400 religious leaders to resign -- Ashley Madison Hack


prisonchaplain
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There's a part of me that is deeply saddened.  Ministers, deacons, and other clergy--and most likely bishops, home teachers, etc., as well, will have to resign their callings because they gave into the lure of sinful sexual encounters via a supposedly secure website.  Similarly, there is an organization called The Clergy Project that aims to help religious leaders who no longer believe in God to transition out of spiritual service.  On the LDS side, most here are well aware that there are organizations that aim to help LDS do the same (some Evangelical, others secular).

What to make of these incidents?  Besides sadness, part of me feels anger.  How dare Satan and his minions target God's choice servants?!  Then again, of course they do.  And, here's the rub:  If you engage in sexual immorality, or if you do not believe in God (or the church's doctrine), it is time to leave.  Christian churches have ways and means of offering restoration/reconciliation, should that be sought out.  However, step one is honesty.  Such folk must leave.  

As believers what are we to do with this news?  Pessimism?  Cynicism?  The better path would be to fall to our knees and intercede on behalf of those who lead us.

 

 

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/slices/expert-400-church-leaders-will-resign-sunday-because-names-surfaced-ashley-madison-hack

Edited by prisonchaplain
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I had to LOL at the "if you no longer believe in God (or the church's doctrine) its time to leave!  As our local Church of England Vicar, who is also a member of the Church of England's General Synod, has a very liberal view on God, Jesus and the bible! So far as to say its "all some nice stories to make you feel better and help you get through life kinda views"!!

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Sometimes my heart is so heavy with the terrible things in this world. Whoever started that website will have much to answer for, I'm sure, but then no one held a gun to their clients' heads. 

It's the same old sins that have been around since the beginning of time. The Internet sure makes them easier to commit, though. 

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It is an interesting question if and how the church is using that list.  I would hope, at the very least, it is doing a data match with church leaders.

 

I don't suppose any of us has any information on that, but I'm sure that the church would consider that confidential information.

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Can anyone give me any reason to believe that the scum who stole and published that list did not add names of innocent people? Why should I trust the word of those who have already shown themselves to be criminals?

 

I have little patience for the argument that this should scare us all because it might unmask us all. That's an argument to use with cockroaches. But seeing how this information has already destroyed the credibility and employability of many and has resulted in at least a few suicides, I want some sort of assurance that the people who we mobsters with pitchforks are so righteously crucifying are actually guilty of the action with which they are charged.

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That's the thing with the internet, the anonymity. No physical proof that they did, no physical proof that they didn't. Those with a clear conscience have no reason strong enough to take their own lives. If their spouses and friends take the hacker's word over theirs, then its a problem that may mean the end of the relationship, but still not a valid reason to end themselves. 

Edited by char713
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I am reminded of how the prophets said your sins will be shouted from the rooftops.  I think that one was spot on.

 

I do weep for the next generations who have such wickedness at their fingertips.  Pornography and pick up sites just a few keystrokes away.  Temptation is far more easily found today.

 

But, I also heard that most of the female accounts (upwards of 90%) were fake, so I suspect a lot of men were living a fantasy, but not actually having affairs.  That said, I think this is really Satan's plan.  Not to have men fall into sexual sin, but to turn away from real fulfilling relationships and seeking fantasies.  In this way, I think Facebook or video games can be just as damaging. We need real relationships will real people.   I think I am going to take my family hiking this weekend.

Edited by bytebear
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Guest LiterateParakeet

I think Vort makes a good point, that we should not blindly trust hackers who have already proven themselves dishonest.

 

In some of the cases (no I'm not keeping track, LOL!), there are credit card records.  That could be proof for some.  

 

I can't help but think of the scripture that says something about in the last days their sins shall be shouted from the roof tops.  Do you know which one I mean?  

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The implication of this story is that those exposed would choose to resign.  I suppose an innocent person might do so to avoid the heartache of proving innocence.  However, another reality is that far too many are living a double life.

 

If my name were put on that list as a lie...I would fight back.  I would not let people believe that about me without a fight.  

You will appreciate this story PC, when I worked as a CO (I say Correctional Officer, some people say prison guard...LOL).  An inmate got mad at me because I gave him a ticket.  And he accused me of having sexual relations with him.  

Never mind that this guy had a record of being caught lying, and my record was clean.  The brass took it seriously, and I was moved to a different cell block and they had an "investigation".  It was humiliating.  I was mortified.  But my friends stood by me.  And in the end, one of the Labor Union Reps (even though I was not a member of the Union) helped me out.  He met with me and explained how the Brass were breaking their own policies by keeping their so called investigation going on to long.  He went with me and we talked to the Lieutenant and got the case closed.  I kept my job.  

I recognize with the Ashley Madison thing is likely more complicated for an innocent person to fight....you might need a lawyer and such....but I would not go down quietly.  If I couldn't afford a lawyer to fight it in court, I would fight in the media and in social media.  I would try and help people see if this happened to me, it could happen to you!  

