Fear for my son's soul


mormonmother3398
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Oh dear, I truly am terribly sorry to bring such negativity in what seems to be an exceptionally bright and lively forum, however I'm afraid that my husband and I are quite lost. As devout members of the Mormon church, truly, our wishes have always lied in the saving of young souls, through although, recently, our son of fourteen years has declared himself as atheist, through a rather lengthy letter which described why he felt a disconnect towards the Mormon religion. Included within it, he mentioned that he felt as though our consistent Mormon outings were rather harmful to him, and the cause for his often sullen and irritable mood. Also mentioned, were several debunked pieces of Mormon evidence (such as Nahom, how joseph smith could have written the Book Of Mormon, the witnesses, ect.), as well as what he felt were logical flaws in the book of Mormon (linguistic troubles, "anachronisms", population, "impossible" events, ect.) . He fears that a continuation of his Mormon practices might result in terrible pain, however, my husband and I worry for his soul if we do not force him to attend the Mormon church, and believe in our religion. Would anyone happen to have any recommendations or advice?

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My advice.

 

Give him the link to FairMormon.org and tell him to read up.

 

Next advice - he's 14.  He is a minor.  He doesn't know everything.  Explain to him that although he doesn't believe in the Church, you, as his parents, are still responsible for his upbringing.  Therefore, as he still lives in your house, he will have to attend Church every Sunday just so he will increase his learning of what the Church teaches so that he will know exactly what he declares as not believing in.  Tell him it is not logical to disagree with something you really don't understand.  It is always better to understand it completely first and then disagree with it.  Tell him you cannot force him to have faith in God, but that you, as his parents, have a house rule that as long as he is a minor under your care, he will go to church on Sunday.

 

But - most important advice of all - you might want to look at whether you are living your life out of balance... putting more time on church callings than putting your own house in order, for example, and fix it if it is.  Figure out how is he getting these outside influences without your guidance and sit down with your spouse to map out a plan for you to set a better example for your son with your testimonies and faith in God making a positive effect on his life.

 

Hope this helps.

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I'm very sorry to hear about this. I don't have children at this point, but I know it's hard to watch any family member make harmful choices - I'm sure it's on a whole different level when it's your son. I know that the Savior will help you through the trial, but it still isn't easy. I wish you the best, and I'll pray for you and your son. As for advice, others here can be more helpful I think, but here's a thought or two that come to mind:

 

First off, while you may be able to force him to attend church for a time, you'll never be able to force him to believe a single thing that's taught or done there, much less to actively apply and internalize the principles. I've seen discussion on agency and parenting before - "how long do I make my kids come to church, when are they old enough that they should make their own decision" etc. I won't get into that here because while I have my opinion on this situation, I really don't know the answer and I'm not entitled to revelation on behalf of your son. You and your husband are, as is your bishop. I'm sure the three of you and the Lord can come up with better solutions together than a bunch of internet weirdos.  :rolleyes:  So that's advice #1: Counsel together as a couple, as well as with the bishop, and seek revelation.

 

What I do know, though, is that his beliefs are ultimately going to be his choice and nobody else's. I'm also fairly sure that his soul, like anyone's, will be dependent on his beliefs, what he does with them in his life, and his relationship with the Savior rather than a check mark on the attendance sheet. Whether you decide to bring him to church or not, it feels to me like it's still treating the symptoms, not the disease. And as hard as it is to swallow, only he and the Savior can effectively treat the disease.

 

Because of that, advice #2 is this: whatever path he's taking, make sure he knows that you love him regardless. If you feel like you can, see if you can talk with him and especially listen to what he's thinking and feeling, and why. I don't know your son, but I'd bet quite a bit that there's more to this than he's told you. Continue to show love in simple ways, and don't stop if he keeps moving the wrong way. If he knows and feels your unconditional love for him (if not for his decisions), it will be an influence toward the Savior.

 

Advice #3 is listen to this talk, and apply what the Spirit tells you.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/where-justice-love-and-mercy-meet?lang=eng

 

Best of luck to you.

Edited by Josiah
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Testimony comes through the witness of the Holy Spirit, and encouraging him to this end is the only solution. The answer to his concerns are to be found upon his knees.

