Are There Kingdoms Above the Celestial?

[Average Joe]

Given on April 2nd 1843:

 

The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim. This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s. (D&C 130:8-9)

 

Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known; And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word. (D&C 130:10-11)

 

So those who receive a Celestial Glory will know things of inferior kingdoms by the Urim and Thummim of the earth and they will know things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms by the Urim and Thummim of their white stones. 

 

Now some may say this means the knowledge of the white stone applies to the lower two orders of the celestial kingdoms concerning the higher orders...perhaps...but the revelation pertaining to the there being two lower orders of the celestial kingdom occurred a month later on May 16th and 17th, 1843.

 

So, are there higher orders of kingdoms then the celestial?

Edited August 23, 2015 by Average Joe

[The Folk Prophet]

No.

[Average Joe]

No.

 

"No" is such a fascinatingly concise answer, could I trouble you to express a reason or two why? :)

[The Folk Prophet]

"No" is such a fascinatingly concise answer, could I trouble you to express a reason or two why? :)

Haha. Maybe I'll have some time tomorrow to be more verbose.

[cdowis]

"Higher" does not mean what you think it means in this context.  It is not being used in a comparative but in an absolute sense.  If you're unclear on what I mean, just substitute the word "highest".

 

exalted in rank, station, eminence, etc.; of exalted character or quality:

dictionary.com

Edited August 23, 2015 by cdowis

[SpiritDragon]

Hi Average Joe,

 

I love that you're in the scriptures and thinking on them.I'd agree with the simple answer 'no' to this question, but I do intend to share a little why I would say so.

 

Firstly I'd suggest that the use of higher kingdoms in this context is not referring to kingdoms higher than the Celestial Kingdom, but higher than the lower kingdoms just previously mentioned. As for the plurality of higher Kingdoms we can look at the divisions within the celestial kingdom as multiple kingdoms in their own right or we can also understand that there are numerous other worlds that have received a Celestial Glory and are therefore also "Higher Kingdoms" or kingdoms of a higher/highest order (as I believe cdowis was pointing out).

 

Secondly I'd take into account the rest of the scriptural record and teachings of the prophets. Heavenly Father is a Celestial being as is Christ and we know that God is the "most high". Further the faithful will be joint heirs and have all that the Father hath. It doesn't add up that there are kingdoms higher in glory than God himself.

[Josiah]

There are many kingdoms within one higher (celestial) order of kingdoms.

[Blackmarch]

Given on April 2nd 1843:

The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim. This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s. (D&C 130:8-9)

Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known; And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word. (D&C 130:10-11)

So those who receive a Celestial Glory will know things of inferior kingdoms by the Urim and Thummim of the earth and they will know things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms by the Urim and Thummim of their white stones.

Now some may say this means the knowledge of the white stone applies to the lower two orders of the celestial kingdoms concerning the higher orders...perhaps...but the revelation pertaining to the there being two lower orders of the celestial kingdom occurred a month later on May 16th and 17th, 1843.

So, are there higher orders of kingdoms then the celestial?

We have not been told of any.

[Average Joe]

"Higher" does not mean what you think it means in this context.  It is not being used in a comparative but in an absolute sense.  If you're unclear on what I mean, just substitute the word "highest".

 

exalted in rank, station, eminence, etc.; of exalted character or quality:

dictionary.com

 

The question was stated the way it was to provoke thoughtful response. I can accept your use of highest instead of higher however you failed to explain how higher or highest relates to the word Kingdoms in this context since those receiving the white stone are already in the highest level of the celestial kingdom. Any thoughts on this? :)

[SpiritDragon]

The question was stated the way it was to provoke thoughtful response. I can accept your use of highest instead of higher however you failed to explain how higher or highest relates to the word Kingdoms in this context since those receiving the white stone are already in the highest level of the celestial kingdom. Any thoughts on this? :)

 

I picture it this way with my current understanding - in the universe there are countless planets, countless systems of planets. Among these billions of them are likely to be exalted. So now when this earth becomes exalted those dwelling thereon can use the Urim and Thummim to learn of what is happening on other kingdoms of this "higher" order. And they can use them to see what is happening on planets or kingdoms of lower orders.

[The Folk Prophet]

Eternal progression means that glory is ever increasing. Being in the celestial kingdom means a fullness if joy, power, dominion, etc. There is no omnipotence greater than "omni" potence. But glory is ever increasing, so certainly there are those exalted beyond others. Our Father in heaven will always be our God, our Father, and we will always honor and give glory to him. But all of this is within the scope of what is the celestial kingdom.

The kingdoms of glory are, realistically, less places than they are states. (Not to say there isn't location attached...as in we know this world will be the "place").

The state of exaltation is the highest because it allows for eternal increase.