 

I haven't been following this case (the only person I know who was on the list was Josh Duggar who confessed to being a huge hypocrite-his words-and an adulterer).  I don't know of anyone claiming their name being on the list was a lie.

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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Can anyone give me any reason to believe that the scum who stole and published that list did not add names of innocent people? Why should I trust the word of those who have already shown themselves to be criminals?

Logically you make sense Vort. But I haven't yet seen a claim to innocence by anyone caught up by this. It's also not something that lines up with the group's goals. They wanted to punch the company that runs Ashley Madison right in the gut, simply revealing their clientele was a fantastic way to do it. Putting in false names would be counterproductive to their goal.

It really seems to me we have to become more self disciplined as technology opens up more horizons to us. 

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Can anyone give me any reason to believe that the scum who stole and published that list did not add names of innocent people? Why should I trust the word of those who have already shown themselves to be criminals?

 

I can give you a very powerful reason.   I haven't heard anyone "outed" by this hack, claim they are innocent.  I've seen a news story of suicides out of Canada. I've read about people in the 'public image improvement' and 'public damage control' industries have seen an unmanageable spike in urgent requests for their services.  I'm hearing about people resigning from positions of trust.  But I haven't heard anyone claim innocence yet.

 

Some of satans best work is happening with this news item.  Shame is one of his best weapons, far more useful here than lies could ever hope to be.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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I had to LOL at the "if you no longer believe in God (or the church's doctrine) its time to leave!  As our local Church of England Vicar, who is also a member of the Church of England's General Synod, has a very liberal view on God, Jesus and the bible! So far as to say its "all some nice stories to make you feel better and help you get through life kinda views"!!

 

There are a few denominations in which the orthodox are the renegades. 

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That's the thing with the internet, the anonymity. No physical proof that they did, no physical proof that they didn't. Those with a clear conscience have no reason strong enough to take their own lives. If their spouses and friends take the hacker's word over theirs, then its a problem that may mean the end of the relationship, but still not a valid reason to end themselves. 

 

For people who spend several days a month struggling with a strong desire to end themselves over NORMAL life ups and downs, a false accusation along these lines and the associated loss of relationships, jobs and prestige would likely be more than enough to push them over the edge.

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In some of the cases (no I'm not keeping track, LOL!), there are credit card records.  That could be proof for some.

 

Credit cards or credit card records can be stolen quite easily. If you wanted to commit adultery and not endanger your own name, what better way than to sign up under someone else's name and account?

 

After an initial impulsive response of "serves them right", I immediately thought: What if my name showed up there? Would my wife believe me that I didn't do it? Would anyone?

 

Your experience sounds like a nightmare. I am happy it turned out well.

 

I don't know of anyone claiming their name being on the list was a lie.

 

 

Logically you make sense Vort. But I haven't yet seen a claim to innocence by anyone caught up by this.

 

 

I can give you a very powerful reason.   I haven't heard anyone "outed" by this hack, claim they are innocent.

 

A couple of days ago, I read about a preacher who claimed innocence. I just now googled "ashley madison false accusation" and found these:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3210508/It-s-modern-witch-hunt-Woman-reveals-marriage-career-destroyed-falsely-accused-Ashley-Madison-adulterer.html

 

http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/ashley-madison-adulterer-accusation

 

http://www.salon.com/2015/08/20/my_fake_ashley_madison_affair_someone_else_used_my_email_address_to_create_an_account_so_why_do_i_feel_so_guilty/

 

http://www.detroitnewstime.com/regional/98884-ashley-madison-hack-false-victim-reveals-how-her-marriage-was-almost-destroyed.html (Same person as the first link, I think)

 

http://observer.com/2015/04/how-it-feels-to-be-falsely-accused/ (A famous person)

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It's already been revealed that there were nearly no real women on Ashley Madison.  Most of these anecdotal accounts of false victims seem to be female.  It's an open question whether false men were on there.  However, I would be surprised if even one of the 400 religious leaders expected to resign turned out to be a false victim. 

 

The bigger picture for me is that any Christ-follower living a double life should repent, and, if needed, seek restoration/reconciliation with their families and their faith communities.  Those who lead/teach face an even higher burden.

 

I do hope that my comments on this string are never construed as approval for the hackers, or their methods. 

Edited by prisonchaplain
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There's a part of me that is deeply saddened.  ...  The better path would be to fall to our knees and intercede on behalf of those who lead us.

 

 

If you are saddened when your brothers and sisters fall and suffer for their behavior, I certainly agree it's something to feel saddened about.  If by "intercede" you mean pray for the Lord to strengthen our leaders against temptation, or to forgive our leaders who have fallen and have truly repented, then I also agree.  Is this what you were thinking when you wrote?

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Fair enough Vort.  I think my overall point is valid though, even if it's not a direct answer to your question.  Based on the suicides and other things I mentioned, it seem pretty obvious that at least a percentage of the leak is true.   

