Really Questioning the Garment


Sarah789
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I have been endowed for some years now, but lately have really started contemplating the garment.  It started when I was in China for several weeks in a very hot and humid place and wearing them was unbearable.  Then I had the thought, what if I was in a missionary discussion and the missionaries asked me to share my testimony of wearing the garment with the investigator/new member?  I realized then that I would have nothing positive to say, i.e. I have worn garments for all these years and have no idea what blessings it has provided me.  

 

As far as I can tell, the purpose of garments are twofold: First, to remind us of our temple covenants, and second, to keep us from breaking the law of chastity.  But is it really that necessary?  I never had chastity problems before I was endowed, and there are other things we could wear to remind us of our covenants.  Garments seem kind of like a drastic way to achieve these ends.  Just the bottoms would suffice.

 

Even now back in the U.S., in a much less humid place, I still get overheated and irritated wearing them.  They are also not lady-friendly, and I am not talking about fashion.  They bunch up under your bra so you have to adjust it often, the legs roll up when you put on pants and you have to push them back down, and you can't use feminine pads with them because they don't stay in place.  Also, I have broad shoulders so the sleeves don't cover my shoulders like they're supposed to.  I wonder if this means if I can wear sleeveless things?  My thighs are large and the leg openings are often too narrow and tight and bite into my flesh.  To order larger ones would mean something too big in the waist. This begs the argument there are so many different body types out there, they can't design garments that are comfortable for everyone.

 

The fabrics bother me too.  The nylon tops stick to my skin, the cotton tops make me feel too hot, the mesh was like wearing cardboard and incredibly itchy and also hot.  The lace chafes my back.  And don't get me started on the nursing tops.  They are absolutely horrendous.

 

I want to bring these issues up within the church to see if garments can be redesigned to better suit the needs of women and to be more comfortable, but who can I talk to?  My bishop?  Besides the fact that it is ridiculous to have to talk about my UNDERWEAR with a man old enough to be my father, what can he really do?  Just tell me to "have faith" and deal with it?

 

I am wondering if any other people have experienced these problems and how they dealt with them.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Sarah, forgive the question, but how long has it been since you have been to the temple?  

 

For me the blessing of wearing garments is that they remind me of the temple.  

 

When I find commandments that are difficult for me, or don't have a lot of meaning for me, I remember the Savior and His sacrifice for me in Gethsemane, and later suffering on the cross.  I don't always understand why I am asked to do the things I do, but what I am asked to do is so insignificant compared to what He was willing to do.  

 

As far as fabrics and comfort, do you live close enough to a temple to visit and talk to the Temple Matron?  I think that would be more comfortable and helpful than talking to "a man" as you said.  

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store.lds.org

 

After ordering garments a follow up email was sent to me to provide feedback about the garments.

There is also a "feedback" link on their contact page, you do need an lds.org account to order and to provide feedback.

 

 

The garment short bottoms that I bought in 1999 were pretty lengthy, even when I wore knee length jeans shorts the garment would sometimes show so I would roll the waist a couple times to make the length shorter. Sure enough in 2012 when I had to reorder some new bottoms online there was an option to choose shorter bottoms. Im sure the church started making them a bit shorter (about a couple of inches?) due to feedback. Yes, our church listens to the saints and works with us (within reasonable terms).

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I wear mesh garments and live in a humid place, I cant go without my garments, thats how much I have become used to them. I dont wear a wedding ring due to my line of work and I dont see a need to because my garments remind me of commitment to God and my Wife, as I carry that mentality of commitment it shows in my deamenor and behaviour out in public so if there was a random woman that found me attractive and didnt see me wearing a ring she would still be able to tell just by my behavior that Im not "on the market". This is one of the blessings for me that I have found in wearing garments.

IMHO, garments also force us to dress modestly and for us men with wives and daughters we cringe at the sight of any piece of clothing that show too much skin or show off the figures of our women. Men know what Im talking about but women dont usually understand this idea because everything to them is "cute" and "stylish".

 

The first 12 years of my marriage when my wife was still active and wearing garments, her daily wardrobe was loose fitting and very modest clothing. When she left the church she started wearing tight tank tops and tube tops, short shorts...etc...pretty much what most non-member women are wearing in this area. She explains her new way of dress as feeling free and like a Goddess! I cant help but noticing her curves on a daily basis and im not afraid to admit that I am also aroused daily as I notice her. The sad thing is that other men are noticing her too and I know satan is happy about that.