[Average Joe]

Firstly I'd suggest that the use of higher kingdoms in this context is not referring to kingdoms higher than the Celestial Kingdom, but higher than the lower kingdoms just previously mentioned. As for the plurality of higher Kingdoms we can look at the divisions within the celestial kingdom as multiple kingdoms in their own right or we can also understand that there are numerous other worlds that have received a Celestial Glory and are therefore also "Higher Kingdoms" or kingdoms of a higher/highest order (as I believe cdowis was pointing out).

 

Thanks for the input :) Your stating that this revelation foreshadowed the revelation on 3 levels to the celestial kingdom as noted in my intro. This may be true. I'm more inclined to believe your example of other celestialized worlds being part of the higher/highest kingdoms

 

 

 

Yes,Heavenly Father is the most high to us, but as man now is, God once was. As God now is man may become. So, God, having been mortal had a Heavenly Father who was [is] the most high to him.

 

What your truly talking about is levels: a God, his Christ, his Holy Ghost and his Adam etc...

and layers: a God who has yet to create a world, a God who has created a world, a God who has created worlds, and a God whose heirs have created worlds, etc...

 

In this sense their are Kingdoms of glory above the Father, even as the Father will always be above the Heir's kingdom.

 

All these things occur within the celestial kingdom. :) 

[Average Joe]

There are many kingdoms within one higher (celestial) order of kingdoms.

Yes there are - In my Father's house there are many mansions  :)

[Average Joe]

We have not been told of any.

 

We have only been told the end goal of this mortality.

 

We know of the terrestrial, and telestial kingdoms but we know almost nothing about them except who will consigned to them and minister to them. 

 

We know there there are two lower levels to the celestial kingdom but don't know who will be consigned to them or what they will be like. :)

[Average Joe]

I picture it this way with my current understanding - in the universe there are countless planets, countless systems of planets. Among these billions of them are likely to be exalted. So now when this earth becomes exalted those dwelling thereon can use the Urim and Thummim to learn of what is happening on other kingdoms of this "higher" order. And they can use them to see what is happening on planets or kingdoms of lower orders.

 

This is certainly true. Thank you. :) 

[Average Joe]

Eternal progression means that glory is ever increasing. Being in the celestial kingdom means a fullness if joy, power, dominion, etc. There is no omnipotence greater than "omni" potence. But glory is ever increasing, so certainly there are those exalted beyond others. Our Father in heaven will always be our God, our Father, and we will always honor and give glory to him. But all of this is within the scope of what is the celestial kingdom.

The kingdoms of glory are, realistically, less places than they are states. (Not to say there isn't location attached...as in we know this world will be the "place").

The state of exaltation is the highest because it allows for eternal increase.

 

Certainly glory/intelligence is a state. This answer pretty much aligns with a response I gave to Spiritdragon in this thread. 

 

I do find it interesting that omnipotence is dependent on intelligence which is bound in the earth and a stone, Even as seership is bound in stones...which perhaps strays in a different direction... oh, and thanks for the verbose response  

[The Folk Prophet]

 seership is bound in stones

 

Bound?

[SpiritDragon]

Thanks for the input :) Your stating that this revelation foreshadowed the revelation on 3 levels to the celestial kingdom as noted in my intro. This may be true. I'm more inclined to believe your example of other celestialized worlds being part of the higher/highest kingdoms

 

 

 

Yes,Heavenly Father is the most high to us, but as man now is, God once was. As God now is man may become. So, God, having been mortal had a Heavenly Father who was [is] the most high to him.

 

What your truly talking about is levels: a God, his Christ, his Holy Ghost and his Adam etc...

and layers: a God who has yet to create a world, a God who has created a world, a God who has created worlds, and a God whose heirs have created worlds, etc...

 

In this sense their are Kingdoms of glory above the Father, even as the Father will always be above the Heir's kingdom.

 

All these things occur within the celestial kingdom. :)

 

I don't see it exactly the same way personally. I don't see the hierarchy such that there is greater than God. There is before God (our Father) sure (or at least possibly, it's up for debate) but that doesn't mean higher or greater or more exalted or more glorious.... if anything just more experienced. We are told that we will inherit all the father hath and be joint heirs with Christ. We will become One with God should we be exalted. My personal view is that when any being goes on to exaltation they become One with the many who "is" God. All the power and glory is shared - kind of like a united order...but that wouldn't have anything to do with why it was practiced now would it  :)

[Average Joe]

Bound?

as being bound up in or operative through [at least in part] seer stones and Urim and Thummims of ancient Israel, Ancient Americas, and those that Joseph used. . 

[Traveler]

I am thinking that as we progress in eternity we will always be reaching new heights and that perhaps we could think that new heights can equate to higher kingdoms - but I do not think it will be in terms of personal achievement or covenants or individual anything but in acting as one (especially our wives and husbands) with others.

[The Folk Prophet]

as being bound up in or operative through [at least in part] seer stones and Urim and Thummims of ancient Israel, Ancient Americas, and those that Joseph used. . 

 

If you look at the history of Joseph's use of one, he clearly was not continually bound to it. It was a tool he used as he learned. Later, he had no need and gave it up. He was still a seer.