 

FairMormon and the like will not do a lick of good for someone who is determined in their negative views. It becomes a powerful source of help if one has a testimony and then is looking for answers. But the testimony needs to come first.

 

The method of gaining testimony is, has been, and will continue to be the same as it has ever been. The reality of the internet and the age of information that allows for easy access to complicated questions and criticisms won't change that.

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I was less active around that age. I think "going to classes" when you don't want to be there is a hard one. On one hand it helped, on the other, I learned more about the gospel in 3 months of activity then 14 or 15 years of being "raised" in the church. I mainly would try to help him make friends. Going to activities makes him in a bad mood? Then the other kids there aren't befriending you son. For me, I stayed in the church initially for FRIENDS. After the right age, I figured I better learn for myself if it is true or not. So to me, he won't gain a testimony if you force him to go. But if the Bishop talks to the boys about befriending him and you can get him a friend or two, that'll do more good than anything! But as always that helped me, and each person is different. So use prayer and talk to the Bishop!

 

Good Luck!

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...however, my husband and I worry for his soul if we do not force him to attend the Mormon church, and believe in our religion. Would anyone happen to have any recommendations or advice?

 

You can insist that he attends church but I doubt you can force him to believe.

 

M.

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Oh dear, I truly am terribly sorry to bring such negativity in what seems to be an exceptionally bright and lively forum, however I'm afraid that my husband and I are quite lost. As devout members of the Mormon church, truly, our wishes have always lied in the saving of young souls, through although, recently, our son of fourteen years has declared himself as atheist, through a rather lengthy letter which described why he felt a disconnect towards the Mormon religion. Included within it, he mentioned that he felt as though our consistent Mormon outings were rather harmful to him, and the cause for his often sullen and irritable mood. Also mentioned, were several debunked pieces of Mormon evidence (such as Nahom, how joseph smith could have written the Book Of Mormon, the witnesses, ect.), as well as what he felt were logical flaws in the book of Mormon (linguistic troubles, "anachronisms", population, "impossible" events, ect.) . He fears that a continuation of his Mormon practices might result in terrible pain, however, my husband and I worry for his soul if we do not force him to attend the Mormon church, and believe in our religion. Would anyone happen to have any recommendations or advice?

 

This is some pretty heavy stuff for a 14 year old.  I'm guessing most of this he's ripping off anti-Mormon sites.  Now, you could go and play the aplogetics game (FairMormon etc), but are apologitics the main issue here?  

 

I would sit down with your son and first of all figure out what the main issue is.

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This is some pretty heavy stuff for a 14 year old.  I'm guessing most of this he's ripping off anti-Mormon sites.  Now, you could go and play the aplogetics game (FairMormon etc), but are apologitics the main issue here?  

 

I would sit down with your son and first of all figure out what the main issue is.

 

Yes I don't know many if at all any 14 year olds that are having issues with these things.  Sounds more like adult issues of understanding or misunderstanding.

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This is some pretty heavy stuff for a 14 year old.  I'm guessing most of this he's ripping off anti-Mormon sites.  Now, you could go and play the aplogetics game (FairMormon etc), but are apologitics the main issue here?  

 

I would sit down with your son and first of all figure out what the main issue is.

 

Yes I don't know many if at all any 14 year olds that are having issues with these things.  Sounds more like adult issues of understanding or misunderstanding.

 

If you do sit down with your son and talk to him about things, a good questions might be

 

1) "How did you feel about church things before finding these things out?"  (This assuming he came across some website listing the Mormon "skeleton closet") 

2)  "How have have your feelings changed since then?" 

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my husband and I worry for his soul if we do not force him to attend the Mormon church, and believe in our religion. Would anyone happen to have any recommendations or advice?

 

Yeah, trying to force someone to believe, is a pretty great way to drive a wedge between you and your son, and drive him out of the church.

 

You've got a cookie, and you can stretch out your hand and offer it to him.  If you strap him to a pew and cram it down his throat, you think he'll like cookies?

Edited by NeuroTypical
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This is some pretty heavy stuff for a 14 year old.  I'm guessing most of this he's ripping off anti-Mormon sites.  Now, you could go and play the aplogetics game (FairMormon etc), but are apologitics the main issue here?  

