Should I Defend My Cousin's Decision.. or Not?

[char713]

My cousin, a returned missionary, got engaged in May to a man she knew from one of the LDS dating sites. They got engaged within 8 hours of their first in-person meeting, and they had only known each other for about two months at that point. My cousin is one of the most prayerful, faithful, and thoughtful people I know, following everything to both the letter and the spirit of the law. 

 

And yet.. she sent an email out yesterday to tell the family that she and her fiance actually went and got married in a courthouse the morning after they got engaged. They kept that fact a secret for three months, from quite literally everyone. She wrote that they both prayed about it and felt good about the decision, however rushed the decision had to be. 

 

There is a little more, he is not a US citizen and is here on a visitor's visa. She didn't say when that visa's expiration date was, but that was a big part of why they rushed everything. He would have had to go home and would not have been able to afford to return. So their wedding has permitted him to apply for a green card and stay in the country. They are planning on being sealed as soon as possible, and are moving to their new home together as we speak. 

 

They have written to the First Presidency to get permission to move their sealing date up from the full-year limitation. Members of my family are already saying things like they hope their request is not granted. I will be seeing most the extended family in three weeks time for a mini-reunion, and I am somewhat dreading the conversation(s) that will certainly happen there. Neither my cousin nor any of her immediate family will be present to have their say. I know my grandparents are extremely hurt and upset, my brother is on the warpath about my cousin's new husband.. though they have never met. My grandparents are not too happy with me for being as inactive as I am, so I am not sure that my opinion will carry much weight. But I am worried that I might be the only one there to speak up for them. 

 

Is it excusable for a couple to postpone a temple sealing for the sake of being able to be married at all? If they were not so pressed for time I know it would not be. I know I should defend my dear cousin even if it were only on principle. But I want to have something more to say to all of my aunts and uncles, grandparents, cousins, etc. who are all very concerned and up-in-arms about this. 

 

Any advice is appreciated, thanks. 

 

Edit: I should add, she is not at all the kind of person to rush into anything this important. She is well-traveled, well-educated, very responsible and wise. I am not personally worried about this being a dupe of a green card marriage, though I realize from what I have written here that there might otherwise be a lot of red flags. 

Edited August 21, 2015 by char713

[hagoth]

...Is it excusable for a couple to postpone a temple sealing for the sake of being able to be married at all? If they were not so pressed for time I know it would not be. I know I should defend my dear cousin even if it were only on principle. But I want to have something more to say to all of my aunts and uncles, grandparents, cousins, etc. who are all very concerned and up-in-arms about this. 

 

Any advice is appreciated, thanks. 

 

Edit: I should add, she is not at all the kind of person to rush into anything this important. She is well-traveled, well-educated, very responsible and wise. I am not personally worried about this being a dupe of a green card marriage, though I realize from what I have written here that there might otherwise be a lot of red flags. 

This is in general how things happen in Europe. A secular marriage first, followed by a temple sealing.

 

While getting married in the temple first is the objective in many other areas, if getting married (in what seems to be a rush) for reasons of their own is something which they are confident was the right thing to do, especially since you say your cousin is "one of the most prayerful, faithful, and thoughtful people I know," rather than judge or question her, why not simply be happy for her that she is now married?

Edited August 21, 2015 by hagoth

[sxfritz]

I don't believe others have much of a say in the matter. For the sake of harmony, you should trust her and support her.

 

I personally would wait on the sealing. I suppose they want to make sure any children are covered under the covenant. 

 

My son did something very similar to your cousin although all in very slow motion and with support from others. They have yet to be sealed (although qualified, at this time).

[Guest]

I heard an interesting perspective on this recently. Sometimes when we see a marriage or engagement on Facebook or elsewhere, we might think, "Oh, they're too young!", or "They haven't dated enough, they don't know what they're getting into!" But one of the ways we can defend the family is by showing joy and support when a couple decides to get married. Basically, we should celebrate the beginning of a new family.

 

They're married now. It's not like anyone can warn her against it. I think the best thing your family could do is circle the wagons and support this couple. Give them every chance possible for their marriage to work. Don't give them more to work against them. 

[Mahone]

I've been through the immigration process from your cousins spouses perspective.

