. Hearing that gospel comes through missionaries, through reading the scriptures, etc. In other words, the Lord doesn't expect us to one day say, "Hey I'm going to convert to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't know anything about it, don't know where to find it, don't know what it is but I'm going to convert right now." He puts those in our path who will help us get to that critical point of praying about the gospel and receiving the witness.

Repentance is, for obvious reasons, a similar process. Sometimes we forget or don't know that our actions or beliefs are sin. Sometimes we delude ourselves into believing our actions or beliefs aren't sin. Whatever the reason, sometimes we need to be reminded that the path we are on is not the Lord's path. This is where crying repentance comes in. Sometimes the crying repentance is done through the Holy Ghost if we are still in tune enough to listen. Sometimes we are too far off the path for the Holy Ghost to be the medium through which repentance is declared. In such cases, the Lord uses chosen individuals to carry that message. It is analogous to the missionary declaring the gospel. It is a part of the process that brings a person to the critical moment. If the person to whom repentance is declared is humble, the repentance process can begin, and yes, it is personal. But whether through the Holy Ghost or through prophets because people aren't listening to the Holy Ghost, it is the same. Most often we need that nudge to get us on the process of repentance.

[f1lbr]

I think we all are called to first admit our own weakness, we are all called to be humble - if we have a broken heart and contrite spirit, approach others  - not pretending to be perfect or better than them - but approach others as a "fellow sinner" with the goal that we can all support one another and be a little bit better... mourn with those who mourn, this is the point of it.

 

Your quote presupposes that those conditions have not already been met.  And such presupposition is then used for justification.

 

 

 

Alma 29:2 Yea, I would declare unto every soul, as with the voice of thunder, repentance and the plan of redemption, that they should repent and come unto our God, that there might not be more sorrow upon all the face of the earth.

 

The "goal" is not to support one another a little better.  Yes it is true that we as saints are supposed to do that.  But that is not the point here.  The "goal" is that people are to repent.  And telling someone that they need to repent is sometimes a necessary part of that process.

[f1lbr]

It seems I have hit a sore spot with some of the people here, so I will just reiterate that I agree with our current leaders, and their messages of love and support to everyone.  

For those who are angry at our prophet and apostles for not commanding everyone to repent from the pulpit, please take some time to listen to the most recent general conferences, and consider the tactics used to deliver various messages.  The talks spend the lion's share of the time on supporting what is right (with very little reference to condemning what is wrong).

I can't speak for others but I am in no way angry or frustrated for at our prophet or apostles for a supposed lack of pulpit pounding. I find that every conference I find talks that speak to me on ways that I can improve myself and to me those are calls to repentance. So to me I find every conference full of calls to repentance.

To me I wonder if the frustration that some have comes from knowing that we support true tenets (eg opposition to same sex marriage or whatever issue) and finding a disturbing number of saints supporting counter positions. It is understandable to want to feel justified in our beliefs and to want more vocal support from the brethren supporting our positions. However, while the brethren do support our positions (assuming we are in alignment with the brethren, of course) we have to always bear in mind that the church isn't a club just for the righteous but is for all who are at least striving for righteousness irregardless of whatever level they are currently at.

For me it is sufficient alone that my beliefs are in harmony with the brethren and the Gospel of Jesus Christ and are supported by the Holy Ghost. I don't need pulpit pounding to convince others that my beliefs are correct.

 

I look forward to the next G.C. and seek to emulate the example of our leaders on how to be a good influence in the world.

As do I.