 

I would sit down with your son and first of all figure out what the main issue is.

 

I concur here; I don't think this is the main issue. 

 

 Included within it, he mentioned that he felt as though our consistent Mormon outings were rather harmful to him, and the cause for his often sullen and irritable mood. 

 

Really? Give me a break.  Kid honestly sounds like a spoiled brat rather than someone with serious religious questions. This isn't so much a religion issue as much as a rebellion issue.

 

I'd recommend:

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/teen-proofing-john-rosemond/1005608189#productInfoTabs

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Yeah, trying to force someone to believe, is a pretty great way to drive a wedge between you and your son, and drive him out of the church.

 

You've got a cookie, and you can stretch out your hand and offer it to him.  If you strap him to a pew and cram it down his throat, you think he'll like cookies?

 

Give the kid choices . . .okay son, it's your choice if you don't want to go to church, no problem. But you don't get to just sit at home watching TV and playing video games while the rest of the family is at church. You've got 3.5 hours, when we get home the bathrooms will be cleaned, the living room mopped, the garden weeded and lawn mowed. Better get hopping 'cuz times a wasting! :-)

 

And if he isn't obedient enough to follow those instructions then you've got bigger issues than his religiosity.

Edited by yjacket
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There is nothing wrong with your son, I wish us members would stop casting a doom and gloom scenerio on every person that doesnt come to church.

 

On the positive side Im assuming you raised him up in primary and baptised him at eight? That is superb, at 14 he is making his own choices and you are witnessing the beautiful plan of salvation in action with all its free agency.

 

Sit back, love the physical human son that you gave life to, continue to go to the temple and pray for your love to increase for him, dont pray for him to come back to church because that just adds stress to your perception that he is doomed. Jesus will take all the burdens off your shoulders.

 

The best thing you can do is be an example and the lighthouse that shines bright in his life. Jesus will be the one that brings him back to the straight and narrow if it takes 5 years or 20, its not up to you, its up to Jesus.

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dont pray for him to come back to church 

 

What the WHAT?!

 

 

Jesus will be the one that brings him back to the straight and narrow if it takes 5 years or 20, its not up to you, its up to Jesus.

 

Actually, it's up to the kid.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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Guest LiterateParakeet

MormonMother, I think the best advice you will get if from others who have also struggled with their testimony.  So seek out those people.  Probably a couple have posted in this thread already, I don't know.  I'm one of them though.  It's not something we generally talk about in the church...there's too much shame involved.  

 

I'm sorry.  I know these things are hard and scary and you want the best for your son.  My advice is first and foremost, let him know you love him and will continue to love him no matter what....even if he dies an atheist.   If he doesn't feel your unconditional love then it is unlikely he will listen to anything you have to say.

 

Remember 14 is still very young...remember when you were 14?  Weren't you different then?  I sure was.  I'm 49 now and I can't believe the changes my life has taken me through.  My point is don't panic or lose hope.  Remind yourself of all the things that are good about your son, focus on those.  If he feels that his only value to you is as a "worthy priesthood holder" that will only drive him farther from the church.

 

I agree with the others that say there is likely something going on beneath all of this.  It would be good to try and find out what that is....again unconditional love, and listening is your best chance.

 

FairMormon is a great idea.  It helped me a lot when I was struggling with doubts about God and our church.  My issues had nothing to do with the things FairMormon talks about but it was nice just to "be with" people who were also questioning.  It's hard when you are struggling with your testimony and you are surrounded by the "I know" people, who have no understanding of what you are going through.  It's very painful to question one's testimony for so many reasons.

 

I also found The Crucible of Doubt by Terryl and Fiona Givens very helpful.  It is very intellectual....that is part of the allure.  If your son is struggling because of "intellectual doubts" then the Givens approach is just what he needs.  It really helped me.  I was in part reminded of things I already knew, validated in things I believed, and taught new ways to look at other things.  Very powerful.  I would suggest buy it for him, but don't ask him to read it.  Just leave it on his bed and never mention it again.   Again if you push, he'll likely do the opposite.  So leave the book and don't talk about it again, unless he brings it up.