Firstly, it's been a couple of years since I had to deal with it, but I'm pretty sure there is no mechanism for transferring from a tourist visa to a marriage visa while in the country - it has to be applied for outside of the USA. It's different if he is here on a fiancee visa transferring to a marriage visa, but I'm pretty sure what they are doing is illegal, whether they know it or not. I'd caution them to check this with USCIS. If he is here illegally, its grounds for a denial and a ban when it comes to applying for a visa in the future. These bans can last from 10 years to a lifetime and believe me when I say USCIS have no sympathy.

It's also worth noting that a courthouse wedding with no real wedding photos or guests won't look good when the application for his visa is made, and he wouldn't be the first to be denied on this issue alone.

Secondly, I have a great deal of empathy for them both. When I got engaged to my wife, I was accused of using her for a green card by members of her family and members of my family were mocking and taunting my wife both behind my back and in front of me, despite having never met her. I think much of it was -because- they had never met her and our relationship was fairly unusual due to the long distance involved.

So I understand why they made the decisions they did, but I suspect they did it under a misunderstanding and no real experience of going through the visa process.

[Nelly]

The way you have written your post where they just married on a tourist visa, is illegal just like Mahone said. 

 

Fiance visas and marriage visas are delayed right now with USCIS and have been for the past few years, if he has overstayed the 90 day tourist visa, the US will see that he was seeking residency without the proper paperwork and trying to cheat the system. This can lead to some worrying, and high chance of denial (as it is a red flag). I've seen other people go through this method, all because it's "love" or "legit", doesn't make it right to do something illegal. I even saw recently where one girl had her fiance come to get married, and he was turned away at border because he thought he was able to just stay there. If you are caught lying to a CO officer at border control too, that can cause issues as well.

 

As for the support, give me them the benefit of the doubt.  It's hard when your own family turns your back on you, the people who you love the most. As time goes on they will remember the ones who do give them the benefit of the doubt, and were there for them showing unconditional love and support, because even though you can forgive, you can't forget. I'm glad I didn't give into other people's comments or silliness when I made the decision to marry my husband. It was the best decision I ever made, and I was the only one to see it was right at the time. Of course, those family members deny they ever said such mean things, or make excuses up about it, but we all make choices in our lives, sometimes we might not agree with some of the choices people make, but doesn't mean we have to judge others for it. If it causes contention with family members because you support your cousin, then they have a problem with it themselves. Ignore it, and do what you think is best. 

I've come to realized that people's attitudes are already made up when they have heard of such a situation, but then they change tunes when they see they were in the wrong. I think older generations are still not use to change or things that weren't a 'normal' process back then. 

:)

Edited August 21, 2015 by Nelly

[Just_A_Guy]

Yeah, I don't do immigration law, but the thing sounds a little off.  Just a month or so ago I read an article about a couple that met and married at BYU; the wife was a Russian national.  They honeymooned in Mexico, and when they returned to the US--oops!--ICE detained them at the border.  ICE wasn't amused at the marriage, and she was deported forthwith (here's their Facebook page).  So, I don't think the marriage itself really changes anything from an ICE standpoint.

 

I'm with the others re defending the cousin.  Before the marriage I might be raising holy hades; but at this point:  The judge has made the announcement, the rings are on the fingers--it's a done deal.  Either the groom is a stand-up guy, in which case you will want to have a good relationship with the couple; or he's an abusive dirtbag, in which case he is now deliberately trying to isolate your cousin from the rest of the family and family opprobrium will play right into his hands.  In no scenario does it now do any good to make your cousin feel any more isolation than she's already feeling.

 

As for the objective question of whether it's acceptable to delay a temple marriage to ensure that some sort of marriage happens at all--well, the issue is on appeal to the First Presidency, so I guess we'll find out. 

Edited August 21, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

I don't understand something.

 

I don't understand that they had a courthouse wedding instead of a temple wedding.  I didn't think it's that difficult to schedule a temple wedding.  You take the temple prep classes (which, if you're in Florida, you're gonna have to take the marriage classes if you're going to the courthouse anyway) and get a schedule and you're good to go.  Right?

 

As far as immigration law - the only issue is proving you married with correct intent.  With the very short history, they might have a tough time passing the interview.  So, if they plan on going on a cruise or something that requires them to exit US borders, they might want to hold off on that until the dude gets his green card.