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Thanks for the responses so far.  I am trying to see what more there is to garments besides being a reminder.  We have so many other reminders in the church.  But still, I would think the bottoms would be enough.  

 

 

IMHO, garments also force us to dress modestly and for us men with wives and daughters we cringe at the sight of any piece of clothing that show too much skin or show off the figures of our women. Men know what Im talking about but women dont usually understand this idea because everything to them is "cute" and "stylish".

 

The first 12 years of my marriage when my wife was still active and wearing garments, her daily wardrobe was loose fitting and very modest clothing. When she left the church she started wearing tight tank tops and tube tops, short shorts...etc...pretty much what most non-member women are wearing in this area. She explains her new way of dress as feeling free and like a Goddess! I cant help but noticing her curves on a daily basis and im not afraid to admit that I am also aroused daily as I notice her. The sad thing is that other men are noticing her too and I know satan is happy about that.

 

This is kind of off-topic, but modesty is not about the amount of skin you are showing. Check out this article: http://qideas.org/articles/modesty-i-dont-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means/

 

Also, your comments show how there is this idea in the church that women are somehow responsible for the thoughts of men.  I am not saying it isn't a good idea to dress "modestly", as we define it, but I don't think garments have anything to do with it, as I couldn't dress "immodestly" as a teenager anyway.  In the temple, we learn that they are to be a "shield and protection", not a means to hide our tempting figures. Sure, you could argue that by hiding our figures we are making ourselves less desirable to leches and rapists, but that is speculation and not doctrine.  Your ideas reflect an attitude that women should be ashamed of their bodies. Why don't we all just wear a burka? 

 

I live 2 hours away from the closest temple.  It is hard to go because we have to find child care as well.  So yes, that is a problem.  Thanks for suggesting the temple matron, I didn't think of that.

 

I guess I am looking for a practical blessing of wearing garments.  Like tithing, Word of wisdom, church attendance, I can see and understand why.  And by living those commandments I can see the blessings.  But garments?  After living this commandment for several years, I am not sure what the blessings are.  Most of the time it feels like torture.  They say by living a commandment, you gain a testimony of it, but it has been the opposite with garments.

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There's a HUGE area between modest clothing and burkas. No, modesty is not JUST about how much skin or how much of your shape you're putting out there, but you can't deny that those things are an important part of modesty.

 

I don't think anyone here can make you understand the importance of wearing the garment. It's part of the covenants we've made. They are highly symbolic. I echo LiterateParakeet in saying it sounds like you'd benefit from spending more time at the Temple. 

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There are readily available, simple solutions to each and every one of your physical complaints about garments. For example, you do not have to wear your bra over, you can wear it under. You can have garments custom made to your proportions, at no extra cost.

I think for the most part that when someone is overly focused on the fit of the garment, the real problem actually has nothing to do with the physical aspect of wearing garments.

LiteraeParakeet and Eowyn had excellent advice.

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I am a petite 5'0" person with small boobs and big hips who lives in a hot and humid climate.  It took me a while to figure out the perfect garments for me.  This is what I did:

 

1.)  I special order my garments from the distribution center by giving them my body measurements that I get from the tailor close to my house.  They make the garments in my special Hobbit size.  They only keep the measurements for 2 years, so I have to send new measurements if I order more garments after 2 years.

 

2.)  I wear Carinessa II without a bra.  It's a camisole type with some lycra with no shaped boob part so it fits perfectly.  The lycra is enough to hold me in even when jogging.  When I wore the silk garment top, I wore a bra under the top, not over it.  Ever since I was a little kid living in the tropics, I've always worn a camisole to absorb the sweat to keep my blouse/shirt/etc in good shape.  So, I just needed to find a garment top that fit just like my camisoles.

 

3.)  I put sanitary pads onto regular panties and wear it under my garment bottoms.  I wear tampon if I don't want to wear the panties and stick a pantyliner on my garment.  The Carinessa bottom does not bunch up even when wearing skinny jeans over it.

 

4.)  As far as heat goes - our bodies have this awesome ability to acclimate.  It may take a while to get used to but eventually, our bodies do adjust.  Keeping ourselves healthy with good balanced nutrition and good hydration will give our bodies a much better ability to acclimate.