[Average Joe]

I don't see it exactly the same way personally. I don't see the hierarchy such that there is greater than God. There is before God (our Father) sure (or at least possibly, it's up for debate) but that doesn't mean higher or greater or more exalted or more glorious.... if anything just more experienced. We are told that we will inherit all the father hath and be joint heirs with Christ. We will become One with God should we be exalted. My personal view is that when any being goes on to exaltation they become One with the many who "is" God. All the power and glory is shared - kind of like a united order...but that wouldn't have anything to do with why it was practiced now would it  :)

 

Interesting take.

 

As for the United Order, yes all things were to be in common but it was through the direction of the priesthood, and priesthood, although all may share "equally" according to need, is still a hierarchy of authority.  

 

Now the scriptures tell us a couple of things worth considering here:

 

Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created. (D&C 29:34)

 

And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. (Hebrews 7:7)

 

With those two things in mind lets consider the teachings of Joseph Smith:

 

"I once asked a learned Jew, 'If the Hebrew language compels us to render all words ending in heim in the plural, why not render the first Eloheim plural?' He replied, 'That is the rule with few exceptions; but in this case it would ruin the Bible.' He acknowledged I was right.... In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through -- 'Gods'. The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take that view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfection of the Gods." Joseph Smith, History of the Church 6:474-476

 

Revelation often results after wrestling with ideas, and Joseph’s struggle with the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1 seems to have yielded six concepts, which he expressed either in the King Follett Discourse or in a parallel discourse he gave on June 16, 1844.

 

The six concepts are:

 

1. The creation was effected, not “out of nothing” but from preexisting matter.

2. In the very beginning, there was a plurality of Gods.

3. Among this plurality, there was a head God (or there were head Gods).

4. These Gods met in a grand council.

5. These Gods in council appointed one God over us.

 

6. The idea of a plurality of Gods, which is most easily seen “at the beginning,” is found throughout the Bible.

 

This shows hierarchy in Godhood wherein the greater [the heads of the Gods] bless [appointed] the lesser God over us.

[The Folk Prophet]

I think we need to separate the usage of Gods (or gods) and the reality of being exalted and/or in the Celestial Kingdom. We can take Adam/Michael as a simple and easy example. We know he helped create the earth and is therefore one of the "gods" spoken of. But he was not exalted or in the Celestial Kingdom, but had need to come to earth, get a body, and work out his exaltation, the same as all. Christ is another example -- and even a stronger one -- he was, without question, the God of the Old Testament, the God who created the world, etc., and yet he also had to come to earth to gain a body, etc., in order to achieve a fully exalted state.

 

I think it must therefore likely be understood that qualifying, at least in scriptural uses in some cases, as a "god", is not equivalent to having attained Celestial glory.

[Average Joe]

If you look at the history of Joseph's use of one, he clearly was not continually bound to it. It was a tool he used as he learned. Later, he had no need and gave it up. He was still a seer.

 

True, he outgrew the need, however it was necessary in the beginning of his translations was it not? Therefore, it is also true that his seership was also through the use of the stone. :)

 

The seer stone and Urim and Thummim had the power bound/placed/put within them to be used in much the same sense as the Liahona - it required faith and works as Oliver Cowdery found out.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Average Joe

[Average Joe]

I think it must therefore likely be understood that qualifying, at least in scriptural uses in some cases, as a "god", is not equivalent to having attained Celestial glory.

 

I agree totally with this. As I commented to SpiritDragon elsewhere in this thread:

 

"Yes,Heavenly Father is the most high to us, but as man now is, God once was. As God now is man may become. So, God, having been mortal had a Heavenly Father who was [is] the most high to him."

 

Then lets consider other examples of heavenly hierarchy for you:

 

And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. (Mark 10: 35-40)

 

and:

 

“Behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth” (Doctrine and Covenants 29:26).

 

The Lord promised Adam great blessings: “I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever” (Doctrine and Covenants 107:55).

 

“There has been a chain of authority and power from Adam down to the present time. The Priesthood was first given to Adam; he obtained the First Presidency, and held the keys of it from generation to generation. He obtained it in the Creation, before the world was formed, as in Genesis 1:26, 27, 28. He had dominion given him over every living creature. He is Michael the Archangel, spoken of in the Scriptures. Then to Noah, who is [the angel] Gabriel; he stands next in authority to Adam in the Priesthood; he was called of God to this office, and was the father of all living in his day, and to him was given the dominion. These men held keys first on earth, and then in heaven. “The Priesthood is an everlasting principle, and existed with God from eternity, and will to eternity, without beginning of days or end of years [see Joseph Smith Translation, Hebrews 7:3]. The keys have to be brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent. When they are revealed from heaven, it is by Adam’s authority." The Everlasting Priesthood,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, (2007),101–13

 

So, by these few examples, we see that hierarchy and authority exists in resurrected beings.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Average Joe