 

As far as the family reunion, as long as all the talk is in the spirit of love it's fine even if it's a criticism of the couple's actions.  So, my suggestion is to let your opinion be heard (not to defend or attack - but simply to discuss) and steer everyone to loving, constructive discussions.  You don't need to defend the couple - you just need to remind everybody that hateful discussion is harmful, not only to the cousin, but to the rest of the family.

[Mahone]

As far as immigration law - the only issue is proving you married with correct intent. With the very short history, they might have a tough time passing the interview. So, if they plan on going on a cruise or something that requires them to exit US borders, they might want to hold off on that until the dude gets his green card.

How? If he is in the USA after the 90 day tourist visa expires and before he gets his spousal visa, he is in the USA illegally and that in most cases is grounds for a denial when he applies. He has to apply outside of the USA. It takes over a year in many cases between the date of application and getting the visa. It took me 1.5 years. That time had to be spend outside of the USA.

[NeuroTypical]

Here's a suggestion: Stay out of it.

 

Sounds like you're in a family that demands folks be in each other's business, and take sides on just about everything.  You may choose to be a part of that family culture if you wish.  But just to be clear, it's also a perfectly valid choice in my opinion, to tell 'em all to take a flying leap and you're done playing that stupid game.

 

I mean, my suggestion may seem as foreign and wrong to you as if I had suggested you punch your grandma in the face.  I get that.  But removing yourself from family politicking it remains a valid option, which some people find very attractive.

[Guest]

How? If he is in the USA after the 90 day tourist visa expires and before he gets his spousal visa, he is in the USA illegally and that in most cases is grounds for a denial when he applies. He has to apply outside of the USA. It takes over a year in many cases between the date of application and getting the visa. It took me 1.5 years. That time had to be spend outside of the USA.

 

This is not necessarily true.  You are not considered illegal if you have a pending application in DHS.  You are only considered illegal if you entered illegally or overstayed your visa and then filed an application.  A visitor's visa (tourist or business) can be issued for up to 6 months with an option to extend it for another 6 months.  The fiancé visa is the 90-day one (I didn't read the OP as the guy came here off a fiancé application, but that he is already here when they met for the first time and decided to get married).

 

Your spouse doesn't have to apply outside of the USA if you're already in the USA because you're applying for what I call a "non-quota" permanent residency.  Now, here is when it gets tricky.  The I130 application may come back stating that you are on a waiting list for a green card (Priority Date is not current).  As an example the priority date for spouses with Philippine citizenship is almost never current (too many applicants from that country, sigh) - so if this is the guy and his current visa has expired, then he is in illegal status from the time he received the I130 response (plus reasonable time to arrange for travel) to the date when he receives a response to his I485.

 

BUT, that said... if you're already married (got married while legally staying in the US), the US govt will not deny your Residency application even if there is a gap in legal status due to the Priority Date.  The family-can't-remember-what-it's-called law supercedes and the applicant will get a green card.  There's another BUT though... the circumstances of these guys' marriage can change this... overstaying that visa can put a big question mark on that whole thing and they may get the I130 approved but the I485 can still be halted.

 

Edit:  I got curious so I checked the Visa bulletin... none of the countries are current.  There's a backlog on everyone.  Matter of fact - every country is backlogged to Dec 2013, just like the Philippines.  Ugh.

Edited August 21, 2015 by anatess

[omegaseamaster75]

Sounds like a disaster to me, they are to young and dumb to realize it.

 

They should see an immigration attorney first thing, in fact they should have done that before they got married. 

[Nelly]

This is not necessarily true.  You are not considered illegal if you have a pending application in DHS.  You are only considered illegal if you entered illegally or overstayed your visa and then filed an application.  A visitor's visa (tourist or business) can be issued for up to 6 months with an option to extend it for another 6 months.  The fiancé visa is the 90-day one (I didn't read the OP as the guy came here off a fiancé application, but that he is already here when they met for the first time and decided to get married).

 

Your spouse doesn't have to apply outside of the USA if you're already in the USA because you're applying for what I call a "non-quota" permanent residency.  Now, here is when it gets tricky.  The I130 application may come back stating that you are on a waiting list for a green card (Priority Date is not current).  As an example the priority date for spouses with Philippine citizenship is almost never current (too many applicants from that country, sigh) - so if this is the guy and his current visa has expired, then he is in illegal status from the time he received the I130 response (plus reasonable time to arrange for travel) to the date when he receives a response to his I485.