 

But see... it took me a while to figure this out but I put all my effort into figuring it out because I hold my temple covenants near and dear to my heart and I see the wearing of garments as a part of it.  I don't see it as a law of chastity thing (although that may be a purpose to it).  Rather, I see it as wearing a sacred symbol of my covenant to God.  I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic schools with all the nuns wearing penguin habits and priests wearing vestments.  The garments for me is like a Catholic nun wearing their penguin habits.  It invokes a keen sense of contradiction when a nun in a habit is acting like a thug.  When I put my garments on, it changes the way I behave.  It is like when I put on a cocktail dress - I walk straighter and with studied elegance... I don't wear a cocktail dress and walk like a thug.  That's the same as the garments - when I put it on, my attitude adjusts to match the sanctity of the garments and the covenants I made with God.  I am less likely to act like a thug.  That's how I see my garments.

Edited by anatess
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As far as I can tell, the purpose of garments are twofold: First, to remind us of our temple covenants, and second, to keep us from breaking the law of chastity.

I

I agree that they are a reminder of the covenants that we have taken.

 

I have never heard that they are to keep us from breaking the law of chastity that a load of crap. See #1 they are a reminder of the covenants that we have made.

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If the only things we do to worship God are about getting blessings in return, and ones we can see and feel in immediate ways, how can it be worship or submission of our will to His?   When we get to a place where we want to do what we are asked to do, doing things that are not immediately pleasant to us, gets a whole lot easier.  

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Guest MormonGator

I'm with the OP. In fairness, I don't particularly like wearing my garments either, just for different reasons. ;) 

 Just being honest.  Not saying I don't wear them. 

Edited by MormonGator
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I suppose it's an extremely long stretch that started at encouraging modesty and somehow ended up at sex discouragement.

/shrug.

 

One of the purposes of garments is, undoubtedly, to cover our nakedness. But even to presume that doing so is a modesty thing is unsupportable beyond simple reasoning (or, in other words, I think it's reasonably to assume that modesty plays a part in it).

 

As far as I know, anecdotally, the only deterrent garments have related to illicit sex is in the remembering of covenants we've made, one of which is no illicit sex. I'm not sure what the implication of the OP is otherwise? Garments are harder to remove than a t-shirt and tighty-whities?

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I'm with the OP. In fairness, I don't particularly like wearing my garments either, just for different reasons. ;) 

 Just being honest.  Not saying I don't wear them. 

 

I started out this way.  Took me a while (like a year!) to finally get it all figured out.  Now, I have no problem with it.

 

Well, except that I went to spend the entire summer with my mother who cooked my favorites daily... I gained 15 pounds over the summer and now my garments are too tight I feel like a burrito.  But, I don't want to buy bigger ones.  I am determined to lose the weight!

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One of the purposes of garments is, undoubtedly, to cover our nakedness. But even to presume that doing so is a modesty thing is unsupportable beyond simple reasoning (or, in other words, I think it's reasonably to assume that modesty plays a part in it).

 

As far as I know, anecdotally, the only deterrent garments have related to illicit sex is in the remembering of covenants we've made, one of which is no illicit sex. I'm not sure what the implication of the OP is otherwise? Garments are harder to remove than a t-shirt and tighty-whities?

 

Maybe because in the heat of passion and you're taking off pieces of clothing and your illicit activities partner sees your ultra unsexy underwear, they freak and run for the hills?

:D

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I was told that the wearing of the garment has served as a last line of defense of chastity, reminding the wearer of his or her covenants. How often this has been true I have no idea, and I doubt it's a primary purpose of the garment, but I think it's not an unreasonable idea.

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I am a petite 5'0" person with small boobs and big hips who lives in a hot and humid climate.  It took me a while to figure out the perfect garments for me.  This is what I did:

 

1.)  I special order my garments from the distribution center by giving them my body measurements that I get from the tailor close to my house.  They make the garments in my special Hobbit size.  They only keep the measurements for 2 years, so I have to send new measurements if I order more garments after 2 years.

 

2.)  I wear Carinessa II without a bra.  It's a camisole type with some lycra with no shaped boob part so it fits perfectly.  The lycra is enough to hold me in even when jogging.  When I wore the silk garment top, I wore a bra under the top, not over it.  Ever since I was a little kid living in the tropics, I've always worn a camisole to absorb the sweat to keep my blouse/shirt/etc in good shape.  So, I just needed to find a garment top that fit just like my camisoles.

 

3.)  I put sanitary pads onto regular panties and wear it under my garment bottoms.  I wear tampon if I don't want to wear the panties and stick a pantyliner on my garment.  The Carinessa bottom does not bunch up even when wearing skinny jeans over it.

 

4.)  As far as heat goes - our bodies have this awesome ability to acclimate.  It may take a while to get used to but eventually, our bodies do adjust.  Keeping ourselves healthy with good balanced nutrition and good hydration will give our bodies a much better ability to acclimate.