 

 

 

Give the kid choices . . .okay son, it's your choice if you don't want to go to church, no problem. But you don't get to just sit at home watching TV and playing video games while the rest of the family is at church. You've got 3.5 hours, when we get home the bathrooms will be cleaned, the living room mopped, the garden weeded and lawn mowed. Better get hopping 'cuz times a wasting! :-)

 

 

 

This made me laugh.  I don't know that I would recommend this for a 14 yr old, but when one of my boys was about 11 he didn't want to go to church one day.  (Eleven is a difficult age to be in Primary...they are too young for Young Mens, but feel too old for Primary).  My husband told him he could stay home, but he wasn't going to play while we were gone.  No screens, what so ever.  My son is very obedient, and he doesn't really enjoy reading.  So he stayed home, was pretty bored and we've never had any more trouble with him going to church.  I do think this is different than the 14 yr old atheist the OP is dealing with though.

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Way to tear down an organization that is actually doing a TON of good and has helped many of people.

 

Way to cut off the conditional part of my sentence and thereby develop an excellent straw man. Yay for you. Boo for me.

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I started to comment on this topic yesterday but deleted before posting. I wanted to say that you should be glad that your son is examining his faith and working through issues. Yes, he has grasped on to some bad precepts but he is young and you do have a few remaining years to have a direct impact. I also wanted to say many things as stated by others who have posted.

 

I too think his arguments are too strong for a 14 year old; maybe a college kid. He is diving in too deep. He has some really bad influence affecting him. I would look for the root of that. If it is just from the internet, I would cut the cord. We don't really need social media as much as we think we do. We're not damaging young minds by denying them the internet. I believe long term studies will show that what we are going through now is just a social experiment and life is going to have to balance back to being disconnected/unwired (a balance anyway).

 

Although the excercise of leaving the child home to do house work is valid, it isn't acknowledging the issue of building faith and would only work a few weeks until the child finds some other argument for rebellion. Then you have a precedent for not going to church and a new issue too. Given the deep physcosis of his argument against church/religion, I doubt discipline is going to be an effective way to teach, and I think the child would view it as dicipline. 

 

As for his soul, I am a believer that life has many turns as well as ups and downs. He has time to repent and turn back toward living a life with faith. It may not be a Peter Priesthood life, but he may in fact find faith somewhere.

 

Just this weekend, I talked with a friend of my son's, who at 32 just discovered Jesus (using her term). She wasn't raised in any faith. She discovered Christ through influences and events happening in her life. Your son may do just the same. Keep praying and acting in faith yourself. Don't give up.

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First look at one big thing: He's struggled with things that we all have. No honest believer should admit they've never doubted their faith in God. That's why we call it faith and not "scientific fact".

 

Next, in regards to the specfic LDS thing: There are several books out there show that a logical person can have faith in the church. Try "Shaken Faith Syndrome" by Michael Ash, or anything by Richard Lyman Bushman or Terryl Givens. 

As for the going to church thing, let me tell you what my parents did when I doubted my childhood faith. They enrolled me in a private, Catholic school and made me attend church weekly. I was borderline consumed by the faith and not really allowed to ask any challenging questions.

 

 It could not have been more damaging to my Catholic faith if they gave me a book by Martin Luther! Forcing someone to do that, even at a young age-will make you feel better and truly drive a wedge into your childs faith. Discussion and ideas will always win over force even at that age. 

Edited by MormonGator
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Guest Godless

Whatever you end up doing, it needs to be from a place of love. Forcing the church down his throat will do more harm than good, I promise you. He's entering a very difficult time of his life, and it's going to come with great challenges for you as a parent. He's young enough that respect for you and your lifestyle needs to be an important focus if you're going to coexist together, but he's old enough to feel a sense of independence and a need to figure things out on his own. And at some point, you're going to have to let him do precisely that. Maybe not now, but within the next few years you could face the very real possibility that he's not going to come back to the flock and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

 

I wasn't quite as young as your son when I abandoned my faith, but I can tell you that it's a very confusing and emotionally turbulent experience. He needs your compassion now more than ever. Given his age, you are well within your rights to try to steer him back to the LDS church, but be careful how you do so. Speak with him, not to him. Let him know that you're willing to listen to the concerns he has. If it's something you can work with him on, that's great. Like someone else said, it may be as simple as getting the other young men in the ward to reach out to him in friendship. Ask your bishop for advice and counsel if need be. More than anything else though, get yourself mentally and emotionally prepared for the possibility that he may not stray from this path. Your relationship with him will depend on your acceptance of that.