 

BUT, that said... if you're already married (got married while legally staying in the US), the US govt will not deny your Residency application even if there is a gap in legal status due to the Priority Date.  The family-can't-remember-what-it's-called law supercedes and the applicant will get a green card.  There's another BUT though... the circumstances of these guys' marriage can change this... overstaying that visa can put a big question mark on that whole thing and they may get the I130 approved but the I485 can still be halted.

 

Edit:  I got curious so I checked the Visa bulletin... none of the countries are current.  There's a backlog on everyone.  Matter of fact - every country is backlogged to Dec 2013, just like the Philippines.  Ugh.

 

Immigration has changed the last few years, it's actually been backlogged since October 2012, due to the DACA act that Obama had executive order forced for USCIS to complete within a short amount of time for those folks. That means all fiance, and spousal visas were backlogged that when through the USCIS. Not only that, but now the NVC has been backlogged too because of that. 

 

From what I -remember- reading on the immigration process, you cannot come to the US to get married and adjust status. That's illegal. The OP did say they got married the day after they got engaged, so probably no fiance visa. If he was on a tourist visa, chances are it was a 90 day one if he was from a country that has the ESTA program, if not he would have waited for an appointment with the Embassy for an extended tourist visa (up to the 6 months). 

 

Adjustment of 'status' in USCIS eyes is going through the process properly from a Fiance Visa (if approved and in USA) to changing to a Spousal Visa. 

 

The only time USCIS looks at priority date is if you are a permanent resident petitioning for family members, where US citizen families have no PD and are first serve basis, or whenever they get around to your application. 

[Leah]

Yeah, I don't do immigration law, but the thing sounds a little off.  Just a month or so ago I read an article about a couple that met and married at BYU; the wife was a Russian national.  They honeymooned in Mexico, and when they returned to the US--oops!--ICE detained them at the border.  ICE wasn't amused at the marriage, and she was deported forthwith (here's their Facebook page).  So, I don't think the marriage itself really changes anything from an ICE standpoint.

 

I'm with the others re defending the cousin.  Before the marriage I might be raising holy hades; but at this point:  The judge has made the announcement, the rings are on the fingers--it's a done deal.  Either the groom is a stand-up guy, in which case you will want to have a good relationship with the couple; or he's an abusive dirtbag, in which case he is now deliberately trying to isolate your cousin from the rest of the family and family opprobrium will play right into his hands.  In no scenario does it now do any good to make your cousin feel any more isolation than she's already feeling.

 

As for the objective question of whether it's acceptable to delay a temple marriage to ensure that some sort of marriage happens at all--well, the issue is on appeal to the First Presidency, so I guess we'll find out. 

I'm also curious as to how the government will look at the fact that they only knew each other over the Internet for th short time of two months, then he came here where they actually met for the very first time and were married about 24 hours later.

[Guest]

From what I -remember- reading on the immigration process, you cannot come to the US to get married and adjust status. That's illegal. The OP did say they got married the day after they got engaged, so probably no fiance visa. If he was on a tourist visa, chances are it was a 90 day one if he was from a country that has the ESTA program, if not he would have waited for an appointment with the Embassy for an extended tourist visa (up to the 6 months). 

 

 

No fiancé visa because they got engaged within 8 hours of them meeting in person... which I assumed was here in the US because they got married the next morning.

 

Yes, you cannot come to the US to get married unless you got a K-1.  But you can come to the US on many other visa types, meet the love of your life on the streets and marry her in Vegas the next day (you can't do it in Florida - you have to have a marriage license for at least 2 weeks before the judge will marry you).

 

 

Adjustment of 'status' in USCIS eyes is going through the process properly from a Fiance Visa (if approved and in USA) to changing to a Spousal Visa. 

 

The only time USCIS looks at priority date is if you are a permanent resident petitioning for family members, where US citizen families have no PD and are first serve basis, or whenever they get around to your application. 

 

Not necessarily.  You can adjust your status through an I485 from a visitor, student, worker, etc. etc. to a resident without going through a K-3 as long as you have an I130 with a priority date (meaning it has been accepted and deemed complete).  Every I130 application has a priority date - in the case of non-citizen spouse - the priority date is the date your application was accepted by USCIS.  The priority date bounced against the cut-off date of that type of application determines the legality of your stay in the US on that application.  So, as long as your priority date is current, you can stay legally in the States even if you have an expired visa while waiting for your green card.