 

The Ashley Madison thing impacts me very little, because of clean livin'.  What I'm hearing from the leak isn't surprising me, because as my wife once brilliantly summarized, I trust God to act like God, and man to act like man.  Even if I find out someone I know has been 'outed', same answer.  You don't get to sit in a bishopric meeting without coming to the realization that sin impacts us all - including the folks you'd not expect.

 

If some of it is false, I hope those unjustly accused are able to clear their name.  

 

For those impacted - some guidance from 2 Corinthians 7:  Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

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If you are saddened when your brothers and sisters fall and suffer for their behavior, I certainly agree it's something to feel saddened about.  If by "intercede" you mean pray for the Lord to strengthen our leaders against temptation, or to forgive our leaders who have fallen and have truly repented, then I also agree.  Is this what you were thinking when you wrote?

 

Spot on.  Lord protect our current leaders FROM temptation...that would be the lion's share.  Those I know, who have stumbled--yes I would pray that God strengthen them as they journey towards restoration.  Perhaps the greater part of my sadness is that there were many who sensed the call to leadership, and then put that precious gift up in exchange for some very temporal gratification.  Then again, I am no fool.  I must also pray for my own protection.  Truly, there but for God's daily attending grace, would go I.

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There's a part of me that is deeply saddened. Ministers, deacons, and other clergy--and most likely bishops, home teachers, etc., as well, will have to resign their callings because they gave into the lure of sinful sexual encounters via a supposedly secure website. Similarly, there is an organization called The Clergy Project that aims to help religious leaders who no longer believe in God to transition out of spiritual service. On the LDS side, most here are well aware that there are organizations that aim to help LDS do the same (some Evangelical, others secular).

What to make of these incidents? Besides sadness, part of me feels anger. How dare Satan and his minions target God's choice servants?! Then again, of course they do. And, here's the rub: If you engage in sexual immorality, or if you do not believe in God (or the church's doctrine), it is time to leave. Christian churches have ways and means of offering restoration/reconciliation, should that be sought out. However, step one is honesty. Such folk must leave.

As believers what are we to do with this news? Pessimism? Cynicism? The better path would be to fall to our knees and intercede on behalf of those who lead us.

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/slices/expert-400-church-leaders-will-resign-sunday-because-names-surfaced-ashley-madison-hack

Leave or seek repentance. Our duty is to forgive and help the wounded.
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Leave or seek repentance. Our duty is to forgive and help the wounded.

 

I just read a great summary of this approach from a church:  We do not shoot our wounded.  Neither do we place them back on the front lines, before they have been healed/restored.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

???

 

Wouldn't Satan prefer we have no shame?

 

 

It depends on how you define shame.  Some people (like me) see shame as something that separates you from God, while guilt makes you want to change.  

 

An example of where shame could be a powerful tool for Satan is in victims of sexual assault.  They commonly feel terrible shame which can separate them from God.

 

Shame in the context of the Ashley Madison Hack could mean they feel bad that they got caught.  Guilt is more of a sign that they feel they did something wrong, Godly sorrow.  Two very different emotions, IMO.  But  I realize some people see the two words as nearly interchangeable.  

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???

 

Wouldn't Satan prefer we have no shame?

 

Terms get vague - here's what I mean.  

 

From 2 Corinthians 7:  Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

 

Shame and guilt are meant to be used to drive one to repent.  When that's done, when shame and guilt make up Godly sorrow, they will then leave and aren't around any more.  When it's not done, you've got shame as the sorrow of the world.  It tries to define you.  If successful, you buy into what shame tells you, and your entire life is seen through this false filter.  It colors what you believe about yourself and others, what you feel, and how you act.  

 

I trust you can see which sort of shame old scratch prefers. And why he can use the truth to work his ends here.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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It depends on how you define shame.  Some people (like me) see shame as something that separates you from God, while guilt makes you want to change.  

 

An example of where shame could be a powerful tool for Satan is in victims of sexual assault.  They commonly feel terrible shame which can separate them from God.

 

Shame in the context of the Ashley Madison Hack could mean they feel bad that they got caught.  Guilt is more of a sign that they feel they did something wrong, Godly sorrow.  Two very different emotions, IMO.  But  I realize some people see the two words as nearly interchangeable.  

 

Terms get vague - here's what I mean.  

 

From 2 Corinthians 7:  Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

 

Shame and guilt are meant to be used to drive one to repent.  When that's done, when shame and guilt make up Godly sorrow, they will then leave and aren't around any more.  When it's not done, you've got shame as the sorrow of the world.  It tries to define you.  If successful, you buy into what shame tells you, and your entire life is seen through this false filter.  It colors what you believe about yourself and others, what you feel, and how you act.  

 

I trust you can see which sort of shame old scratch prefers. And why he can use the truth to work his ends here.

 

Right. But wouldn't Satan prefer we feel no shame?

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