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I've never understood the advice from certain quarters to let a child skip church if they announce a desire (or whine) to not go. Will the response be the same for children who don't want to go to school or fuss about doing chores? You don't like it so you don't have to do it?

Sure, there are those who will argue "it's different". The bottom line is he is the child and you are the parent. You get to make the rules and set the standards in your home. There is absolutely nothing wrong with church attendance being one of them. That is NOT "forcing it down his throat". Should parents just abandon taking their kids to church altogether in case it somehow, someday might or might not offend their sensibilities?

You can set the pattern of attendance and require him to go. Why help him set a pattern of being inactive? Even adults can find it easy to fall into a long pattern of inactivity as the longer you don't attend, the easier it gets to simply continue with that pattern. Once he is an adult, he can make whatever choices he wants. But for now he is a child in your home, under your rules. Whether he chooses to have belief is up to him.

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I've never understood the advice from certain quarters to let a child skip church if they announce a desire (or whine) to not go. Will the response be the same for children who don't want to go to school or fuss about doing chores? You don't like it so you don't have to do it?

Sure, there are those who will argue "it's different". The bottom line is he is the child and you are the parent. You get to make the rules and set the standards in your home. There is absolutely nothing wrong with church attendance being one of them. That is NOT "forcing it down his throat". Should parents just abandon taking their kids to church altogether in case it somehow, someday might or might not offend their sensibilities?

You can set the pattern of attendance and require him to go. Why help him set a pattern of being inactive? Even adults can find it easy to fall into a long pattern of inactivity as the longer you don't attend, the easier it gets to simply continue with that pattern. Once he is an adult, he can make whatever choices he wants. But for now he is a child in your home, under your rules. Whether he chooses to have belief is up to him.

 

Completely agree.

 

My kids know the rules in my house.  They won't have to wait until they become atheists before they realize Sunday church attendance is a rule in the house that can only be avoided through emancipation.

 

See, this is the thing - a lot of this is now reactive.  We are reacting to the event AFTER the bridge is crossed.  This should have been something that has been address LOOOOONNNGGG before.... all the way through the first question the kid had that caused doubt.  Then the gospel teaching which includes Sunday church attendance would have been reinforced and retaught within the normal safe environment of a loving home.  They don't have to have a testimony to go to Church just like they don't have to have the desire to learn to go to school.  But off they still have to go.

 

This is why I think there is something out of balance in the household that needs to be addressed.  Just like school truancy is a lot more than just disagreeing with the instruction, a 14-year-old refusing to attend church is a lot more than just "I don't believe in church anymore"... which may not even have anything to do with a belief in God or the lack thereof.

Edited by anatess
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anatess, I was going to say something similar, but figured that the - it's too late, you already messed up - speech wasn't helpful. But the point remains. If your 14 year old comes to you with this kind of stuff, what was going on in those 14 years? Were you having family night every Monday? Reading daily scriptures? Keeping the Sabbath holy in the home? Etc.? Of course the thought ends up being, really, more of a rubbing salt in the wounds sort of response, and doesn't help much with moving forward -- unless there are other younger kids in the home, in which case...yeah. Better to instill the testimony in children from the start.

 

Of course, now that I think about it, these things are all good advise anyway.

 

So to the OP: Are you having family night every Monday night without fail? Are you reading the scriptures together daily as a family? Are you keeping the Sabbath holy? Truly? Turning off the tv, video games, etc., and dedicating the day to worship? If not, then start. You've still got 4 years or so to influence this kid in these ways.

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Guest Godless

So to the OP: Are you having family night every Monday night without fail? Are you reading the scriptures together daily as a family? Are you keeping the Sabbath holy? Truly? Turning off the tv, video games, etc., and dedicating the day to worship? If not, then start. You've still got 4 years or so to influence this kid in these ways.

My family did all of those things when I was growing up. Sometimes you can do everything right and still have a curveball thrown at you.

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