Edited August 21, 2015 by anatess

[char713]

Wow, thank you for all this information, everyone! It's enough to make anyone's head spin, I am grateful that I have never had to worry about immigration laws personally. My BIL is from France, and has been in the US for 8 or 9 years now. He's been married to my sister for five years, and is still struggling to make progress towards citizenship. I have lost track of where he is exactly on the timeline. They still have to answer questions now and then about the validity of their relationship (2nd child due to arrive any time!)

 

I don't know what kind of visa or other paperwork the new husband has or had. She said "visitors visa" and didn't go into any more detail. I do know that he has been living (and doing freelance photography) in Utah for roughly the last 6 months.  

 

Thanks for your advice too about how to handle the family discord. My natural reaction is to assume good intent on the new husband's part and to assume that my cousin is in her right mind about this. He is 34, she is 28.. so yes they are young, but not by some LDS standards. You all are right that the best argument is that "what's done is done" and we ought to be supportive of their marriage on principle and not force a wedge between the two of them, or between them and the rest of the family. 

 

If it is true that they could have been sealed but opted not to, then some of the concern is justified. From her letter she made it sound as if it was extremely important to have all their friends and family there,  and that that might have been factor in their decision making since arranging all those travel plans takes time. I hope this is not the case, because that would mean their priorities are not all in the right place, and that would worry me. Still not enough to get in to gossipping though.

[Just_A_Guy]

If it is true that they could have been sealed but opted not to, then some of the concern is justified. From her letter she made it sound as if it was extremely important to have all their friends and family there,  and that that might have been factor in their decision making since arranging all those travel plans takes time. I hope this is not the case, because that would mean their priorities are not all in the right place, and that would worry me. Still not enough to get in to gossipping though.

 

I dunno.  Family is important, but when you find THE one (assuming it's not some childish romantic flight of fancy)--IMHO that person (and God) should trump extended family in the unfortunate and hopefully-unlikely event that one is compelled to prioritize one over the other.

 

At least, that's what we tell all these converts whose non-member families have to wait outside while they get married in LDS temples.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[NightSG]

My BIL is from France, and has been in the US for 8 or 9 years now. He's been married to my sister for five years, and is still struggling to make progress towards citizenship. 

 

I have an associate from the UK, who is rather offended that his daughters (born here) will likely be able to vote before he can.

[NightSG]

My cousin, a returned missionary, got engaged in May to a man she knew from one of the LDS dating sites. They got engaged within 8 hours of their first in-person meeting, and they had only known each other for about two months at that point. My cousin is one of the most prayerful, faithful, and thoughtful people I know, following everything to both the letter and the spirit of the law. 

 

And yet.. she sent an email out yesterday to tell the family that she and her fiance actually went and got married in a courthouse the morning after they got engaged. They kept that fact a secret for three months, from quite literally everyone. She wrote that they both prayed about it and felt good about the decision, however rushed the decision had to be. 

 

There is a little more, he is not a US citizen and is here on a visitor's visa. She didn't say when that visa's expiration date was, but that was a big part of why they rushed everything.

 

So, he was here, but they didn't actually meet until apparently within a day or two of his visa expiring?  Sounds fishy, and I have to wonder how many others he had gone through the online courtship with and met up with before he found one that would get married the next morning.

[Backroads]

At the basics...

I think things happen where a civil marriage first happens to be the best way to go. You know, the exceptions that pop up now and then.

Married ccouples should be supported.

That said... these are some nutty details.

[Str8Shooter]

You don't have to support something you don't agree with.

[mrmarklin]

No need to defend anyone. She and her husband are adults and are responsible for their own lives.

If anything, tell the rest of the family to Mind Their Own Business.

Btw if the husband entered the country legally, there is every opportunity for him to get a green card.

[thoughts]

I would repeat, as often as necessary.   "She is a level headed, spiritually in-tune person.  I'm sure she considered all our feelings in her decision and decided what she believed she should do.   Why are we thinkng that we know better than she does what her spiritual path should be?   Yes, it is different.   Yes it was quick.  But I'm going to just love and support her.   And I'm not going to participate in any trashtalking about her or her dh.   I would like to believe that our family would always be warm and accepting to new family members despite how unconventionally they come to our family."

 

You  do not have to defend her position, to defend her right to make her own decisions.