 

But see... it took me a while to figure this out but I put all my effort into figuring it out because I hold my temple covenants near and dear to my heart and I see the wearing of garments as a part of it.  I don't see it as a law of chastity thing (although that may be a purpose to it).  Rather, I see it as wearing a sacred symbol of my covenant to God.  I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic schools with all the nuns wearing penguin habits and priests wearing vestments.  The garments for me is like a Catholic nun wearing their penguin habits.  It invokes a keen sense of contradiction when a nun in a habit is acting like a thug.  When I put my garments on, it changes the way I behave.  It is like when I put on a cocktail dress - I walk straighter and with studied elegance... I don't wear a cocktail dress and walk like a thug.  That's the same as the garments - when I put it on, my attitude adjusts to match the sanctity of the garments and the covenants I made with God.  I am less likely to act like a thug.  That's how I see my garments.

 

When I got my garments, I was told to wear them under the bra.  But if you wear them over, then the symbols show through the clothing and make it look like your nipples are showing.  And unfortunately, I am too "well-endowed" to go without a bra.  I don't like the Carinessa material either, like the drisilque, it doesn't breathe. 

 

I tried wearing panties under the garment with a pad, but I got way too hot and sweaty.  And really, it is ridiculous.  Why should we have to wear two pairs of underwear?  I think they could design the garments to work with feminine pads.  Another problem too though is that garments don't sit as close to your body as panties do, so that's another reason pads feel insecure.  It just doesn't work!

 

As for bodies acclimating, I don't buy that at all.  My husband has worn them for years and is constantly over-heated.  

 

I find I behave better when I am not irritated by uncomfortable clothing.

 

 

I agree that they are a reminder of the covenants that we have taken.

 

I have never heard that they are to keep us from breaking the law of chastity that a load of crap. See #1 they are a reminder of the covenants that we have made.

 

One of those covenants being the law of chastity.

 

 

There are readily available, simple solutions to each and every one of your physical complaints about garments. For example, you do not have to wear your bra over, you can wear it under. You can have garments custom made to your proportions, at no extra cost.

I think for the most part that when someone is overly focused on the fit of the garment, the real problem actually has nothing to do with the physical aspect of wearing garments.

LiteraeParakeet and Eowyn had excellent advice.

 

I'm overly focused on the fit because it is ridiculous, impractical, and uncomfortable.  I don't have a problem with wearing special underwear, but I do have a problem when it hampers the quality of my life.  Your comment here is highly judgmental.

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There's a HUGE area between modest clothing and burkas. No, modesty is not JUST about how much skin or how much of your shape you're putting out there, but you can't deny that those things are an important part of modesty.

 

I can and do deny this.  Just compare the 1960s version of For Strength of Youth with today's version.  "Modesty" in clothing changes over time.  You think wearing capri pants over short shorts in modest?  Go back in time 200 years when showing your ankle was scandalous.  Why is it ok we show our ankle now?  Modesty in clothing has to with culture, tradition, and people's personal perceptions.  There is no doctrine on exactly how much skin we should cover up, as far as I know.  I do agree that showing too much is distracting though, and there are only certain times and places that really justify revealing clothing, but this has to do with practicality and sensibility.  Not modesty.

 

Read the article I referenced above, it says it all.

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If the only things we do to worship God are about getting blessings in return, and ones we can see and feel in immediate ways, how can it be worship or submission of our will to His?   When we get to a place where we want to do what we are asked to do, doing things that are not immediately pleasant to us, gets a whole lot easier.  

 

This is a good comment.  It's just that I have been told that following a commandment increases your testimony of it, and since it has been the reverse with garments, I'm wondering, "What gives?" Even before I started getting super annoyed with them, at most I only found them tolerable.  If the purpose really is just to serve as a reminder and a bad-behavior deterrent, then I have to say the discomfort just isn't worth it to me, because those ends can be achieved by other means.

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The garment is not "magic underwear", as the anti-Mormons and other mockers have it. We are told that the garment will function as a shield and a protection to us as long as we do not defile it, but that is not why we wear it. We wear the garment at all times because we have covenanted to do so, and we are men and women of our word. It is not always comfortable, but men and women of integrity find ways to keep their commitments rather than finding reasons to avoid keeping them.

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When I got my garments, I was told to wear them under the bra.  But if you wear them over, then the symbols show through the clothing and make it look like your nipples are showing.  And unfortunately, I am too "well-endowed" to go without a bra.  I don't like the Carinessa material either, like the drisilque, it doesn't breathe. 

 

I've never had a problem with the symbols imprinting through the clothing.   Of course, I don't buy shirts that are so thin that underwear imprints through.  Most of my camisoles and bras that I wore before endowment have lace.

 

If you have to wear a bra and it's uncomfortable to wear it over the garments, then wear it under the garments.  There's no hard and fast rule that it has to be worn over.

 

If Drisilque and Carinessa don't breathe for you, then cotton is for you and maybe in a looser size.  Drisilque and Carinessa breathe just fine for me.

 

 

 

 

I tried wearing panties under the garment with a pad, but I got way too hot and sweaty.  And really, it is ridiculous.  Why should we have to wear two pairs of underwear?  I think they could design the garments to work with feminine pads.  Another problem too though is that garments don't sit as close to your body as panties do, so that's another reason pads feel insecure.  It just doesn't work!

 

Yes, it would be great if you can find one of the existing bottom designs that is form fitting for you without making you overheat so that it can support a pad.  In the Philippines, I know of women who special order Carinessa from the States (it used to not be available there) so they can wear a pad with it as it is "spandexy" enough that it sits just like panties do... well, more like putting pads on bicycle shorts.  But a lot of women wear tampons.  Of the people I know close enough to know this detail - I'm the only pad wearing one living in the USA (except for my Filipino family and friends - they're mostly pad wearers).  Maybe you can try the tampon route?

 

 

 

As for bodies acclimating, I don't buy that at all.  My husband has worn them for years and is constantly over-heated.  

 

I grew up in the Philippines where 70 degrees is coat-weather.  I touched down in Cleveland Ohio on Christmas when I was 21 years old... it was 5 degrees with a -30 windchill.  I lived in Ohio for many years.  Yes, the body acclimates pretty good.  But, of course, it doesn't mean I like cold weather.  But it's fine because I made lots of money in Ohio.  Many many many Filipinos live in the northern part of the USA and onto Canada.  Happily.  Many Americans and Canadians retire in the Philippines.  Happily.

 

Now I'm in Florida.  My husband is a 70 in the house person.  I'm an 80 in the house person.  We compromised and set the thermostat to 75.  That only lasted for the first 2 years of our marriage.  The house has been 80 degrees for over 15 years.  My husband acclimated after he saw our electric bill in the summer with the 80 degree house.  He happily lounges in 80 degrees with his money savings.

 

In Florida summer, temps are upwards of 90, even 100.  My husband wears a tie to work.  A tie in 90 weather is like a noose transforming your shirt into an oven.  This is the guy who likes ambient temps at 70.  But, he still wears the tie.  Everyday.  And acclimated.  Because they pay him lots of money.

 

 

I find I behave better when I am not irritated by uncomfortable clothing.

 

So, I'm going to be blunt... garments can be uncomfortable.  That is true.  And I wish they come in as many designs as regular underwear comes in.  But, unfortunately it does not.  And I'm sure the Church RS Presidency knows about all this.  It would be easy if they would pay you lots of money to wear garments then it won't be as uncomfortable.  But, one thing is for certain, It will only lose its discomfort when you are ready for it to do so.

Edited by anatess
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I wear my garment because I made a covenant to do so. 

 

I absolutely hate wearing them during a menstrual cycle. But, look to my first sentence. I wear "civilian" underwear with pantyliners under the garments during my time. Depending on the bra type, I may wear a bra under or over them.

 

The fact is either you wear them or you don't. Trying to find ways to not wear them isn't going to find much support here. So, if you are here to just vent, fine. But if you are here to find support for not wearing them, I don't think you'll find that here.

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I wear my garment because I made a covenant to do so. 

 

I absolutely hate wearing them during a menstrual cycle. But, look to my first sentence. I wear "civilian" underwear with pantyliners under the garments during my time. Depending on the bra type, I may wear a bra under or over them.

 

The fact is either you wear them or you don't. Trying to find ways to not wear them isn't going to find much support here. So, if you are here to just vent, fine. But if you are here to find support for not wearing them, I don't think you'll find that here.

 

She's just venting about how uncomfortable it is.  She wanted to find out how she can get the powers that be to change or add to the available designs of the garments.

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The wearing of the holy garment is a privilege and is symbolic of covenants we have made, as well as the wearing of it being a covenant itself.

 

Like with all things asked of us by the Lord, we can either approach them with an attitude of gratitude and faith, finding ways to honor, appreciate, and respect them, or we can complain, murmur and consider them burdens.

 

This is true of paying tithing, fast offerings, service, church attendance, wearing the garment, and many other things.

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